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Digital Cash
by nobody＠rosebud.ee.uh.edu 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Responding to Mike Diehl's comments about digital cash: It is not really the right question to ask what digital cash "is". It is better to ask how it might work, what it could be. Digital cash is basically just a cryptographic technology that provides tokens, messages, bit patterns, etc. which are (A) unforgeable, (B) verifiable (by the institution that issues them, at least), and (C) untraceable. What you do with this technology is then limited only by your imagination. Eric Hughes has pointed out that you can use it for things having nothing to do with cash. Use it to represent fuel in a space game and this way people can transfer fuel but can't create more. Use it for anything for which you want the quantity to be conserved. If we want to use it as a substitute for cash, though, Mike asks what gives it value. There are many possible answers. One is, as Duncan suggested, to allow digital cash to be exchanged for regular cash. But this is not the only possibility. Eric pointed out that it could be used as a "play money" in a game, such as a Multi User Dungeon (MUD), allowing cash to be transfered between games. Another possibility would be for a company to issue "digital coupons" good for discounts off of its software products when you order them by email. This would give the coupons value and they could be used as the cash in a barter network, perhaps. Conceivable, a government might issue digital cash in parallel with its paper cash. It would then give it backing in the same way that the paper cash is backed; among other things, you can pay your taxes in digital cash. This is probably not too likely among the big countries but there are many countries in the world. In some areas of rural England, "scrip" is used by barter networks to help stimulate the local economies. A twenty-first century equivalent could use digital cash. Mike also asks what would prevent the digital cash "bank" from just absconding with the money, assuming that the digital cash was backed by regular cash. The answer is presumably the same things that stop a regular bank from doing this. If the cash is legal in the country of issue, laws will allow prosecution of bankers who steal. In the more anarchic world of international finance, people already face the problem of safeguarding their overseas investments. I know of a non-profit organization that lost several hundred thousand dollars in an overseas investment a few years ago (money it could hardly afford to lose) due to fraud. There are no certainties, but you can take some care. Invest only a small amount at first, then gradually increase your investment as you gain confidence. Choose a bank which has been in business for many years. Look at the reputations of the people behind the bank - have they had previous positions of responsibility and trust? These are all the kinds of things which you should do anyway, and they should work just as well for a digital cash bank as for any other case where you have to trust someone with your money. Mike asks what the benefits and purpose would be for digital cash. I see the main benefit as allowing electronic transactions with greater protection for consumer privacy. Presently when you make an electronic transaction (purchasing something from a catalog over the telephone, for example, or buying gas with your ATM card), you as the consumer have to trust a lot of people. The catalog company gets your credit card number, and you have to trust that none of the people who see it will use it illicitly, or sell the number to criminals. The credit card company itself gets a full record of the transaction, and you have to trust that they will treat this information as confidential, not sell your name to a mailing list of people who like to purchase certain kinds of items, and safeguard it so that computer criminals and snoopy investigators can't violate your privacy. Similarly, with the ATM transaction, you are trusting the bank, the point-of-sale vendor, and many other people to keep your Personal Identification Number (PIN) secret, and also to safeguard the records of your transaction. With digital cash and a smartcard, you should be able to engage in these kinds of transactions with no organization or institution able to violate your privacy or steal your money. You can protect yourself, rather than having to trust others. This puts more power into the hands of the consumer. Granted, in today's political climate, empowering individuals is perhaps not as persuasive an argument as we might wish. But I am optimistic that as people begin to learn that there is an alternative to trusting VISA (through such means as Chaum's article in Scientific American, for example) and as the inevitable horror stories continue to spread about ATM fraud, credit card fraud, and invaded privacy, political support for this proposal will grow. I do think that in an increasingly networked world people are going to be more jealous about guarding the privacy they have left. In this sense, digital cash may be the wave of the future. Hal Finney 74076.1041(a)compuserve.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.2 iQCVAgUBLB8c1qgTA69YIUw3AQHdJwP9EUJ+KqQzg4/1i46ojlSqKyZtyCL0CELB kvol3Ipupae5d1NKg87sZHwNZMo/7FQQxQ2B89qNUPaJlx4Au3HdTjsSj85JwvQ7 aC7pGttnG9fdE957FAoXvwR1szDs3D6NDYttBqp6IUsmfdNaId31NiR2QEgj1Rj/ nAYPWrgbGCE= =+9VM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: YAA (yet another article)
by nobody＠pmantis.berkeley.edu 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

Really from: dmandl(a)lehman.com > From: "Perry E. Metzger" <pmetzger(a)lehman.com> > > Torture, believe it or not, is a very effective way of police to get > information. Our society bans it. But keep in mind that it's still used often enough, just not usually against anyone with the power or credibility to speak out about it. Don't you remember the Queens police precinct that got involved in that stun-gun scandal a few years ago? --Dave (trying to give some extra business to the anonymous remailers).

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Re: WORD...
by tcmay＠netcom.com 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

Phiber Optik writes: >I was just curious... I saw the WordPerfect crack files on soda, and I'm With the hypodermic syringes being found in Pepsi cans, the "crack files on soda" phrase takes on new meaning. I wonder if the media knows? -Tim May

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WORD...
by Phiber Optik 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

I was just curious... I saw the WordPerfect crack files on soda, and I'm interesting in knowing if anyone knows where I can find a utility that can crack Microsoft WORD encryption. If you don't have an actual utility, but you know how they encrypt, that's fine too. Thanks.

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on the radio
by Steven Levy 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

>Steven Levy was interviewed on FM91.7 (san francisco public radio, I >forget the call letters) this morning. My patch cable isnt working for >some reason, or I would have caught it in a ulaw file. >I don't know the name of the show, or if they will rebroadcast it, but >if you're interested, you might try to track it down. I think the name of the show was TechAmerica, or something like that, a show syndicated on public radio. I did the interview about a month ago, me in Amherst, a fairly sharp interviewer in San Francisco. Steven

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Re: YAA (yet another article)
by Jason Zions 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

>ComputerWorld >June 14, 1993 >Volume 27, Number 24 >pages 73,74 > >However, a summary of some of those wiretaps, provided by the Federal >Bureau of Investigation, might cause even the most wary to warm up a >little closer to Clipper: > >* A wiretap led to the arrest and conviction of a "sexually deviant > serial murderer" who had operated in New Jersey and New Mexico. As an individual, who would he be talking to via Clipper? His victims? Not bloody likely. High-tech protection doesn't fall under the MO of this kind of killer. >* Another wiretap enabled authorities to thwart Chicago's "El Rukns > street gang" from a Libyan government-sponsored attempt to shoot > down a U.S. commercial airliner with a military weapons system. They find these all the time through other mechanisms. >* The entire leadership of the Mafia's Colombo family was convicted > with the help of wiretaps. Legalize drugs and prostitution and the Mafia will dry up and blow away. Besides, these guys have enough money to have purchased and used private scrambling gear anyway; the fact that they haven't (leading to their capture) leads one to believe they wouldn't use Clipper anyway. If the current leadership is smarter, they'll be smart enough to use non-Clipper gear anyway, eliminating the advantage Clipper gives to the Justice Dept. >Hellman has an ingenious idea that might appeal to those concerned >about civil liberties. He would require not one but three judges to >authorize a Clipper wiretap. A judge could answer the request with >"Yes," "No or "Oh, my God!" The latter means, "This looks like an >attempted abuse of power, as in Watergate." > >If a Clipper tap request got even one "Oh, my God!" decision, the >target of the wiretap would be notified. Because that is the last thing >the requestor would want, it would serve as a powerful check on >frivolous or improper requests. I gotta admit that I kinda like this. I should point out, though, that it ought to be applied regardless of the wiretapping technology applied; that is, this mechanism should be used today for all court-authorized wiretaps.

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unsubscribe
by David Heck 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

Please remove me from the mailing list, I'm going to be gone for awhile, completely unplugged...ahhhhh...I'll catch up when I get back. Thanks, David

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fast des
by nobody＠alumni.cco.caltech.edu 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

how fast is fast des these days? (i have measured over 2 mbps on decent workstations.) i was in a meeting today attended by someone from nsa who said that 2.4 gbps des chips exists today. (he got real silent after blurting this out. hmm.) 2.4 gbps is 37.5 million des per sec. it is probably not much challenge to put together a 65,536 element machine, which would run at 2.5 trillion des per sec. if i have my arithmetic right, this could exhaustively test the space of 56 bit keys in about eight hours.

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unsubscribe
by Craig Ellis 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

Please take me off the cypherpunks mailing list. Thank you.

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Re: Digital cash
by Richard Newsome 16 Jun '93

16 Jun '93

I have a friend who is working on developing a digital cash-like electronic payments system that would be connected to real financial institutions. He says that tthis system will essentially make the entire Internet a single ATM. I don't know any more about this as he is being very tight-lipped about this project.

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