July 2018 - cypherpunks-legacy

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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[Geowanking] On geo privacy policies
by Dan R. Greening 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Just a comment on advance policy work on geoprivacy, like Geopriv: I think developing privacy laws and policies in a vacuum is a recipe for disaster. Europe adopted some seemingly harmless geoprivacy laws back in 2002 (OK I howled about it then, including to the EU privacy czar, but no one cared). When last I checked, EU law precludes things like geography-based personalization, like the stuff Nathan Eagle does, because you cannot store location-tracking information with user-identification in the EU ... like EVER... even if you inform the consumer. A whole class of applications is now verboten there. Rather I think we should adopt the "agile" methods: being reasonable about privacy as companies, describing company privacy policies explicitly on web sites and so forth, testing applications and policies out in the market, and refining. Sue the companies if they fail to implement the policies they claim they have. There are many reasons for doing it this way, but one reason is that people and society adapt to technology; it isn't just technology having to adapt to "the way people will always think". For example, I am on the middle-aged side and I have watched society adapt to the "privacy invasion" that I think is almost inevitable with the Internet. While I myself am a "transparent society" type, thinking it is fine if everyone knows my personal life (as long the behavior of authorities is also transparent), I am still amazed at how open my younger peers are as a whole class of people. From Facebook to MySpace, there is plenty of evidence that people are revealing more personal aspects of themselves in a more public way than ever before, fearlessly. I think this openness provides for a more rational and human-diversity respecting society, and celebrate it. And yet, when I reveal information about myself in this same way, it just feels a little weird. Don't get me wrong; I think people should be able to choose to turn location-tracking on and off whenever they want. It's just that when you try to develop laws or broadly-applied policies in advance of technology, you often fail. I guess a great example is P3P "Platform for Privacy Preferences", which is the "encoded privacy policy" system standardized by W3C and embedded in IE. It is largely ignored today, and the consumer doesn't even know it is there. I mean the consumer can turn on-and- off access to different web sites based on the encoded policy, but who actually does this? I think about the vast effort put behind this P3P technology in the late 90s and think it was just a huge waste. Dan R. Greening, Ph.D., CEO BigTribe Corporation, http:// dan.greening.name/contact.htm On Jun 28, 2006, at 8:00 PM, Andrew Turner wrote: >>At the same time, the sociotechnical problems that have long been >>expected >>from these systemsbprivacy invasion, privacy confusion, LBSpam, >>data-quality >>control issuesbare not yet real on a large scale, however well- >>characterized >>they may be. This is partly because LBS developers have adopted >>successful >>design patterns from other "read/write web" contexts, but also >>because the >>user base is just not that large or diverse yet. > >THis seems like just the time to start developing standards that make >sense and look to the future. Lets not design another static HTML, >that then has to wait 10 years for Javascript to make it dynamic >(without flash). There isn't "lock-in" yet, so we can develop GeoPriv, >anti-map-spam, etc. _______________________________________________ Geowanking mailing list Geowanking(a)lists.burri.to http://lists.burri.to/mailman/listinfo/geowanking ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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[Geowanking] On geo privacy policies
by Dan R. Greening 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Just a comment on advance policy work on geoprivacy, like Geopriv: I think developing privacy laws and policies in a vacuum is a recipe for disaster. Europe adopted some seemingly harmless geoprivacy laws back in 2002 (OK I howled about it then, including to the EU privacy czar, but no one cared). When last I checked, EU law precludes things like geography-based personalization, like the stuff Nathan Eagle does, because you cannot store location-tracking information with user-identification in the EU ... like EVER... even if you inform the consumer. A whole class of applications is now verboten there. Rather I think we should adopt the "agile" methods: being reasonable about privacy as companies, describing company privacy policies explicitly on web sites and so forth, testing applications and policies out in the market, and refining. Sue the companies if they fail to implement the policies they claim they have. There are many reasons for doing it this way, but one reason is that people and society adapt to technology; it isn't just technology having to adapt to "the way people will always think". For example, I am on the middle-aged side and I have watched society adapt to the "privacy invasion" that I think is almost inevitable with the Internet. While I myself am a "transparent society" type, thinking it is fine if everyone knows my personal life (as long the behavior of authorities is also transparent), I am still amazed at how open my younger peers are as a whole class of people. From Facebook to MySpace, there is plenty of evidence that people are revealing more personal aspects of themselves in a more public way than ever before, fearlessly. I think this openness provides for a more rational and human-diversity respecting society, and celebrate it. And yet, when I reveal information about myself in this same way, it just feels a little weird. Don't get me wrong; I think people should be able to choose to turn location-tracking on and off whenever they want. It's just that when you try to develop laws or broadly-applied policies in advance of technology, you often fail. I guess a great example is P3P "Platform for Privacy Preferences", which is the "encoded privacy policy" system standardized by W3C and embedded in IE. It is largely ignored today, and the consumer doesn't even know it is there. I mean the consumer can turn on-and- off access to different web sites based on the encoded policy, but who actually does this? I think about the vast effort put behind this P3P technology in the late 90s and think it was just a huge waste. Dan R. Greening, Ph.D., CEO BigTribe Corporation, http:// dan.greening.name/contact.htm On Jun 28, 2006, at 8:00 PM, Andrew Turner wrote: >>At the same time, the sociotechnical problems that have long been >>expected >>from these systemsbprivacy invasion, privacy confusion, LBSpam, >>data-quality >>control issuesbare not yet real on a large scale, however well- >>characterized >>they may be. This is partly because LBS developers have adopted >>successful >>design patterns from other "read/write web" contexts, but also >>because the >>user base is just not that large or diverse yet. > >THis seems like just the time to start developing standards that make >sense and look to the future. Lets not design another static HTML, >that then has to wait 10 years for Javascript to make it dynamic >(without flash). There isn't "lock-in" yet, so we can develop GeoPriv, >anti-map-spam, etc. _______________________________________________ Geowanking mailing list Geowanking(a)lists.burri.to http://lists.burri.to/mailman/listinfo/geowanking ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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Re: [drone-list] TechJect Dragonfly
by Gregory Foster 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Following up on this thread, TechJect just closed out their Indiegogo campaign, which aimed to raise $110,000 dollars to cover their initial manufacturing goals. They raised $1,142,523. [1]http://www.indiegogo.com/robotdragonfly/x/1736250?c=home gf On 11/10/12 12:42 AM, Tim McNamara wrote: The military applications of this are silent surveillance and reconnaissance within buildings. The model they're selling here only weighs a few grams and probably couldn't sustain weaponry in the payload. The dragonfly design appears to be extremely agile, though and I guess there's nothing preventing larger models. The video seems to be actively soliciting sales from the intelligence and defence communities. Tim McNamara [2]@timClicks | [3]timmcnamara.co.nz On 10 November 2012 19:34, Gregory Foster <[4]gfoster(a)entersection.org> wrote: IEEE Spectrum (Nov 8) - "Somehow an Incredible Robotic Dragonfly is Now on Indiegogo": [5]http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/robotics-hardware/someho w-an-incredible-robotic-dragonfly-is-now-on-indiegogo From the article: So, uh, yeah, who are these guys and where did this thing come from? Well, the company, TechJect, is a spinoff from Georgia Tech's Robotics & Intelligent Machines Lab, and their robotic dragonfly has already been funded, with a million dollars (!) from the US Air Force Office of Scientific Research. I dunno what sort of super secret laser canon totin' version of this robot the USAF is currently playing around with, but the specs of the robot Dragonflies that are being offered on Indiegogo are pretty damn impressive. [6]http://www.techject.com/ HT @mathewi [7]http://twitter.com/mathewi/status/267145657226252291 gf -- Gregory Foster || [8]gfoster(a)entersection.org @gregoryfoster <> [9]http://entersection.com/ References 1. http://www.indiegogo.com/robotdragonfly/x/1736250?c=home 2. http://twitter.com/timClicks 3. http://timmcnamara.co.nz/ 4. mailto:gfoster@entersection.org 5. http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/robotics-hardware/somehow-an-in… 6. http://www.techject.com/ 7. http://twitter.com/mathewi/status/267145657226252291 8. mailto:gfoster@entersection.org 9. http://entersection.com/ _______________________________________________ drone-list mailing list drone-list(a)lists.stanford.edu Should you need to change your subscription options, please go to: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/drone-list If you would like to receive a daily digest, click "yes" (once you click above) next to "would you like to receive list mail batched in a daily digest?" You will need the user name and password you receive from the list moderator in monthly reminders. Should you need immediate assistance, please contact the list moderator. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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