- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: (eternity) Covert Superhighway - the missing component? (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:41:53 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: (eternity) Covert Superhighway - the missing component? > - post to random newsgroups, use textual mimic functions, send > decryption keys after the stegoed data has been distributed to > disguise data until it is too late to affect distribution Isn't this going to increase latency and increase the likelihood of both sureptitious attacks (I notice the request in newsgroup A and begin putting my mitm requests in the other newsgroups - the odds being that I will get the data and then forward to the original recipient with small changes) as well as must plain missing the request? > - become a spammer, or employ some spammers. Spammers use the hit and > run approach with disposable accounts; with sufficient availability > of accounts, and the economic incentive they seem to flourish in > spite of intense displeasure of recipients. Be shure to pay with cash and use an anonymous name and address. Considering the cost of accounts this could be quite expensive. Many services do provide the first 2 weeks free or similar features. I predict that should this model be put into practice at a very broad level the ISP's won't give the free trial-periods to anonymous accounts. > - video signals: live porn shows, one on one "chat live to our model, > she will do anything you ask, blah, blah" -- high volume, easy > target for stego, plausible reasons for anonymity Is this going to be a live model or a VR relicant? If it is a live model then it should be relatively trivial to determine that persons identification and location. Another question that comes up is how many strippers are going to participate in this if they know the consequences? It's one thing to spend the night or a few weeks in the tank, a whole nother thing to spend years in there. > - subliminal channels in the TCP/IP and IPSEC protocols. Someone > posted a reference for an implementation of some subliminal channels > in the linux TCP/IP stack. These still have to show up in the actual packets and are open to sniffer attacks. Also, the individual packets can be traced from router to router. Lot's of blind alleys but you'll get there eventualy. > When people can buy a T1 to their house for £2,000/yr instead of > £20,000, we will stand a better chance. SWBT will currently sell T1 access to homes for as little as $214/mo. Would you settle for $2,568/yr.? Note that this price doesn't include routing and name resolution. I'm still (3 months later) trying to get SWBT to tell me how much they will charge for this - they supposedly offer it but I have yet to find an actual business office that support home delivery of service. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make | | violent revolution inevitable. | | | | John F. Kennedy | | | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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by 777e42＠ia.com.hk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: cypherpunks and guns
by Crisavec 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

All I'm saying is that not EVERYONE who collects a government paycheck has "diminished mental capacity" I know several people with genius level IQ's that simply don't care where they work....And that's something to remember... >> > >> >The fact that they collect a paycheck from the government is prima facie >> >evidence of diminished mental capacity. >> >> Don't bet on.... >> >> >> There is only one war, and it's not between the whites and the >> blacks, Labour and the Conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, or >> the Federation and the Romulans, it's between those of us who aren't >> complete idiots and those of us who are. >> >> >Who's side are you on? > > --Dave ************************************************************************ * There is a theory which states that if anyone ever discovers * * exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will * * instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more * * bizarre and inexplicable. * * * * There is another theory which states that this has already happened. * * * * "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy." * ************************************************************************

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Public choice theory and the politics of antitrust
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I wrote a little about public choice theory and the politics of antitrust in my article last week: http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1678,00.html Attached are excerpts from recent posts to a law and economics mailing list I'm on. I'm unsure of the reposting policy, so I'm deleting authors' names. Should be good reading anyway. -Declan === Assume for the moment that Microsoft is doing something wrong that the government should stop (a reach, I admit). If that is the case, how did the Justice Department come up with the figure of $1 million per day? Is that figure supposed to be compensatory, punitive, deterrent, or what? What goal is a daily fine supposed to accomplish that some more specifically-tailored remedy (injuntive relief, for instance) could not? Are there public choice explanations for what is driving this, and if so, what are they? === The Government's argument, I believe, is that Microsoft violated the consent order. A fine under these circumstances should punish the party that violated the order, deter it from violating the order again, and deter others from violating other orders. As for a public choice explanation, based upon the history of the present Administration, I suspect that one could be found in the records of the Federal Election Commission, i.e., I suspect that executives and shareholders of Microsoft's enemies have made far larger political contributions than Bill Gates and his colleagues. === Intel has in fact come under attack. The FTC has been investigating Intel for several months. The charge is similar to the rap on Microsoft - trying to dominate the inside of the computer by controlling the interface between the processor and "helper chips." The wonder is that Intel hasn't taken over the motherboard market - something that may also be more efficient, just as seemless integration of the operating system and browser and other applications is more efficient. Recall also that the FTC did in fact investigate Intel in the early nineties, though it filed no charges in the end. (I suspect that the FTC's institutional credibility is at stake. Since this is the second Intel probe, they're going to have come back with at least a symbolic consent decree.) Still, I would grant that the attack on Microsoft is more strident. Domestic political economy may play a role. Microsoft has vocal domestic competitors (Oracle, Netscape and Novell, for example). It's no coincidence that Republican Senator Hatch represents Novell's home state. Intel, in contrast, is viewed as the company that's keeping the foreigners at bay. Well yes, conduct and arrogance matter too. And sitting on a big pile of cash helps. That explains why a number of state AG's jumped on the anti-Microsoft bandwagon after the tobacco settlement. Finally, yes, Windows is a terrible operating system and almost everyone has an interest in seeing something better. (A confirmed Mac user, I compare Windows to the aliens in "Men in Black:" arthropod DOS stuffed into the skin of humanoid Mac.) Intel does have an incentive and the means to come up with a better operating system: Windows hurts the demand for its chips. Not surprisingly, Intel's Portland facility has 800 programmers charged with coming up with something as cool as the operating system developed by Next. Stay tuned. === [I interpret "substantial appropriable quasi-rents to be taxed away" as "campaign cash or political contributions to be expropriated as necessary by the government." --Declan] There are two reasons to go after a successful company. One possibility is that it has substantial appropriable quasi-rents to be taxed away. Even if a company's equity is high, it is not readily taxable if the assets can readily be withdrawn (e.g., Becker and Stigler's argument that Jews stayed out of agriculture because they could too easily be expropriated). The other reason for going after a successful company is to assist its competition. This may explain the attack on Microsoft ... and probably the attack on Milken as well, if you are persuaded, as I am, by Daniel Fischel's book on the case. === There has been a lot of talk about how hard Clinton has been on Microsoft. I wonder. Is it possible that Clinton has been soft on Microsoft? Hi-Tech generally has been very pro-Clinton, and contributed a lot of money to him. The fact that Justice is going after Microsoft now is not determinative. It seems to me that Microsoft was surprisingly arrogant in thinking it could get away with this blatant violation of the consent decree. THink of the Priest-Klein selection problem as applied here. PK implies that even if the judge is heavily pro-plaintiff, plaintiffs will win only 50 percent of the time in his court. The reason is that plaintiffs will bring even totally outrageous suits, knowing the judge might still rule in their favor. I suspect the same has happened with Microsoft. Confident that Clinton would block any response from Justice, they violated the consent decree. They still hope Justice will back down. So far, they are wrong (tho--has the fine been imposed yet, or has the judge delayed imposition?). The most humorous part is that Rush Limbaugh, a conservative Apple user, has been cheering for Microsoft, a notably liberal company. === > Can anybody give an efficiency explanation for this? Prima > facie, it is monopolizing conduct. Microsoft's absurd excuses are > that (a) Explorer is an integral part of Windows 95, and (b) > Allowing Netscape to come up automatically would spoil the integrity > of Windows 95. Microsoft's behavior is indeed puzzling. You would think that even though Windows has such a large market share, Microsoft would wish to enhance Window's appeal even further by making it as easy as possible for those who prefer Netscape to access Netscape easily. But, regardless of the wisdom of Microsoft's tactics, given what Eric reports about the DOJ's complaint against Microsoft, why the mighty brouhaha? Do computer users really need federal forces to help them put Netscape's icon on their Windows screen? === The DOJ wants Microsoft to be found in contempt for violating the '95 consent decree (Section IV (E)(i) of the Final Judgement) which prevents Microsoft from requiring OEM manufacturers to license other Microsoft products as a condition of recieving a license to install Windows '95 on the computers they produce -- is this not what "bundling" means? The icon business arises because three firms asked Microsoft to ammned the license agreement to allow them to remove the IE icon from the desktop and Microsoft refused to grant their requests. This is mentioned in the DOJ request for an order of contempt, but if Internet Explorer really is considered a separate product (and the DOJ claims it is) then Microsoft really isn't allowed to require firms to license it if they license Windows 95. Microsoft insists that requiring the licensing of Internet Explorer, sans icon, is still requiring the licensing of Internet Explorer, something they aren't allowed to do under the consent decree if IE is a separate product, but that it isn't a separate product so everything is just ducky. They also add that if Internet Explorer, sans icon, isn't licensed Windows won't work. They think it's silly to claim that the consent decree requires them to sell Internet Explorer, sans icon, as a part of Windows but prevents them from selling Internet Explorer, with icon, as a part of Windows. As to the why of it all... Microsoft believes, and the government agrees, that the browser itself is the seed of a new sort of operating system which will become a viable alternative to Windows 95. Microsoft says it wants reshape Windows into this new sort of operating system, the DOJ seems to want someone else to come up with it. From the DOJ's request to show cause why Microsoft should not be found in civil contempt: "Microsoft's aggressive and multi-faceted marketing of the Internet Explorer browser reflects its intense competition with other, competing Internet browsers, primarily the "Navigator" browser produced by Netscape Communications Corporation ("Netscape"). Microsoft believes that the success of competing browsers poses a serious, incipient threat to its operating system monopoly. Indeed, as Microsoft fears, browsers have the potential to become both alternative "platforms" on which various software applications and programs can run and alternative "interfaces" that PC users can employ to obtain and work with such applications and programs. Significantly, competing browsers operate not only on Windows, but also on a variety of other operating systems. Microsoft fears that over time growing use and acceptance of competing browsers as alternative platforms and interfaces will reduce the significance of the particular underlying operating system on which they are running, thereby "commoditizing" the operating system." And it's really hard for me to read this in any way other than "Microsoft is starting to realize that a web based operating system would be a better product than Windows 95 and is trying to create such an operating system, but we don't want them to because they're a monopoly." === > And about Congressional consistency: Let's suppose that Congress in July > of 1890 did indeed intend the Sherman Act to help consumers. Surely any > institution so fickle as to go from being consumers' friend to being > consumers' foe in a mere three months (by October 1890 when it hiked tariff > rates) is not an institution to be trusted with the awesome power to decide > which business practices do and do not constitute anticompetitive behavior. I would add: Why would anyone expect a Congress (1) in which a single majority party leader appointed the chairmen of each legislative committee (2) that used its committees to appoint the vast majority of federal workers (3) operating in an environment in which the pressure group had not yet emerged, to serve consumers? There is not only an antitrust myth, there is a myth among economists that the legislators of the period had any reason to make decisions based on the logic of economics. We might call this the legislature myth. The antritrust myth and the legislature myth seem to be stories we tell our little children in order to avoid scaring them. Unfortunately, many professional economists treat their students like little kids. === > So, you and I also agree that Congress often does stupid things. But what > is the alternative - do you know of a better system? Yep. A common-law system with no antitrust statutes. ===

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Crypto Kong penetration.
by James A. Donald 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-- 2 Since release there have been a very large number of hits on the Kong documents, and mere 102 downloads of the program, and 74 downloads of the source code. The large number of source code downloads indicates that I am only reaching the crypto techie audience, that for the most part is already able to use PGP, not the non tech audience that Crypto Kong was designed for. On my web page I have documentation as to how business users can and should use this product. (See the section "contracts and certificates" <http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong> I and Mather Cromer have prepared a release document targeted at business users (See below) Does anyone have any suggestion of how to get the message in front of the target audience? (press release oriented towards businessmen follows: -- Announcing Crypto Kong. Free digital signatures and encryption. <http://www.jim.com/jamesd/Kong/Kong.htm>. Many businessmen use a faxed signature for a contract, or for authority to act, or worse still, a shared password, as stockbrokers often do. This is almost worthless. The signature on a fax can be, and often is, a mere bitmap, not genuinely scanned in from a signature written in ink on a paper document, but merely applied digitally to an image in computer memory. If that bitmap was also applied to some other document sent to the same company, which it usually was, then the fax proves nothing. On the other hand, often one cannot wait for FedEx to deliver signed documents. The answer is digital signatures and encryption. With digitally-signed electronic documents, you can send unforgeable signed documents instantaneously across the globe. Crypto Kong is easy to use and it uses the same identity model that as businesses today use for ordinary handwritten signatures, unlike other products which impose their own different way of handling identity. Crypto Kong takes away the hassles of certificate management, public key authentication, and complicated operating instructions. Anyone can immediately use it to sign documents, to compare signatures or to encrypt sensitive messages. Kong compares the signatures on documents, rather than comparing a signature against certificates. Crypto Kong software makes it easy to send or receive digitally signed documents or use top grade encryption to keep messages private. Crypto Kong provides support for contracts and the documentation that accompanies transactions. The Crypto Kong application and detailed documentation information is available as a free download from the Kong home page: Kong is compatible only with Windows 95 and Windows NT. Complete source code is also available for download from the home page. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG SgQ8pgY/MeQpI9CfGR5kSsRdW61mSVYtqHkEMoMU 47jSLQPPmYxhaKH9MyohUU9Q9i3bzVWjwey/s3Od4 --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG gME+6HSq3N3G1iw88pJyVqcNc8dlMZhS2f+zUijA 4IpLFuTI1zY7tEU4+gDAFM6uhgcWP9IyA/3guXt7j 4WRob8mo+81LCLSyU4RiPNOilXHZTlyvZzsFMr+9d --------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the state. http://www.jim.com/jamesd/

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Re: Covert Superhighway - the missing component? (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:36:13 -0800 > Original-From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart(a)pobox.com> > Subject: Re: Covert Superhighway - the missing component? > - CU-SeeMe reflectors are fun, and you can stego a lot of traffic > inside your pictures. The problem here is the processor overhead requied to take advantage of a high frame rate. The startup costs are gonna be a bear. > Adam Back's idea of piggybacking on gaming nets could be > among the more interesting approaches, at least for games > that don't have a central control system. The problem here is that most gamers are responce-sensitive. They'll begin to wonder at some point where all that extra bandwidth is going. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make | | violent revolution inevitable. | | | | John F. Kennedy | | | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

2 1

Legality of faxed signatures.
by James A. Donald 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-- I believe that there is case law or legislation that a faxed signature is worthless if it is bit for bit identical with another signature, which of course it usually is these days. Can anyone with a spot of legal knowledge give me something impressive sounding to scare people who rely on those signatures. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG m3FpGHzBYajbGdNyApmYfwBYZOzY44LHPv7+KZPs 4hFtbEu745IQyZxamC5p6PUwCCpOVAo/LKzZD8Uqu --------------------------------------------------------------------- We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this right, not from the arbitrary power of the state. http://www.jim.com/jamesd/

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No Subject
by James Little 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi. I just recently subscribed to your mailing list. I've read ALL of your stuff. I just don't understand what it is u guys are really about. Please help.

3 2

CFP: DECEPTION, FRAUD and TRUST in AGENT SOCIETIES Workshop at AA'98
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text To: e$(a)vmeng.com Subject: CFP: DECEPTION, FRAUD and TRUST in AGENT SOCIETIES Workshop at AA'98 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:30:24 -0500 From: Mary Ellen Zurko <zurko(a)opengroup.org> Sender: <e$(a)vmeng.com> Precedence: Bulk DECEPTION, FRAUD and TRUST in AGENT SOCIETIES Workshop at the Second International Conference on Autonomous Agents (AA'98) <http://www.cis.udel.edu/~agents98> FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS Description of the workshop: The aim of the workshop is to bring together researchers that can contribute to a better understanding of trust and deception in agent societies. Most agent models assume secure and reliable communication to exist between agents. However, this ideal situation is seldom met in real life. Therefore, many techniques (e.g. contracts, signatures, long-term personnel relationships) have been evolved over time to detect and prevent deception and fraud in human communication, exchanges and relations, and hence to assure trust between agents. In recent research on electronic commerce trust has been recognized as one of the key factors for successful electronic commerce adoption. In electronic commerce problems of trust are magnified, because agents reach out far beyond their familiar trade environments. Also it is far from obvious whether existing paper-based techniques for fraud detection and prevention are adequate to establish trust in an electronic network environment where you usually never meet your trade partner physically, and where messages can be read or copied a million times without leaving any trace. Trust building is more than secure communication via electronic networks, as can be obtained with, for example, public key cryptography techniques. For example, the reliability of information about the status of your trade partner has very little to do with secure communication. With the growing impact of electronic commerce distance trust building becomes more and more important, and better models of trust and deception are needed. One trend is that in electronic communication channels extra agents, the so-called Trusted Third Parties, are introduced in an agent community that take care of trustbuilding among the other agents in the network. For example, in some cases the successful application of public key cryptography critically depends on trusted third parties that issue the keys. Although we do not focus in this workshop on techniques for secure communication (e.g. public key cryptography), we would welcome analyses about the advantages and limitations of these techniques for trustbuilding. The notion of trust is definitely important in other domains of agents' theory, beyond that of electronic commerce. It seems even foundational for the notion of "agency" and for its defining relation of acting "on behalf of". So, trust is relevant also in HC interaction; consider the relation between the user and her/his personal assistant (and, in general, her/his computer). But it is also critical for modeling groups and teams, organisations, coordination, negotiation, with the related trade-off between local/individual utility and global/collective interest; or in modelling distributed knowledge and its circulation. In sum, the notion of trust is crucial for all the major topics of Multi-Agent systems. Thus what is needed is a general and principled theory of trust, of its cognitive and affective components, and of its social functions. Analogously the study of deception not only is very relevant for avoiding practical troubles, but it seems really foundational for the theory of communication. First, because it challenges Grice's principles of linguistic communication; second, because the notion of "sign" itself has been defined in semiotics in relation to deception: "In principle, Semiotics is the discipline studying whatever can be used for lying" (U. Eco). Thus not only practical defences from deception (like reputations, guaranties, etc.), but also a general and principled theory of deception and of its forms (including fraud) are needed. We would encourage an interdisciplinary focus of the workshop as well as the presentation of a wide range of models of deception, fraud and trust(building). Just to mention some examples; AI models, BDI models, cognitive models, game theory, and also management science theories about trustbuilding. Suggested topics include, but are not restricted to: * models of deception and of its functions * models of trust and of its functions * models of fraud * role of trust and trusted third parties (TTP) in electronic commerce * defensive strategies and mechanisms * ways to detect and prevent deception and fraud WORKSHOP ORGANIZATION The full-day workshop will be aimed at creating an informal atmosphere for stimulating discussions, interdisciplinary exchange and deep understanding of each other's pespective. We plan to have both: Paper presentations: Long presentations (25-30 min) of the accepted papers, plus 10-15 minutes for discussion (possibly with discussants). Plenary discussion at the end. Panel sessions: A couple of topics will be selected for a focused discussion. Some of the attendees will be requested to participate as panelists. The panels chairs will circulate prior to the workshop a list of questions for the panelists. The accepted papers will be published in the workshop proceedings. The publication of a revised version of the accepted papers is being negotiated with a high quality publisher. SUBMISSION: CRITERIA, FORMATS, PROCEDURE The workshop welcomes submissions of original, high quality papers addressing issues that are clearly relevant to trust, deception and fraud in agent-based systems, either from a theoretical or an applied perspective. Papers will be peer reviewed by at least two referees from a group of reviewers selected by the workshop organizers. Submitted papers should be new work that has not been published elsewhere or is not about to be published elsewhere. Paper submissions: will include a full paper and a separate title page with the title, authors (full address), a 300-400 word abstract, and a list of keywords. The length of submitted papers must not exceed 12 pages including all figures, tables, and bibliography. All papers must be written in English. * The authors must send by email the title page of their paper by January 15th. * Submissions must be send electronically, as a postscript or MSword format file, by January 20th. * The authors must also airmail one hard copy of their paper to two of the organizers as soon as possible after the electronic submission. * No submissions by fax or arriving after the deadline will be accepted. SUBMISSION ADDRESS for the electronic submission Rino Falcone falcone(a)pscs2.irmkant.rm.cnr.it tel. +39 - 6 - 860 90 211 for the airmail hard copy Babak Sadighi Firozabadi Department of Computing - Imperial College 180 Queen's Gate - London SW7 2BZ - U.K. and (notice "and") Cristiano Castelfranchi National Research Council - Institute of Psychology Viale Marx, 15 - 00137 Roma - ITALY tel +39 6 860 90 518 IMPORTANT DATES Deadline for the electronic title page January 15, 1998 Deadline for Paper Submission January 20, 1998 Notification of Acceptance/Rejection March 1, 1998 Deadline for camera-ready version April 1, 1998 Workshop May 9, 1998 PROGRAM COMMITTEE Phil Cohen Dept. of Computer Science and Engineering, Oregon Inst. of Science and Tech., USA Robert Demolombe CERT/ONERA, France Andrew J I Jones Dept. of Philosophy - Univ. of Oslo, Norway Anand Rao Australian AI Institute, Melbourne, Australia Munindar Singh Dept. of Computer Science - North Carolina State University, USA Chris Snijders Dept. of Sociology, Utrecht, The Netherlands Gilad Zlotkin VP Engineering, Israel Gerd Wagner Inst.f.Informatik - Univ. Leipzig, Germany Cristiano Castelfranchi (co-chair) National Research Council - Institute of Psychology- Rome, Italy Yao-Hua Tan (co-chair) EURIDIS - Erasmus University - Rotterdam - The Netherlands Rino Falcone (co-organizer) National Research Council - Institute of Psychology- Rome, Italy Babak Sadighi Firozabadi (co-organizer) Department of Computing - Imperial College - London - UK ========== Rino Falcone IP - CNR National Research Council Division of "Artificial Intelligence, Cognitive Modeling and Interaction" Viale Marx, 15 00137 ROMA email: falcone(a)pscs2.irmkant.rm.cnr.it or falcone(a)vaxiac.iac.rm.cnr.it tel: ++39 6 86090.211 fax: ++39 6 86090.214 ========== -- See <http://www.cs.umbc.edu/agentslist> for list info & archives. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk/ info(a)hyperion.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Full-Strength Cryptographic Solutions for Worldwide Electronic Commerce http://www.c2.net/ stronghold(a)c2.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! For e$/e$pam sponsorship or donations, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

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RE: rant on the morality of confidentiality (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Note that any errors in transcription are mine, I had to re-edit this to get it to fit on a 80 column screen. Forwarded message: > From: Wayne Radinsky <waynerad(a)oz.net> > Subject: RE: rant on the morality of confidentiality > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:32:15 -0800 > The reason morality is impossible to nail down is because it does not exist > al all in any absolute sense, Morality is an individuals or societal groups beliefs of right and wrong. Of course there is no more absolute right morality than there is a right flavor of ice cream, this entire line of reasoning is a non sequitar. Ethics is the issues of what is correct or permissible in relation to a particular human activity such as scientific research or law. When you use 'science' and 'morality' in a comparison you are in actuality comparing apples and oranges. Science is related to *how* one does a particular activity, it is not concerned in the least with *why* that activity should (not) be done in the first place. Science and its philosophy are *not* applicable to all areas of human discourse anymore than the Bible is applicable as a methodology to study quantum physics or aerodynamics. > at least as far as science is concerned. Science isn't concerned with right, wrong, morality, etc. It *is* concerned with a systematic way to ask questions in a *specific* area of discourse. To apply science to religion is as much a disservice to science and religion as it would be to try to apply it to art. > According to the principle of natural selection, all people, including > scientists, exist purely to maximize their own inclusive genetic fitness. Exactly whose theory or principle of natural selection? At the current time I am aware of several different theories that fit the data but which in many aspects are mutualy exclusive. This is entirely too broad a statement to have reasonable merit. We simply don't know enough about what is going on with the processes of life to justify this sort of leap. > Keep in mind that all natural selection really does is decide which genes > are allowed to propagate, Natural selection isn't doing anything. It is a term we apply to a process we observe occurring. That process seems to occur at several levels besides just the genes. > and since genes are just digital information stored on DNA molecules I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than that. We start with the base pairs, which really are informationaly isolated from the codons which are triplets of base pairs which form a 'word' in the genetic code. It is of some import to realize that the genetic code itself is *not* dependant on the actual mechanism of expression, in other words you can talk about the genetic langauge without any reference to the base pairs themselves. It is the codons that are important. There is a fundamental symmetry break at that level. Each of the codons is mapped to one of 20 amino acids. Since there are 4 bases arranged in 3's there are 64 combinations. This means that for any particular amino acid there is more than one way to code it. There are also several 'stop' codes which break the transcription process as well. >, what we call "life" is really just a complex > interaction of matter/energy which determines which bits of information > continue to exist over time. That works equaly well as a definition of the cosmos. Keep this up and you'll become a pantheist...;) > The underlying reason people benefit by promoting themselves as moral > people, in general, is because of the benefit of what evolutionary > psychologists call reciprocal altruism. With reciprocal altruism, both > parties benefit if they are in a non-zero-sum situation. Because most > situations are non-zero-sum and the benefits are so great, everyone has > a stake in promoting themselves as a good reciprocal altruist, in other > words, a good, trustworthy, moral person. This is how natural selection > explains the existence of the concept of "morality". Oh boy... Not all moralities or religions accept the premise of altruistic behaviour. Further, if you look at the prisoners game, you actualy accrue more from intermittent moral behaviour than from consistent moral behaviour. Human morality has no place in any consistent theory of natural selection that I have ever seen. Please explain how a moral theory as you propose will increase the participants likelyhood for reproduction? Further, if you look at primate research (both non-human and human) what you find is a tendency for promiscuity in both sexes. Males tend to be 'in heat' at all times while females (at least when they are just entering the mating group) tend to follow a estrus or lunar based cycle. Recent studies of primates in Africa have found that the previous theory that band members don't intermingle is actualy incorrect. Upon extended monitoring they find that when the females go into heat each month they sneak off and mate with outlying members of other bands (who are usualy un-paired males). They intentionaly hide this activity from their band mates because if caught they will face a physical assault and potentialy death. This raises the question of whether chimps have morality under your view because it is clearly a measure of right and wrong. Are you willing to give chimps some sort of equal status to humans as a result? Studies of human females find this same sort of behaviour in the young just entering the mating pool. Studies find that young women tend to wear more provocative clothing and explore non-familiar peer groups in relation to their menstrual cycle. > So it is a myth that scientists live to find deep truths or to benefit > humanity. Absolutely, unfortunately the fallicy with such an assertion have nothing to do with the reasons you expound. > They may do those things, but their real goal is maximizing their own > inclusive fitness. So being a scientist increases ones probability for mating? Please be so kind as to offer some proof. Do scientist tend to have more offspring than non-scientist? I think you will find that the actual studies show that the more intelligent and well educated tend to have *fewer* children. This would seem to run contrary to your hypothesis. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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