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Re: everybody wants a piece of Microsoft's monopoly
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

It is intruiging to observe how alarmed certain companies get about Microsoft's methods (as though sellers of bundled MS software couldn't themselves just say "no" to such business proposals, without the government's assistance), and how Billg (and his legal advisors) deal with the govmt as they get further and more precisely investigated. It should be instructive and inspiring for everyone else, when MS wins, to see how (if) they do it. I would sympathize, but Billg is a great believer in "lawful" ways of doing things, often cooperating in regard of hiring practices and monopoly watch-dogs, among other things, so it is of great interest to me to see how he deals with these "lawful" types who believe they have cause to stick it to him. 'Tis a fine line he walks, between supporting the methods of The Law, using its services, and also being highly successful in beyond the limits set forth in the Official U.S. Rules for Success, Section 0.123, p. 26.930. Anyway, it's all "for the customer", you know. .. Blanc

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by 71073979＠cyberbundle.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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We have to keep our keys for HOW long???
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

* The Wall Street Journal reported in July that the Environmental Protection Agency has ordered 71 mining companies in Idaho to submit copies of all of the paperwork they have produced in the last 117 years. EPA says it needs the information to help determine who is responsible for lead pollution in Idaho's Silver Valley. According to the president of one firm, the order was so crazy that the EPA investigators "must not live on this planet." Another pointed out that there are not enough copy machines in the region to handle the work. To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html (That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. Just text. Deal with it.)

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Re: puff pieces vs tough crypto issues (Re: Singapore TOILET ALERT)
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam Back wrote: > No offense Declan, but what has this got to do with cypherpunks, > cryptography, crypto politics etc? (This is not a perrygram, this is > a message saying I found that particular article uninteresting). Adam, I believe that Declan may be trying to keep things in perspective, by reminding us who the actual users of "widespread crypto" will be, GAK or no GAK. As a matter of fact, Declan and I are counting on you to explain the issues involved to our good friend and neighbor, Debbie (details below), and get back to us with her thoughts on the crypto issues which are relevant, from her perspective. * At a celebrity auction in May, Debbie Dacoba of Paw Paw, Mich., bid $8,625 for a pair of Mr. Ed's horseshoes and was so overcome with joy when she won that she had to retreat to the ladies' room for 20 minutes until she stopped crying. Later she told a reporter that she would keep the horseshoes in plastic because specks of brown residue in the nail holes "could be manure, which I hope it is because then I have a piece of him." ManureMonger ~~~~~~~~~~~~ To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html (That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. Just text. Deal with it.)

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by mktg＠inet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: PGP 5.5 CMR/GAK: a possible solution
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

mark(a)unicorn.com writes: > When a customer wishes to send email to Joe, he would use this public key. > When encrypting, PGP would detect the tag and put up a dialog box pointing > out that this is a corporate key and if they click on the 'confidential' > button it will be encrypted to the user's personal key prior to encrypting > to the corporate key (by which I mean superencryption, to avoid traffic > analysis). The default would be not to superencrypt; and as a side effect > this system would be compatible with any version of PGP for > non-confidential mail (assuming that version understands the encryption > algorithms in use). Neat, automatic superencryption. Could the same idea work with the Pgp method with the CMR key? You would encrypt to the user first, then reencrypt to the combination of user and CMR key. Would this prevent GAK?

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PGP 5.5 and the corporate environment
by Roger J Jones 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Just a small aside. Our help desk handles about 50 to 75 "I forgot my password" requests per day. This might be one small motivating factor why corporations desire an alternative method to recover encrypted files.

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Re: Bill Gates, the Bully Savior
by Paul Spirito 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:34 PM 10/22/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Or it's like buying a Ford Mustang that comes with brown carpets. Auto >manufacturers "bundle" lots of things with their cars... Where's the DoJ >when we need them?!? Not sure where I stand on this. An OS is more like a highway than a car. Or, better, a rail track -- since it imposes severe compatibility requirements on those who want to utilize it. Imagine that someone owned the rail track standard & had the exclusive IP-rights to manufacture it. Non-standard tracks exist, but they don't go nearly as many places. Then the company uses its position as owner of the tracks to demand... Oh screw it. I don't feel like going down analogy road any further. Detail is the enemy of ideology, & the significant detail re: Microsoft is the rare & happy (for Bill Gates) character of its business that it is more important to have a standard OS than to have a quality OS. Therein lies his billions, & it seems to me reasonable to scrutinize attempts to parlay that counter-ordinary-market reality into dominance in other areas. Perhaps this could be settled as the online service spat was: bundle Netscape with Win98 (& Opera, Arachne &c). Or perhaps the US could nationalize Windows. Whoo-hoo! Therein lies a Plan... Paul Her name was Julie, she wore Batman sneakers, And she laughed when she sang, "Money can't buy me love!" North of Petaluma where the 1 meets the 101 -- Oh man, we took a lot of drugs...

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Re: PGP Employee on MKR
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP > AWAY FROM GAK. FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT > IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR > ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! FORCING ENCRYPTION TO > MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE STEP AWAY FROM GAK!! > !!!*FORCING ENCRYPTION TO MULTIPLE KEYS FOR ONE RECIPIENT IS ONE > STEP AWAY FROM GAK*!!! Mark, just remove the self signature on the user key. The message recovery key packet goes away! That's all you have to do. Is that so tough? This big threat, the dangerous CMR key, turns out to take two seconds of user actions to be destroyed. Something this easy to turn off will never be good enough for GAK. People say, "Oh, but then the government will make everybody run the policy enforcer and reject any mail not encryped to the government." First, if they were going to do this, they could do it with old versions of PGP too. Multiple recipients have been around practically forever. Second, it's a ridiculous idea which ignores how email works. More and more people are running systems at home which could send and receive SMTP mail. The trend is towards home servers which support the multiple home computers people will have in the next decade. There's no way to make those people run filters! People say, "Oh, but they'll make it illegal to receive mail at home without going through an ISP." I'm serious, this has actually been suggested on this list. It has to be suggested, because it's the only way this incredibly stupid scenario could be made to work. I can only assume that people are blinded by emotions or they wouldn't suggest such a bizarre idea. Making it illegal to implement probably the most widely used internet protocol package (email) would be a totally unprecedented, invasive, unjustifiable and unenforcable intervention by government. If the only way the government can enforce GAK is by making it illegal for people to receive email through paths which don't pass through government filters we can all rest easy, because it will never happen. Even for the cases where filtering is done (like businesses), there are easy countermeasures, described by no other than Jon Callas, PGP's chief scientist! Why would he say this if there were a massive conspiracy to enable GAK? He's also the one who explained the point above about the self signature. He has suggested two other easy workarounds: Modify the PGP 5.0 source to put a fake recipient block on it. How many companies release their source so that you could do this? Or superencrypt to the real end user, like you suggested in your scheme. Why is this OK as a privacy workaround for your idea but it doesn't count for PGP? Then people say, "Oh, but PGP shouldn't have written the SMTP filter anyway (or at least they shouldn't have put that one policy in) because it would make it easier for the government to make everybody use it." Ignoring all the considerations above about what a stupid idea this is, the fact is that a simple filter like this is incredibly easy to write. I'm sure a skilled Perl hacker like Adam Back could put together something to check that a PGP message is encrypted to a desired key in a few hours. There are already Perl scripts out there to help parse PGP messages. You just have to look at the recipients and compare with the key you want to see. The existence of such a filter is totally insignificant in the big picture. If we are ever forced into a GAK system and filtering turns out to be a part of the picture, it will be trivial for such filters to be created. PGP's SMTP product will not make any difference one way or the other. The fact is, nobody has come up with a scenario where PGP's CMR feature can be turned into GAK in any practical way. They have to assume that all kinds of changes and additions are made - inability to remove CMR keys, forcing everyone to run SMTP filters, making it illegal to receive email at home, preventing people from implementing clients with workarounds, changing the technology to make it harder to implement workarounds using binding cryptography. Any system can be turned into GAK if you're allowed to postulate these kinds of changes. And the fact is that every GAK system so far designed can be trivially defeated. The big GAK danger has always been that the encryption manufacturers would release GAK-only versions of their software, so that you have a choice between an easy to use system with GAK support, or a difficult and balky product like PGP 2.6.2, distributed via underground means and with GAK workarounds. Now at last you can be sure that even if the very worst happens, you will at least have the convenience and ease of use of PGP 5.0 as the GAK disabled product, via a non-GAK international version. This doesn't have anything to do with PGP's policies or motives; it is strictly because of PGP 5.0's source distribution, which will make it easy for cypherpunks to modify it to look compliant with GAK while using superencryption or some other technology to avoid it. No longer will it be a choice between convenient GAK or clumsy non-GAK, opening the latter option only to cypherpunks and hackers. Now people opposed to GAK will be guaranteed an option of making their software at least as easy to use as PGP 5.0. If source code becomes available for PGP 5.5, that will raise the guaranteed ease of use of non-GAK software even further (by all accounts, 5.5 has an even better interface than 5.0). The existence of these products in source code form will forever stand as a barrier to any hope to coax (most) people into using GAK software by forcing it into built-in products, leaving the alternative of non-GAK software only to a tiny minority. This in itself should monkey wrench any government plans for requiring GAK.

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Re: PGP, Inc.--What were they thinking?
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I should point out before starting that I now work for Verisign. This following personal opinion however and may not reflect any corporate policy that may or may not exist. I can understand the pressures on PGP to support key escrow. When I designed the Shen trust system for the Web I allowed for an escrow facility for much the same reasons that have been cited. If it was not for the unrelenting pressure from the US government to support GAK I am sure that commercial escrow would be a checkbox item. The problem is that as long as the pressure is there any step towards commercial escrow is also a step towards GAK. The problem with PGP's move is that it is the first significant break by the Internet software provider community. This will make it much easier for Netscape or Microsoft to cave in. It will also build the pressure on them. I wonder what would happen to Bills problem with the DoJ if he had a sudden change of heart. Somehow I don't see Netscape and Microsoft holding the line on GAK if PGP are happily exporting their product and grabbing market share. I really did not expect Phil Zimmerman to be the first to blink. I also don't understand it from the corporate perspective. PGP may be picking up some business in the corporate market but at the cost of alienating a significant part of the hacker community which has been his best supporter up till now. I would think his best strategy would have been to build on this customer base rather than sell it out at the first opportunity. If Phil Z. wants to get into the Enterprise market he is going to have to start speaking their language. Most companies today are looking for open standards. PGP may have been the de facto security solution three years ago but the reality today is several million copies of Comminicator and Explorer with S/MIME built in. If you are prepared to load certs manually for each person you communicate with you can even use the Web of trust model with S/MIME. Its easier if you can rely on a CA. I probably don't have to remind many people on this list that few people make security a priority although they are prepared to do so if it has little impact on them personally. I really don't want to get into a standards flamewar, the point I'm making is that this is a bigger issue in the Enterprise market than key escrow at this point. Phil claims to have an RSA license, if he wants to go after the enterprise market he can support S/MIME. Phill

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