- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
by Faustine 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

Declan wrote: On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 06:05:04PM -0400, Faustine wrote: > Great points. If you're looking to make a difference re: cypherpunk and >pro-libertarian issues and have a scientific and practical streak, why not >get an advanced degree in policy analysis instead? You get a rock-solid > grounding in a number of critical disciplines, and put yourself in a > position to seriously affect policy on the broadest possible stage. >Alas, the best policy analysts I've seen are lawyers. Folks in DC, at >least,look down at people who got an easier "policy analysis" degree as >people who couldn't or didn't want to go to law school. >-Declan True, if you don't pick your program carefully, it's entirely too possible to end up with a nebulous grab bag of an education that doesn't amount to much. It's all in the school, really. And I agree, there are some fantastic lawyer-analysts out there. But the ones I really admire are the mathematician-analysts, the hard-science analysts: they tend not to hog the limelight like some of their more voluble counterparts, but their influence is still enormous. It's kind of interesting to see how the field evolved and grew out of the strictly military/operations research stuff in the 50s into what it is now. It's still evolving, which is part of what makes it so exciting. I don't think what I'm doing is any easier than law school, quite the contrary! Maybe it's better to say it *can* be easier than law school--and often is-- but doesn't have to be if you're in the right place and have some purpose behind your choices. And I hope I didn't sound too down on studying law. I took a graduate class in constitutional law myself and spent a semester learning to write briefs, getting acquainted with West's Law Finder, etc. just because it's so important. I'd definitely recommend that much to anyone. ~Faustine.

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FBI must reveal computer snooping technique
by Harmon Seaver 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

The judge in the Scarfo. case just ordered the feebs to reveal how they got the evidence, full details. http://www.go2net.com/headlines/politics/20010807/347286.html -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 hseaver(a)cybershamanix.com Home 920-233-5820 hseaver(a)ameritech.net http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

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Re: Security Against Compelled Disclosure
by Bill Stewart 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

I realize this discussion was a couple of weeks ago, but I'm just catching up to it now :-) Ignoring the flamage and the inter-listmanager discussions, if possible, I'd like to address the problem of removing attachments. Removing big attachments is one thing, but there are a number of posters whose mail programs use MIME in ways that are likely to get removed, even if they're just using it for PGP signatures. While I'd prefer to encourage such people not to use formats like that, they *do* happen (especially on the remailer-operators list, where each different sub-version of Mutt seems to use a different format...) Tim May periodically flames the users of attachments, and while I agree that binary attachments are often non-portable and non-readable by many people, there are attachments that are just text with MIMEage headers around it, which are perfectly fine - if your reader can't do anything useful to display it, it *should* be able to show you the raw message body and let you read around the junk, just as you'd probably read around PGP signature headers. Bill At 08:29 AM 08/04/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Sat, 4 Aug 2001, Declan McCullagh wrote: > > > You fool. One of the cypherpunks nodes removed the attachment. > >Actually they should ONLY be removing attachments to their subscribers, if >they are removing attachments in general then they are breaking the >contract. > >More over, the size limitations for messages to the CDR's was agreed to be >1M minimum over a year ago. > >Check the archives. > > > Sending attachments to the distributed cypherpunks list when at least > > one node remove them is about as useful as, well, arguing with Choate.

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Re: Lawyers, Guns, and Money
by Jim Windle 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:39:06 Tim May wrote: >as I think lawyers generally create entropy and >inefficiency, no matter their intentions. "Lawyers are like nuclear weapons, the other side has theirs, so I have to have mine. But once you use them they fuck everything up." 'Larry the Liquidator" Garfield in "Other People's Money" That seems pretty accurate to me. Jim Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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Re: Jim Bell sentenced to 10 years in prison
by John Young 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

Eugene, I'd appreciate your not addressing mail to me concerning Jim Bell, though that may be due to the way your mailer is set up to respond to cpunk mail. I got subpoenaed to the grand jury and trial because Jim Bell's responses to my messages to cpunks were addressed to me and cc'ed to cpunks, just as yours was in this case. Robb London claimed that meant Jim and I were in direct communication when I was doing all I could to avoid private contact with Jim, then as now. He continues to be a witting or unwitting agent of the fuckers in ensnaring stand-off supporters in his comical stupidities which the fuckers take as high serious crimes. And I will ask again to all readers in the universe: do not send me private e-mail about Jim Bell, CJ, or anybody likely to be a target of the SOBs working cybercrime-rich territory. Post your stuff to a public forum, and do not cc me. Thank you very much.

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(Corrected URL) Re: Redirection server (fwd)
by Jim Choate 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat Aug 25 07:38:53 PDT 2001 From: davidthompson(a)hushmail.com To: coderpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Re: Redirection server -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Sorry, the URL should have been http://www.geocities.com/cryptosw DT -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Hush 2.0 wmIEARECACIFAjuHuH0bHGRhdmlkdGhvbXBzb25AaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEKWWfBJh okF2H/kAnif+c54eoLPa+EherYXD1o4wlbwHAJ9N6b4G4X6XZ97ulR5sYyaQKeNyDw== =LiQY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Free, secure Web-based email, now OpenPGP compliant - www.hushmail.com

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FOOTBALL yea!!!!!
by Grid Picks.com 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

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Re: Voluntary Mandatory Self-Ratings and Limits on Speech
by Declan McCullagh 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

On Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 02:10:18PM +0300, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > True. Yet harm gives you cause for Common Law action, no? No. If I start a bakery that competes with yours and takes customers from yours, I have "harmed" you. Yet this is something that society encourages. If I successfully woo your girlfriend/boyfriend, I have "harmed" you. Yet this is seen as acceptable, or at least not illegal, behavior. What is "harmful" is not necessarily illegal or tortuous. -Declan

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Money By PayPal ( Wall Street Journal And National News Programs have aired this, IT WORKS!!!
by Ron Johnson 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

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It is not Spam and it DOES WORK. --------------------------------------------------------------------- If you no longer want to get these e-mails, click the URL below to unsubscribe. http://setyournet.com/cgi-bin/mail/mailmachine.cgi?stevec@infowest.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <sdchristensen(a)charter.net> Received: from rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (rly-xd04.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.169]) by air-xd05.mail.aol.com (v80.17) with ESMTP id MAILINXD53-0823203149; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:31:49 -0400 Received: from dc-mx01.cluster1.charter.net (dc-mx01.cluster0.hsacorp.net [209.225.8.11]) by rly-xd04.mx.aol.com (v80.17) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXD42-0823203120; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:31:20 -0400 Received: from [24.241.177.77] (HELO dad) by dc-mx01.cluster1.charter.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with SMTP id 20907284; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:38:02 -0400 Message-ID: <00c801c12c34$7e85bd20$0300a8c0@dad> From: "Steve Christensen" <sdchristensen(a)charter.net> To: <jevangelista2002(a)globeclubs.com>, <jewels(a)moneygames.cr>, <jewelspage2000(a)yahoo.com>, <jface78(a)hotmail.com>, <jfcbettertravel(a)aol.com>, <jferna2377(a)aol.com>, <jflemin520(a)earthlink.net>, <jflemin520(a)eartlink.net>, <jfriese(a)e-com-network.de>, <jfrost77(a)hotmail.com>, <jfstms(a)yahoo.com>, <jg(a)home.com>, <jg(a)hotmail.com>, <jg(a)yahoo.com>, <jg50(a)ateam.every1.net>, <jgaml(a)hotmail.com>, <jgooch77(a)bellsouth.net>, <jgood(a)submitworld.com>, <jgrahamjr(a)wi.rr.com>, <jgrant(a)hotmail.com>, <jgrantn(a)hotmail.com>, <jgschnepp(a)netscape.net>, <jgwms(a)worldsubmitter.com>, <jh(a)jeurosport.com>, <jh(a)themail.com>, <jh32087742(a)163.com>, <jh6627(a)nmail.zyworld.com>, <jhansjr(a)hotmail.com>, <jharden3(a)submitworld.com>, <jharduby(a)bellsouth.net>, <jhayllar(a)lycos.co.uk>, <jhead(a)go2click.com>, <jhemiman01(a)aol.com>, <jhemiman01(a)zwallet.com>, <jhfm(a)wz.zj.cn>, <jhlcustom(a)hotmail.com>, <jhnsds(a)safedsdcon2000.dk>, <jhorsekrazius(a)yahoo.com>, <jhorsekrazy(a)info.trafficwave.net>, <jhovey(a)postmark.net>, <jhr1844(a)hotmail.com>, <jhuber2515(a)yahoo.com>, <jhujaejytnie(a)yahoo.com>, <jiajian(a)huang.com.cn>, <jiajun(a)china.com>, <jiangyabing(a)21cn.com>, <jianming(a)public.ndptt.fj.cn>, <jiasdfll(a)ginzoasdfscloset.com>, <jihad1421(a)hotmail.com>, <jill(a)submitworld.com>, <jillianpi(a)aol.com>, <jilltaylor4476(a)yahoo.com>, <jilly1742(a)aol.com>, <jim.worthington(a)mburrkeim.com>, <jim(a)carvngworkship.com>, <jim(a)ezaccess2.net>, <jim(a)turfhq.com>, <jim(a)ukwebmall.com>, <jim(a)win-today.com>, <jim121499(a)hotmail.com>, <jimallen(a)submitworld.com>, <jimamidon(a)yahoo.com>, <jimbell(a)chek.com>, <jimbo446(a)yahoo.com>, <jimboat4(a)aol.com>, <jimbob(a)noan.net>, <jimbob100(a)hotmail.com>, <jimc57(a)promoneymail.com>, <jimcolt777(a)themail.com>, <jimcooper46902(a)yahoo.com>, <jimdhart(a)submitworld.com>, <jimgrigg(a)tntie.com>, <jimhb(a)aol.com>, <jimhix(a)iwon.com>, <jimhutton(a)hotmail.com>, <jimhutton2(a)hotmail.com>, <jimhutton3(a)metacrawler.com>, <jimi2409(a)yahoo.com>, <jimj45us(a)yahoo.com>, <jimmy(a)top-designs.com>, <jimmy1(a)aol.com>, <jimmyh999(a)yahoo.com>, <jimmysherman(a)yahoo.com>, <jimmysherman2000(a)yahoo.com>, <jimnem(a)zwallet.com>, <jimpren(a)localnet.com>, <jimrae(a)redrubyads.com>, <jimrae(a)theglobe.com>, <jimrae(a)zwallet.com>, <jimsanew175(a)hotmail.com>, <jimsbiz(a)hootingmail.com>, <jimsut(a)zwallet.com>, <jimsym(a)mail.com>, <jimwilson(a)conk.com>, <jin(a)hotmail.com>, <jinshansh(a)263.net>, <jirahjason(a)yahoo.com>, <jirahjason2000(a)yahoo.com>, <jirvin(a)lovemail.com>, <jitaforall(a)iwon.com>, <jiva19(a)aol.com> Subject: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:33:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C12C02.2CEA64C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200

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Re: Voluntary Mandatory Self-Ratings and Limits on Speech
by georgemw＠speakeasy.net 25 Aug '01

25 Aug '01

On 21 Aug 2001, at 14:10, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Tim May wrote: > > >You're missing my general point. If you prefer that I not use "religion," > >I could just as easily use an example where certainly people of some > >community think that some otherwise-constitutional practice is "harmful." > > True. Yet harm gives you cause for Common Law action, no? > Harm does, but "harm" doesn't. It's pretty easy to claim that books and movies etc which "glorify" "bad" behavior lead to viewers being more likely to engage in the bad behavior glorified, or bad behavior in general, without even trying to claim that a particular "bad book" was responsible for a particular crime. I have two differnet reponses to this kind of accusation: 1) Bullshit, I'm not responsible for other people's actions. 2) If I agreed about it being "bad behavior" I wouldn't be "glorifying" it in the first place. > It's a question of where you draw the line between coerced and uncoerced. If > many enough of your peers think it's good behavior to label your > communications, and failure to do so leads to an amount of badwill, does > that constitute coercion? If not, we have a voluntary system where social > pressures encourage you to rate, but where the gain is not a direct economic > advantage, but rather the avoidance of the badwill of others. One might > argue that such "bad behavior" should be tolerated, and that rating is no > longer properly "voluntary" if rating only means you avoid an extra-legal > social sanction. Nevertheless, there is a definite incentive for a > non-anonymous person to rate correctly (to maintain his reputation), > sometimes an incentive to misrate regardless (like when you're advocating a > politically incorrect opinion), and the extra possibilities afforded by > anonymity in these situations (using a disposable tentacle to communicate > and/or misrate). This way, anonymity does make a difference even in an > uncoerced situation. The problem with this analysis is that it ignores the crucial point that the people calling for labelling ("voluntary" or otherwise) are not your customers, they're people trying to protect their own or their children's virgin eyes from content they find offensive or blasphemous or whatever. You have an economic incentive to please your customers, but you have no incentive to please people who aren't your customers. George > Sampo Syreeni, aka decoy, mailto:decoy@iki.fi, gsm: +358-50-5756111 > student/math+cs/helsinki university, http://www.iki.fi/~decoy/front

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