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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Major Variola (ret) 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

At 11:28 AM 7/21/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > >As for the cable landings, likewise I've never heard anyone mention that >they saw any government equipment at the landings, so I suspect it's >relatively minimal. I'm sorry but I have to puke at your cluelessness. Do you actually think the folks in the Know would let *your kind* know of their taps? Frankly, you trolls are too easy; but you're probably not, which is even more painful. Take it as a compliment, if there really is a TD.

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Osama says "Vote for Bush!"
by Sunder 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/001393 Not that (m)any of us really expected Al-Qaeda to want Kerry. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :"I find it ironic that, on an amendment designed to protect /|\ \|/ :American democracy and our constitutional rights, the /\|/\ <--*-->:Republican leadership in the House had to rig the vote and \/|\/ /|\ :subvert the democratic process in order to prevail" \|/ + v + : -- Rep. Sanders re vote to ammend the US PATRIOT ACT. -------------------------------------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

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Re: [FoRK] For those indoctrinated by the military (fwd from andrew@ceruleansystems.com)
by Eugen Leitl 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

----- Forwarded message from "J. Andrew Rogers" <andrew(a)ceruleansystems.com> -----

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Tyler Durden 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

Eugen Leitl wrote... >It's clearly not viable to process much underwater. How much machine room >square meters do you need at those cable landings, though? Not that much, if all you need to do is send a spliced copy over to your own undersea Optical Fiber Amplification node or undersea DWDM OADM. As for the cable landings, likewise I've never heard anyone mention that they saw any government equipment at the landings, so I suspect it's relatively minimal. A the least, it's a splice over to the FDF (THAT they've seen). At the most, they have a card in the carrier's transport gear where they've dropped-and-continued some of the traffic. I guess the question arises as to whether the FBI, for instance, shares it's network with the NSA. -TD _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Tyler Durden 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

Yes, but I think it's fairly clear that if one needs to dissasemble the OC-Ns in the field, you simply need too much gear. It's going to be far easier to grab whole swathes of it and ship it back to Montana or wherever for it to be sifted through later. What they probably do, however, is grab specific DS1s/3s locall and switch those via CALEA back to optical access points, where all of this stuff is pulled together into OC-192s or (very soon) OC-768s. As Variola suggests, once you get it back then you can plow through it at your leisure. Got a disident you want to shut down? "Surely he's said SOMETHING over the last 2 years that you could incriminate him on....find it, dammit!" -TD >From: Morlock Elloi <morlockelloi(a)yahoo.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto >proxies >Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:19:20 -0700 (PDT) > > >Let's back up. You've got an OC-48 or OC-192 fiber and you want to grab >ALL > >of the data in this fiber. Now I'll grant that in real life there's > >A. You don't want all data. > >A nice illustration on ether speeds is obtained by using simple tools like >putting the NIC in promiscuous mode, using simple reassembler and filter >that >discards everything but smtp/pop text parts. This can be trivially done >with >tcpdump+awk. The percentage of mail texts is usually less than 2-3% of all >traffic. And it's not even because of porn - it's stupidity of html >generators >(humans & software). > >B. Even 'All data' is far less than line speed. Average fiber utilisation >is >under 4% in US. Buffers! > > > > >===== >end >(of original message) > >Y-a*h*o-o (yes, they scan for this) spam follows: > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Tyler Durden 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

Variola wrote... Dark fiber. "Dark Fiber" ain't a talisman you merely wave at data to get it to magically move to where you want it to.You've got to LIGHT that fiber, and to light that fiber you need LOTS and LOTS of power-hungry, space-occupying equipment. In other words, you'd need to duplicate a significant fraction of the current public transport network. And that can't be done in one location, you'd need this shadow network to have either it's own COs all over the country, or to have significant POPs in practically every CO in the country. And I can tell you unequivocally that neither are the case. What this points to is CALEA + Grooming + Massive Optical Transport for offline sifting in a few centralized locations. And I strongly suspect that the recent GIG-BE contract is precisely the massive optical part. What I get from what you've pointed out, however, is that processing power isn't the limitation any longer. If they COULD get it ALL, then they probably would. So perhaps that's just a matter of time (ULH systems can move lots of traffic very long distances these days, with only the occasional optical amplifier.) -TD >From: "Major Variola (ret)" <mv(a)cdc.gov> >To: "cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net" <cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net> >Subject: Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto >proxies >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:00:49 -0700 > >At 10:12 AM 7/19/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: > >"Gimme an intel IXA network processor and no problem. ATM is fixed > >size data, not as tricky as IP decoding. Predicatable bandwidth. > >Stream all into megadisks, analyze later." > > > >I'm gonna have to challenge this bit here, Variola. > >Please. Truth requires skepticism. Be bold. > > >Let's back up. You've got an OC-48 or OC-192 fiber and you want to grab >ALL > >of the data in this fiber. Now I'll grant that in real life there's >going to > >be a lot telephony circuit in there, but let's take a worst-case and >assume > >you need ALL the data. > >As cryptographers, we must assume this. > > >What's in this OC-192? Right now it definitely ain't 10Gb/s of packets. >It's > >going to have LOTS of DS1s, DS3s and, if you're lucky, and STS-3c or >two. So > >you'll need to first of all demux ALL of the tributaries. > >And how much *dark fiber* is there? Lots and lots, thanks to irrational > >exuberance. Guess what? SiO2 doesn't care which direction the beam >is pumped into. > > >Next, you've got to un-map any ATM in each of the DS1s, etc, and then >pull > >out the IP data from the ATM cells, remembering to reassemble >fragmented > >packets (and there will be plenty with ATM). And remember, you may have >to > >do this for 5000 simultaneous DS1s. > >Yawn. > >You underestimate the Adversary. Never ever do that. Isn't there some >chink who wrote that? > > >Oh, and let's not forget pointer > >adjustments. > >Oh no, not pointers! What next, MPLS? > > >And that's just one fiber. How will you actually get all of this >traffic > >back to HQ? Remember, it keeps coming and won't stop. > >Dark fiber. > > >No, I think I'm becomming convinced that they can't yet get ALL of it. > >Enjoy your childhood while it lasts. Its a beautiful time. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

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Re:
by Dave 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

>foto3 and MP3 [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of New_MP3_Player.com]

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[IP] Surveillance targeted to convention / Wide network of cameras planned (fwd from dave@farber.net)
by Eugen Leitl 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

----- Forwarded message from David Farber <dave(a)farber.net> -----

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Major Variola (ret) 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

At 10:12 AM 7/19/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: >"Gimme an intel IXA network processor and no problem. ATM is fixed >size data, not as tricky as IP decoding. Predicatable bandwidth. >Stream all into megadisks, analyze later." > >I'm gonna have to challenge this bit here, Variola. Please. Truth requires skepticism. Be bold. >Let's back up. You've got an OC-48 or OC-192 fiber and you want to grab ALL >of the data in this fiber. Now I'll grant that in real life there's going to >be a lot telephony circuit in there, but let's take a worst-case and assume >you need ALL the data. As cryptographers, we must assume this. >What's in this OC-192? Right now it definitely ain't 10Gb/s of packets. It's >going to have LOTS of DS1s, DS3s and, if you're lucky, and STS-3c or two. So >you'll need to first of all demux ALL of the tributaries. And how much *dark fiber* is there? Lots and lots, thanks to irrational exuberance. Guess what? SiO2 doesn't care which direction the beam is pumped into. >Next, you've got to un-map any ATM in each of the DS1s, etc, and then pull >out the IP data from the ATM cells, remembering to reassemble fragmented >packets (and there will be plenty with ATM). And remember, you may have to >do this for 5000 simultaneous DS1s. Yawn. You underestimate the Adversary. Never ever do that. Isn't there some chink who wrote that? >Oh, and let's not forget pointer >adjustments. Oh no, not pointers! What next, MPLS? >And that's just one fiber. How will you actually get all of this traffic >back to HQ? Remember, it keeps coming and won't stop. Dark fiber. >No, I think I'm becomming convinced that they can't yet get ALL of it. Enjoy your childhood while it lasts. Its a beautiful time.

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Major Variola (ret) 21 Jul '04

21 Jul '04

At 07:56 AM 7/19/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: >On Sun, 18 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >> You don't know about tape robots, or offline indexing, eh? > >None of which qualify here - remember, the discussion was based upon a >"quiet" implementation. The thread was about wiretapping. My point was that you can record at linespeed an analyze at leisure. Nothing more, nothing less.

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