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RE: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

> > As an audiophile (Krell+Levinson+Thiel gear at home), I definitely don't > > want to grab an analog signal. Doing that the signal is sure to retain > > characteristics of the extracting gear. But the vast majority of P2P kids > > won't care one iota that their file was analog for half a second. > > > > -TD > > > I'll ditto that - my brother is an extremist audiophile - he writes > reviews for the high-end stuff (google "Mike Trei"). Many (by > no means all) top end audophiles prefer all-analog equipment, > and direct-cut vinyl records (ie, the master disk was cut directly > at the performance, without a magtape master). I've listened to > some of this stuff, and it just blows digital away. What else do you expect, when any audiophile who denies that inaudible frequencies make the music "warmer" proves himself to be a philistine with ears of tin? Remember, it was the fashion and clothing EXPERTS who were the most insistent that the emperor's new clothes were absolutely marvelous.

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Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Nomen Nescio 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

Tyler Durden leaves the fight club and writes: > Do you have a reference? I don't remember reading that SACD was encrypted. > What I DO remember is that the reason there's no standard SACD or DVD-A > digital interface is because the Industry wants that digital interface to be > encrypted. The detailed technical specs are apparently secret, but an overview of the multi-layered SACD copy protection is at http://www.sacd.philips.com/b2b/downloads/content_protection.pdf. If you don't like PDFs, most of the same information is at http://www.disctronics.co.uk/technology/dvdaudio/dvdaud_sacd.htm. Alan Clueless writes: > Furthermore, people have come to expect that they should be able to play > whatever disc shaped media in their computer. At some point there will > need to be a software based player. Both of the documents above specifically deny that software based players will be allowed. I get the impression that the decryption will always be done in hardware, and if a PC is ever able to play one of these gadgets, it will be a Palladium system or something similar that can be locked down. Steve Shear writes: > If you believe the article "Myths and Misconceptions about Hardware > Hacking," > http://www.cptwg.org/Assets/Presentations/ARDG/ARDGHardware_hack05-28-03.pdf > , recently posted to the Content Protection Technical Working Group, access > to affordable commercial technology for reverse engineering has given > hardware hackers the upper hand. That's mostly about how hardware hackers can use modern chips and custom PC boards without spending more than a few hundred dollars. Fine, but it's a long way from that to being able to pull an algorithm and/or device key out of a chip which has been designed to make that difficult.

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Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Billy 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 03:52:54PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > Billy [SMTP:billy@dadadada.net] wrote: > > Bullshit detector buzzing. > > Is this *really* true? Have you tried it? > > Not personally, but The Net holds all knowledge. >... > http://www.bostonaes.org/archives/2003/Jan/ > http://www.acoustics.org/press/133rd/2pea.html Very interesting.. Thanks!

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RE: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Trei, Peter 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

> Billy[SMTP:billy@dadadada.net] > > > On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 01:26:46PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > > While the ear can't hear above 22KHz, signal above that *can* > > effect the perceived sound, by heterodyne effects. For example, > > if you play a single tone of 28KHz, or a single tone of 30 KHz, > > you can't hear them. Play them together, however, and you > > *can* hear a beat frequency of 2KHz. > > Bullshit detector buzzing. > Is this *really* true? Have you tried it? > > The beat frequency is an amplitude envelope around the 30kHz tone > (think AM). No part of its spectrum falls within audible range. > It shouldn't be audible at all. > Not personally, but The Net holds all knowledge. People are making real products using this technique. For example.... Here's a neat application - 'audio spotlights'. The directionality of a speaker is a function of the ratio of its diameter to the wavelength of the sound produced - by using an ultrasonic speaker with audible beat frequencies, you can make a small, very directional speaker: http://www.bostonaes.org/archives/2003/Jan/ http://www.acoustics.org/press/133rd/2pea.html Peter Trei

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RE: DNA of relative indicts man, cuckolding ignored
by Vincent Penquerc'h 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

> When AAA Insurance meets with Joe Sixpack to discuss his > health or life > or earthquake insurance, they seek to collect enough information to > have a reasonable chance of turning a profit on the deal. Else why > would they exist as a business? But there is a necessary asymmetry here. If you could determine with good precision whether someone will be affected by an illness, when, how much, etc, then this wouldn't work, save for superstition on the part of Joe Sixpack. Since the contract is based on a bet on the likelihood of premium/payouts balance, the more you can find out about the future of the insured person's organism future, the closer the premiums will match the payouts, reliably. *IF* you can determine this, of course. So the goal will be for the insurer to get access to as much info as possible to assess how to set the premiums, while preventing the insured from knowing as much, so there is still the uncertainty and the value of "peace of mind" gotten by the insured, and that's worth something too. The converse is also true. And both raise the problem of assessment of the data - how does the insurer get the data (getting DNA from the would be insured ? with the insured's knowledge or not ? From the contract clause that subordinates the insurance to the supplying of the data by the insured ? Will credit bureaus expand to cover this kind of thing ?) If there is total symmetry, insurance loses its point entirely. Could we see a gradual disappearance of some sorts of insurance for events that cease to be probabilistic ? Just musing. All of it already happens, but I'm curious about the limit of it (in the mathemetical sense) when the precision of the prediction tends towards infinity. -- Vincent Penquerc'h

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Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Billy 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 01:26:46PM -0400, Trei, Peter wrote: > While the ear can't hear above 22KHz, signal above that *can* > effect the perceived sound, by heterodyne effects. For example, > if you play a single tone of 28KHz, or a single tone of 30 KHz, > you can't hear them. Play them together, however, and you > *can* hear a beat frequency of 2KHz. Bullshit detector buzzing. Is this *really* true? Have you tried it? The beat frequency is an amplitude envelope around the 30kHz tone (think AM). No part of its spectrum falls within audible range. It shouldn't be audible at all.

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Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Tyler Durden 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

As a basic idea it seems relatively workable. However, there's one detail that perhaps you might want to know about: "We can push the idea a step further, making a stripped-down CD/DVD drive that would be able basically just to follow the spiral track with its head in constant linear velocity" Unlike a vinyl record, the CD grooves don't form a spiral...they are concentric circles. Also, the beginning of the CD is towards the center, the end towards the edge. -TD >From: Thomas Shaddack <shaddack(a)ns.arachne.cz> >To: cypherpunks <cypherpunks(a)lne.com> >Subject: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool >Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 04:13:32 +0200 (CEST) > >Pondering. Vast majority of the CD/DVD "protection" methods is based on >various deviations from the standards, or more accurately, how such >deviations are (or aren't) handled by the drive firmware. > >However, we can sidestep the firmware. > >The drive contains the moving part with the head assembly. There is an >important output signal there: the raw analog signal bounced from the >disk and amplified. > >We can tap it and connect it to a highspeed digital oscilloscope card. And >sample obscene amount of data from it. In comparison with fast-enough >ADCs, disk space is cheap. The problem can be in bandwidth, but for the >drive speed set up to possible minimum (or for "normal" players) the >contemporary machines should be sufficient. Real-time operating system >(maybe RTOS-Linux) may be necessary. > >We get the record of the signal captured from the drive's head - raw, with >everything - dirt, drop-outs, sector headers, ECC bits. The low-level >format is fairly well documented; now we have to postprocess the signal. >Conversion from analog to digital data and then from the CD representation >to 8-bit-per-byte should be fairly straightforward (at least for someone >skilled with digital signal processing). Now we can identify the >individual sectors on the disc and extract them to a disc image file that >we can handle later by normal means. > >We can push the idea a step further, making a stripped-down CD/DVD drive >that would be able basically just to follow the spiral track with its head >in constant linear velocity (easier to analyze than CAV) mode, with the >ability to control the speed in accordance with how fast (and expensive) >ADC, bus, and disks we have, and the possibility to interrupt/resume >scanning anytimes in accordance with how much disk space we have (or to >scan just a small area of the disc). > >As a welcomed side effect, not only we'd get a device for circumvention of >just about any contemporary (and possibly a good deal of the future ones) >optical media "protections", but we would also get a powerful tool for >retrieving data from even very grossly damaged discs, for audit of >behavior of CD/DVD writers and CD vendors (eg, if they don't attempt to >sneak in something like a hidden serial number of the writer), and for >access to all areas of the discs - including the eventual ones unreachable >through the drive's own firmware. > >If we'd fill this idea with water, would it leak? Where? Why? _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Tyler Durden 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

Nobody wrote... "There is a loss of quality if you go through an analog stage. Real and wannabe audiophiles will prefer the real thing, pure and undiluted by a reconversion phase. These are the people who are already swallowing the marketing line that the CD bandwidth limit of 22KHz is too low for good fidelity, despite being higher than they can hear." I'm in that category. And as someone who basically grew up in Carnegie Hall and the Metropolitan Opera, I trust my ears (I saw the opera Wozzeck twice by the time I was 17). There are engineering reasons for this that I'm willing to discuss, though the discussion will be tedious for engineers, and impossible to understand for non-engineers. Far easier will be for you to go and listen to a CD player that can upsample standard CD to 24bits/196kHz. The difference is not by any means subtle. As an audiophile (Krell+Levinson+Thiel gear at home), I definitely don't want to grab an analog signal. Doing that the signal is sure to retain characteristics of the extracting gear. But the vast majority of P2P kids won't care one iota that their file was analog for half a second. -TD >From: Nomen Nescio <nobody(a)dizum.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)lne.com >Subject: Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool >Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:40:01 +0200 (CEST) > >Major Variola writes: > > > Any human-consumable (analogue) input is readily recordable with > > a single, one-time ADC, and thereafter is toast. DRM is a fraud > > perpetrated by engineers on Hollywood suits. Good for employment > > though. > >There is a loss of quality if you go through an analog stage. Real and >wannabe audiophiles will prefer the real thing, pure and undiluted by >a reconversion phase. These are the people who are already swallowing >the marketing line that the CD bandwidth limit of 22KHz is too low for >good fidelity, despite being higher than they can hear. > >Consider how much more wine from Champagne is worth than that from a >village just outside of the appelation limits. People want to feel >that they are getting the authentic goods, and they'll pay for them. >That's what the RIAA is counting on. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

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RE: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Trei, Peter 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

> Tyler Durden[SMTP:camera_lumina@hotmail.com] wrote: > > Nobody wrote... > > "There is a loss of quality if you go through an analog stage. Real and > wannabe audiophiles will prefer the real thing, pure and undiluted by > a reconversion phase. These are the people who are already swallowing > the marketing line that the CD bandwidth limit of 22KHz is too low for > good fidelity, despite being higher than they can hear." > > I'm in that category. And as someone who basically grew up in Carnegie > Hall > and the Metropolitan Opera, I trust my ears (I saw the opera Wozzeck twice > > by the time I was 17). > > There are engineering reasons for this that I'm willing to discuss, though > > the discussion will be tedious for engineers, and impossible to understand > > for non-engineers. Far easier will be for you to go and listen > to a CD player that can upsample standard CD to 24bits/196kHz. The > difference is not by any means subtle. > > As an audiophile (Krell+Levinson+Thiel gear at home), I definitely don't > want to grab an analog signal. Doing that the signal is sure to retain > characteristics of the extracting gear. But the vast majority of P2P kids > won't care one iota that their file was analog for half a second. > > -TD > I'll ditto that - my brother is an extremist audiophile - he writes reviews for the high-end stuff (google "Mike Trei"). Many (by no means all) top end audophiles prefer all-analog equipment, and direct-cut vinyl records (ie, the master disk was cut directly at the performance, without a magtape master). I've listened to some of this stuff, and it just blows digital away. The general attitude is that while low-end digital beats low-end analog, high-end analog beats high-end digital. Digital places a distinct floor on how bad the quality can be, but it also puts a ceiling on it. The data capacity of a vinyl groove is a lot higher than a CD pit-track, but you need very good equipment to use it. While the ear can't hear above 22KHz, signal above that *can* effect the perceived sound, by heterodyne effects. For example, if you play a single tone of 28KHz, or a single tone of 30 KHz, you can't hear them. Play them together, however, and you *can* hear a beat frequency of 2KHz. Peter Trei

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Re: Idea: The ultimate CD/DVD auditing tool
by Major Variola (ret) 08 Jul '03

08 Jul '03

At 08:40 AM 7/8/03 +0200, Nomen Nescio wrote: >Major Variola writes: > >> Any human-consumable (analogue) input is readily recordable with >> a single, one-time ADC, and thereafter is toast. DRM is a fraud >> perpetrated by engineers on Hollywood suits. Good for employment >> though. > >There is a loss of quality if you go through an analog stage. There are some very nice DAC <--> ADC chains and some well shielded cables. The real problem with the old analogue world was *successive* copying. One conversion is fine almost always. Real and >wannabe audiophiles will prefer the real thing, pure and undiluted by >a reconversion phase. These are the people who are already swallowing >the marketing line that the CD bandwidth limit of 22KHz is too low for >good fidelity, despite being higher than they can hear. Take a look at the quality of the .MP3s that give Hillary the shits. Take a look at the psychoacoustic compromises in even the best MP3 standard. Consider that music is often listened to on small computer speakers with fan noise, or in cars with road noise and horrible acoustic chamber properties. Even those who listen with headphones seem to enjoy MP3s. >Consider how much more wine from Champagne is worth than that from a >village just outside of the appelation limits. People want to feel >that they are getting the authentic goods, and they'll pay for them. >That's what the RIAA is counting on. Then I would not buy stock in RIAA-type companies, nor would I extend credit to their employees. I guess we'll see.

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