- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Choate vs mattd [was: RE: The fucking essay]
by Trei, Peter 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

This should be fun to watch. Let's hope the result is similar to the matchup of the Kilkenny cats. "There once were two cats of Kilkenny Each thought there was one cat too many So they fought and they fit, And they scratched and they bit, Till excepting their nails and the tips of their tails Instead of two cats there weren't any." Peter Trei

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Re: The fucking essay
by mattd 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

>>Clearly you've NEVER actually talked or read a psych book in the last 50 years. David Cooper,rd Laing,Konrad Lorenz,bf,Skinner,Erricson on identity.Dibs in search of self.whReich,steinem. Some of those I read ages ago but I read new scientist regularly and for the last 15 years.Freud is as discredited as comprehensively as marx.IMHO.Freud invented the sub conscious and marx,surplus value.Yeah right.give us a fuggin break Im not pretending to be expert on anything,Id like to be a sorta heinleinian guy.Allrounder,master of none,blah blah,etc,etc. Im also kinda interested in the psychology of people with flying saucers links at their websites,could you help us out?

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Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange (fwd)
by Eugene Leitl 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:37:52 -0500 From: David Shaw <dshaw(a)jabberwocky.com> To: linux-elitists(a)zgp.org Cc: Seth David Schoen <schoen(a)loyalty.org> Subject: Re: [linux-elitists] Phil Zimmermann on key exchange On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:42:26PM -0800, Seth David Schoen wrote: > > So Phil's robot CA idea actually sounds more practical to me than > > Brad's idea; in particular, it has better compatibility with regular > > PGP encryption -- and it seems that it may be more robust in some > > ways. The robot CA is intuitive and fairly secure if you don't expect > > active MITM attacks. > > The Board of Directors of EFF met today in San Francisco, and I made a > presentation about this, in the presence of Brad Templeton and others. > One of the conclusions was that EFF's role in implementing something > like this is still not defined clearly enough, and we don't know what > we could most usefully do. > > For example, some people like the idea of standardizing protocols > through the IETF; others prefer a completely independent development > of a spec (possibly with advance commitments or at least expressions > of interest from vendors), and then submission to standards bodies > after the technical work is more of a fait accompli. There is some > disagreement about who exactly should write which code, for what > platform, and what effect it would have for different people (e.g. > famous cryptographers, civil liberties organizations, well-known > scientists or network engineers) to endorse various approaches in > various places. > > We want to figure out more about what EFF can best do to make this > happen. Brad Templeton is planning to write to Phil Zimmermann, and I > plan to write to Phil Karn and some other people. After the Zimmermann article appeared, I emailed him and we spoke on the phone for a few hours about the possibilities here. He's an interesting guy. We discussed some concerns I had with the robot CA concept as without client support, or a special robot keyserver along with (or part of) the robot CA, there are some problems. All in all, I like his ideas for the robot CA (he had some ideas to extend this to a robot "designated revoker" as well as a few other useful things). > Brad was concerned that the robot CA is a single point of failure and > an easy target for attacks (DOS, subpoena, physical intrusions); it > _does_ hold some secret and trusted information (its own private > signing key) and also has a uniquely valuable key which can be > compromised -- an event which would tend to undermine the entire > scheme. He added that both schemes are equally secure against passive > wiretapping, and the scheme he outlined can survive even if the > organizations which originally supported it go away. One possible way to address some of Brad's concerns with Phil Zimmermann's scheme is to create a meta-key, stored offline, with some rigidly followed procedure for its use (this should be analogous to a non-robot CA master key handling). Use this key to sign a number of additional keys[1] for each robot CA. This gives you a few improvements - one, you have more than one robot CA, all equally valid, so there is no longer a single point of failure. A reasonable optimization here would be for each robot to look for a signature from a different robot and refuse to sign. In the case of robot compromise (legal or illegal), the robot's key can be revoked. This may hurt the people who had their keys signed by that particular robot, but does not affect the rest. This revision also allows the scheme to survive if some of the robots go away - as long as the keeper of the master key does not go away. For me, the piece of the "get everyone using encryption" project that Brad really hit on the head is the need for absolutely zero UI. To do this well in the client, we're really going to need some amount of vendor buy-in. Without zero (or pretty darn close to zero) UI, we can poke around with simplifying key management for years without accomplishing much because of the "If I have to do anything to use it, then I won't use it" mindset. I don't really like doing the encryption in the MTA as that puts the responsibility on a machine in the ISP. This machine is likely to be a far richer prize to an attacker than a home box, as well as being far more snoopable on via legal or illegal means. > I want to bifurcate the issue and ask everyone here: > > (1) What's the best design for an "informal key exchange" scheme in > which active MITM attacks may be permitted, but privacy against > passive wiretapping (as well as trivial impersonation attacks) is > maintained? How can this be implemented with the smaller amount of > user interface, while maintaining the largest amount of compatibility > in both directions with existing e-mail privacy systems for > sophisticated users? The easiest thing to do would be a email header that contains key information. Loads of people do this already ("X-My-PGP-Key: ..." and similar). If we could standardize a format, then smart clients could use it to automatically fetch the key. I'd suggest some sort of URL, for maximum flexibility. For bandwidth and messiness reasons, I don't really like the S/MIME feature of sending the key around all the time. Using a new email header for this has the nice feature of not breaking any of the current email infrastructure - any non-capable clients will just ignore it. > (2) What's the best way to get such a system designed and deployed to > the general public? How can an organization like EFF best help > accomplish this? Whose help do we need? Microsoft (like it or not, they make one of the most widely used MUAs on the planet). AOL/Netscape. And the developers of as many mailers we can get to listen. If this only happens in the open-source world, then we're not really solving the problem. Way back when, Netscape did a cute thing to push https: it made a big deal of the security icons on the browser, and made sure that you knew you did not have an encrypted connection when you submitted a form. I'd love to see mailers scold the user this way if they tried to send an unencrypted email. I favor using OpenPGP as the underlying protocol for all of this as there is wide understanding of OpenPGP and lots of code available under various licenses, including the GPL. Using OpenPGP also allows "power users" to use the full OpenPGP trust model if they choose to without affecting the people using the simplified model. I am very interested in working on these problems with anyone else who would like to join me. David [1] This could also be OpenPGP-style signing subkeys, but for a handful of reasons (the keyservers not handling keys like that very well for starters) it may better to use other keys. -- David Shaw | dshaw(a)jabberwocky.com | WWW http://www.jabberwocky.com/ +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson

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Re: The fucking essay
by mattd 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

>>Hate to break it to you but Freud <> Psychology. On choate prime maybe.Read G.steinem on fraud? I do reckon WH Reich <> mass pschology of fascism. >>Where jim > appeals to > the angels of our better nature is probably also flawed as a realistic > appeal to human psychology.(last page 10) >Jim appeals to nothing more than his own vanity. Lucky he's not here to defend himself eh jimmy? >What the fundamental flaw is to expect individuals to use AP to protect themselves while at the same time expecting those attacked through AP to do nothing other than lay down and take it. "we have a right to destroy those who would destroy us"...jim bell? yassar arafat?...actually its El presidente arbusto e neuman. I expect those attacked to possibly start a nuclear war,but Im a pessimist.Individuals may use anonymity/obscurity to protect themselves.AP is here jim,the only 'flaw' is the israelis,anti-choice nutters and US special forces are the only ones using it.(oh,and the soprano waste management co.of NJ) Lie back and think of choate prime. >>If fundamentaly mis-understands that two wrongs don't make a right (even if one is done in self-defence) and that when you attack a person their reaction is to act in self defence This is the misunderstanding I get all the time at indymedia.Police torturer and murderer so and so should not be the target of operation soft drill because,a) two wrongs etc. They need some tim may steel in their spine.b) He will just be replaced etc. Only after a few replacements I think we quickly reach critical mass,Who is to be master?People still have trouble conceiving of a lack of hierarchic power. c) Fear of absolute repression;You'll bring down heat on the movement,etc.Fuck that noise! Call yourselves anarchists! Your not fit to tie makhnos bootlaces,Yaada yada. Even from a moral or ethical view jimmy your wrong cos to rebel is an inalienable right and if you are willing to sacrifice your life you can attack whoever you want.No war on terror will ever stop that. If your a 'turn the other cheek' guy,I agree,up to a point simply for tactical reasons.Mass civil disobedience and all legal and semi-legal avenues should be explored before violence against persons is contemplated.Violence might be as American as cherry pie ,yet I support OSD as a way to minimize it.Not eliminate,minimize.Its paradoxical that an extremely potent threat to life and limb might do just that.Its worth it on a personal level because my bleeding heart concern for the oppressed is on record,the authorities dont wish to martyr me and I dont have to sign stupid petitions,grovelling pleas for mercy,whinging moans about abuse of power,etc. Its fun sometimes.How do you get justice on choate prime? >>It's just another example of the CACL failure with respect to the human factor. On one hand they speak of what sheep, and on the other they propose that these sheep will do the right thing 'if only....'. CALC has little to do with it.In the last year I've inaccurately been labeled a Nazi, a Communist, a Maoist, a Jew, an Anti-Semite, a KKK tool, a trotskyist,Racist, a Spic-Lover, a Capitalist Stooge,Sexist,Fed, Tool of the Ruling Class if not an Oppressor Myself, and a lawyer.(that hurt) This OSD thang trancends labels and pigeon holing.Its already taking hold,we can use it in a reputation enhancing way or rapidly become a sort of 'dot bomb'.We still have a choice. Planet earth,its diversity protected and future made sustainable or every ones own "insert name' prime.Your choice.

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IP: Federal agents raid warez groups (fwd)
by Eugene Leitl 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:58:47 -0500 From: David Farber <dave(a)farber.net> Reply-To: farber(a)cis.upenn.edu To: ip-sub-1(a)majordomo.pobox.com Subject: IP: Federal agents raid warez groups >From: "Bill Sodeman" <bill(a)sodeman.com> >To: <farber(a)cis.upenn.edu> > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/11/technology/11CND-PIRACY.html?pagewante >d=print > >December 11, 2001 >In 27 Cities, U.S. Carries Out Raids in Software Piracy Case >By DAVID STOUT > >WASHINGTON, Dec. 11 - Federal agents carried out dozens of raids today >against a far-flung network suspected of pirating billions of dollars >worth of computer software - ranging from operating systems to the >latest music videos and movies - over the Internet. > >Agents seized computers and hard drives in at least 27 cities in 21 >states in raids on businesses, university computer centers, Internet >service providers and many residences. Foreign law enforcement people >staged about 20 similar raids in Australia, Britain, Finland and Norway. > >Treasury and Commerce department officials said more raids will be >conducted in the weeks ahead. No arrests were made in the United States, >partly because today's operations were aimed at gathering evidence. Some >of the people implicated, aware that they could face charges of >conspiracy or theft of intellectual property, are already cooperating >with the authorities, department officials said. > >The operation that culminated in today's raids, after a 15-month >inquiry, is part of "the largest and most extensive investigation of its >kind," Customs Commissioner Robert C. Bonner said. > ><snip> > >Officials said offenders could face up to three years in prison, upon >conviction, and depending on their willingness to cooperate. By midday, >the authorities said, more than 60 people in the United States had been >identified as being involved in the pirating operation. Several suspects >have already been charged overseas. > >The target of the raids was the "Warez" group, a loosely affiliated >network of software-piracy gangs that duplicate and reproduce >copyrighted software over the Internet. Of special interest today was a >Warez unit known as "DrinkOrDie," probably the oldest and best known in >the Warez network, officials said, adding that DrinkOrDie members take >special pride in having cracked and pirated the Windows 95 operating >system three days before its release to the public. > >Members of Warez includes corporate executives, computer-network >administrators and students at major universities, government workers >and employees of technology and computer firms, the Customs Service said >today. The agency said the piracy ring is aided by insiders in stealing >the software and that the ring relies on elaborate computer-security >devices to minimize risk of detection. > >Raids were carried out today at the University of California at Los >Angeles, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Purdue University, >Duke University and the University of Oregon, officials said. They said >the universities themselves, like the various companies raided today, >were not involved in the wrongdoing by their employees and were >cooperating in the inquiry. > >Cities where raids were staged included New York, Washington, Houston, >Indianapolis, San Francisco, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Atlanta and >Chicago, the government said. > >========================== > >Bill Sodeman >bill(a)sodeman.com / http://bill.sodeman.com > >1-512-845-0119 For archives see: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/

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Re: AP Al Qaeda
by Nomen Nescio 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

Danny Popkin writes: > > Rather, the problem with AP is that it is mob rule at its worst. > > Worse than the secret ballot? Much worse. With a secret ballot you need to get a majority to support any particular position. That's a significant hurdle to overcome. But with AP any small group of people that can put up enough money to hire an assassin can get their way. The going rate for a murder is around $5-10K to off an average person, more if he's heavily guarded. If 100 people put up $100 each then that's enough to get someone killed. Imagine a secret ballot where any measure to increase government power would pass if it received as few as 100 votes. How much freedom would you have left in such a society? That's what AP represents. And keep in mind that the people buying the assassination are fully anonymous. There is no way to know who is funding the AP market. There is no check or limit on the extent to which anonymous individuals with private grievances can buy the deaths of anyone who gets in their way. The only good thing about this situation is that it would encourage everyone to go anonymous post haste. We would see a rapid change in society to allow anonymous business transactions, corporate ownership, stock transactions. Insider trading laws would become unenforceable. Board members would meet only electronically, spending their time barricaded inside their mansions. Even elective office would change. You'll walk into the ballot box to vote for your government officials from a list of nyms who meet only on the net. Police forces, heavily armed and always travelling in teams, will receive their orders via encrypted, digitally signed messages from elected officials. Any government official who must interact with the public, whether a building inspector, a drivers' license examiner, even a fireman, would get hazardous duty pay. Wearing masks might become routine for such officials. Taxes (much higher than before due to the greater expenses of operating the government) could be charged based on imputed property values depending on zip code and acreage. Everyone in a particular neighborhood would be charged a fixed amount per square foot. Any household which does not provide the required fee (via cryptographic anonymous transfer into the government account of course) would have its property subject to confiscation by police. Armed resistance would be met by military force including helicopter gunships. We can live in a world of crypto anarchy, but it won't be pretty. And the government certainly won't wither away. Anyone who thinks that attacking the government will weaken it should have learned a lesson from September 11th. When it feels itself under attack, the government strikes back. We are all the losers as our freedoms are destroyed.

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[Remops] And when he returns in February? (fwd)
by Eugene Leitl 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

More drama unfolds. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBMTO: N48 04'14.8'' E11 36'41.2'' http://www.leitl.org 57F9CFD3: ED90 0433 EB74 E4A9 537F CFF5 86E7 629B 57F9 CFD3 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:47:31 -0500 From: Secure Beer <almostt(a)beer.com> Reply-To: remops(a)lexx.shinn.net To: remailer-operators(a)anon.lcs.mit.edu Subject: [Remops] And when he returns in February? Last night I had my life threatened. The death threat was posted here and on the remops list. The message in question is <OQYAQQO737236.1811574074@anonymous> from the APA-S thread Re: A comparison of Frog-Admin, the Script-Kiddie, Anonymous Trolls and other plagues of the privacy community. The author of the death threat posted anonymously and used the nick Sade. But the writing style and especially the last few lines reveal that it was Frog-Admin who threatened my life. "Thank you, Champerty, for letting me experiencing the same kind of double ecstasy: first when I was crucifiing your ass and your friends', and now when you make me remember those delicious moments." That is part2 of a 2-part threat. He chooses to write part1 in his mother tongue, perhaps not knowing that I am bilingual. In French, he quotes from Marquis de Sade describing how Saint-Fond anally rapes Juliette and, while raping her, orders her head sliced off so that the clenching of her muscles at the moment of her decapitation might intensify his sexual pleasure. Champerty is a gender-neutral pseudonym. And although I am male I can't help wondering whether Frog-Admin thought he was threatening a woman when he decided to include that description of the sexual torture and murder of an 18 year old woman. Male or female. It's a death threat. Im my country it's criminal. It's one of the worse things he's done. And, as we are beginning to realize, he has done a lot of sleazy, under-handed things. Where did this rage come from, you might ask? In addition to an ego already on steroids, Frog-Admin was exposéd recently by an anonymous poster as being the individual responsible for much of the floods and trolling in APA-S over the past two years. Frog-Admin assumed that this anonymous poster must have been his arch rival from 1998-2000: Champerty. This is a knee-jerk reaction for him. You see, he can't get his head around the idea that there is more than one person who thinks he is wrong. Embarrassed and humiliated by the exposé he has announced that he will be closing down his remailer tomorrow (Wed Dec 12 2001) . He has also had a bit of a temper tantrum as the deluge of anti-Champerty anti-Boschloo and pro-Frog messages demonstrates. As he explains himself in a recent message "You didn't expect me to remain silent did you?" He has promised to be back from his vacation in February 2002 and intends to put his remailer back online. What do remailer users think about Frog-Admin now? Is this the type of remailer operator that you want in your remailer network? And operators? I ask you to please, for once, take a public stand for or against whether Frog-Admin will be welcomed back in February after the shit he has pulled over the years and especially in recent days. Death threats cannot be dismissed as merely "bad form". Flooding APA-S, discrediting and silencing critics, attacking ISPs, scapegoating innocents like TB and Orange Admin. These things should not be tolerated simply because they don't directly affect YOUR individual remailer. Farout Admin has declared himself supportive of Frog Admin and hopes he returns in February. What about the rest of the operators and stats maintainers? 'Time to take a stand. Secure Beer (formerly Champerty) almostt AT beer DOT com Beer Mail, brought to you by your friends at beer.com. _______________________________________________ Remops mailing list Remops(a)lexx.shinn.net http://lexx.shinn.net/mailman/listinfo/remops

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Re: Quantum encryption and lunatic jamesd hazard
by mattd 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

>>I am happy to observe that the intellectual level of the remaining socialists has been sliding downhill rapidly since the fall of the Soviet Union. I aim to please.Say ahhh. >>Hey mattd, better get moving or you will miss your ride on the comet. Judas priest! Someone here cares about me! Its just old tailgunner jamesd but thats good enough for me.

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RE: Professor Punished for Witty Remark
by Trei, Peter 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

> Eric Cordian[SMTP:emc@artifact.psychedelic.net] wrote: > > There's also a blacklist on the Web of people in academia who have > publicly stated less than glowing support for Bush's war against "evil." > Where is it? [...] > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > Peter Trei

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Quantum encryption hazard
by mattd 12 Dec '01

12 Dec '01

Quantum mechanics based on heisenbergs uncertainty principal is under attack.The two slit experiment has another explanation that even revives 'ether' According to electrical engineering professor,bill honig. The theory feynman was sure no one quite understood and einstein mistrusted may be about to be superceded with potential to crack crypto's,holy grail,Quantum encryption. Quantum mechanics is 75 years young and the cornerstone of the modern scientific world view.But it has its dissidents. Bill honig's an internationally recognized inventor,journal editor and long time academic at curtin university.A skeptical inquirer whose doubts about the orthodoxy are caused by logic. His rebellion took shape as a teen prodigy at a brooklyn high school,asking too many questions about quantum mechanics.He went into electrical engineering and rose high in military research.Then in mid-career,while working on nuclear weapons he had a change of heart.Looking in an atlas for a new home that might be safe and peaceful and passing over iceland he settled on perth.WA.au. Believing we can and must describe the fundamental particles of matter as they really are there and not blurs of probability is carrying on einsteins fight.In this old/new picture of the subatomic world,the basic particles are spinning,electromagnetically charged droplets;as they change speed they cast off expanding "photexes"that are compared with smoke rings,rippling outward.Space is an ether made up of two oppositely charged fluids. END extract.more at... http://www.physicsessays.com/ Honig has picked up and carried forward work by paul dirac.

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