July 2018 - cypherpunks-legacy

Firefox through Tor
by Eric H. Jung 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Hi, I'm happy to announce a new Firefox extension which is built with Tor in mind from the ground up. FoxyProxy - http://foxyproxy.mozdev.org I took the things I liked about SwitchProxy, TorButton, ProxyButton, QuickButton, xyzproxy, etc. and added a number of crucial features: * Tor Wizard - now zero configuration to use Firefox with Tor * Define proxy use based on URL patterns using wildcards and/or regular expressions: now you can route *.onion domains and web mail accounts (gmail, yahoo, etc) through Tor but not CNN and Slashdot, for example, without having to constantly change Firefox's proxy settings. * Define multiple proxies * No more wondering whether or not a URL loaded through a proxy: FoxyProxy includes a complete log of all URLs loaded, including which proxy was used, which pattern was matched, timestamps, etc. * Temporarily or permanently dedicate all URLs to go through a particular proxy * Temporarily or permanently disable use of a proxy * FoxyProxy hooks directly into Firefox via XPCOM--this yields much greater performance than the de facto standard of updating about:config preferences programmatically (used by every other proxy extensions I could find) * Lots more I hope you enjoy it. I look forward to your comments. Sincerely, Eric H. Jung ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

1 0

Status of opportunistic encryption
by Sandy Harris 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Some years back I worked on the FreeS/WAN project (freeswan.org) IPsec for Linux. One of our goals was to implement "opportunistic encryption", to allow any two appropriately set up machines to communicate securely, without pre-arrangement between the two system administrators. Put authentication keys in DNS; they look those up and can then use IKE to do authenticated Diffie-Hellman to create the keys for secure links. Recent news stories seem to me to make it obvious that anyone with privacy concerns (i.e. more-or-less everyone) should be encrypting as much of their communication as possible. Implementing opportunistic encryption is the best way I know of to do that for the Internet. I'm somewhat out of touch, though, so I do not know to what extent people are using it now. That is my question here. I do note that there are some relevant RFCs. RFC 4322 Opportunistic Encryption using the Internet Key Exchange (IKE) RFC 4025 A Method for Storing IPsec Keying Material in DNS and that both of FreeS/WAN's successor projects (openswan.org and strongswan.org) mention it in their docs. However, I don't know if it actually being used. -- Sandy Harris Zhuhai, Guangdong, China --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

1 0

Re: [tahoe-dev] several questions about tahoe backup
by Brian Warner 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

On 3/1/12 11:50 AM, Dmitriy Kazimirov wrote: > 98% of this are results of tahoe backup runs and deep-check --repair > --add-lease takes more than 2 days to complete and it never completed > successfully for one reason or another. Usually it crashes on > network(I think related to gateway's network connection) errors and > starts from beginning. Yeah, I'm really satrting to think that we need that RepairAgent that we keep talking about: something inside the tahoe client node (or inside the "Agent" that we discusses briefly at the last Summit) which can manage a rate-limited asynchronous interruptable/restartable check/repair/renew process. Doing it entirely from the command line is too fragile: it basically implies that the whole process needs to complete before 1: your CLI command gets killed, 2: the node gets bounced, 3: the client's connections to the storage servers remain intact. The hard part about the RepairAgent has always been how to configure it. But I'm starting to think that tahoe.cfg should just be able to list a couple of aliases and a frequency (once/day, etc). > I tried to make specific aliases for each tahoe backup destination and > parallize deep-check but new questions arise: > - if other gateway performs deep-check on directory, and at same time > - tahoe backup writes new backup - is it safe?Will worse possible > result be 'Uncoordinate Write Error' but no data loss except > possible current backup session? Backups use almost entirely immutable files and directories, and immutable files are not vulnerable to collision problems. The only mutable directory is the top-level one (which contains the timestamped subdirectories and the "Latest" link). So the only potential danger is that the "tahoe backup" is modifying that directory while the "deep-check --repair" is repairing it. It's hard to say what the chances are of bad things happening here. A couple of thoughts: - "tahoe backup" modifies the top-level directory at the very end of the process, while "deep-check --repair" visits the top directory at the very beginning of the process. If you start both at the same time, they probably won't collide. - if the directory needed repairing, then the "tahoe backup" modify-directory operation will effectively repair it at the same time, perhaps reducing the chances that deepcheck--repair will try to repair it later - The chances of UCWE resulting in lost data depends upon the encoding parameters and how many simultaneous writers there are. With 3-of-10, assuming all shares are available, there'd have to be 5 simultaneous versions of the file before none of them are recoverable (two shares of version A, two of version B, two*C, two*D, two*E). Which theoretically means that one tahoe-backup writer, one repairer, and one previously-existing version should always result in at least one version being recoverable. But, this is highly dependent upon what sort of damage the repairer was trying to fix in the first place. > - if several deep-checks are being performed on directory, from > different gateways(due for example script error) - is it safe?(I > knew it does not make sense to do so but what will be worse possible > result?) (incidentally deep-check without --repair is always safe: it doesn't modify the shares at all) Multiple deep-check --repair operations on the same directory runs the same UCWE risk as multiple writers trying to modify a directory at the same time: the danger is that each will successfully replace shares on different servers at the same time, resulting in some old "A" shares, some new "B" shares, and some new (different) "C" shares. Having a variety of share versions reduces your recoverability margins. We haven't ever tried to seriously model or test this. It would be interesting to create a directory, set up multiple clients, have them all repeatedly hammer away at it (making modifications) and measure how many UCWEs they get, and when/if the file becomes unrecoverable. It'd probably be a good idea to instrument the storage servers to send details of how the shares are changing to a common logfile, so we could reconstruct the process later. cheers, -Brian _______________________________________________ tahoe-dev mailing list tahoe-dev(a)tahoe-lafs.org http://tahoe-lafs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tahoe-dev ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

None
by Lee James 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

irtheory-owner(a)yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:37:20 +0100 Subject: RE: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com I'd like to hear how children who werent old enough to pronounce the colour were 'reds' who were rightly tortured (apparently) in your view, as well as the many women raped and tortured at the hands of SOA graduates. I'd also be keen to see evidence of this free-market success of which you talk, because it isn't in central america for the countless millions in poverty. Before, a person encourages free-markets elsewhere, how about encouraging them in the United States in order to really test the theory and give these nations a chance of economic development. The three most successful industries in the united states (steel, agriculture and techonology/military) are all state funded and protected in a exceedinly 'socialist' manner. There is no evidence in Europe of development occuring in industry any other way either. The defence of America and by proxy Reagan's crime in Central America is alarmingly close to Hitler's defence of his Genocide and also Stalin's killing of counter-revolutionarys (if we hadnt done it they wou;d have killed more, theyre the threat not us etc). Exactly at which point does a war (any war) stop being defensive because according to the history books the US has never fought an aggressive war. I'm not sure that it is defensive to defend a country against its own people, when europe did so it was called colonisation. >From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> >Reply-To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com >To: irtheory(a)yahoogroups.com, cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: [irtheory] War ain't beanbag. Irony is conserved. >Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 09:52:21 -0400 > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >At 6:11 AM +0000 6/13/04, Carmi Turchick wrote: > >Here is more about the connection between the death squads and the > >policy of genocide and our own American facility, the School of the > >Americas... > >Yawn. War, to paraphrase a famous American income-redistributionist, >ain't beanbag. > >Yes. We taught soldiers, hell, thugs, even, to kill commies. It was a >war. Remember? > >The commies were killing people too, remember? More to the point, >they wanted to kill lots more. Deliberately, or worse, through their >own ignorant mismanagement of the lives they would eventually have >total control of. > > >All those "innocent" people were either totalitarians or dupes. >Lenin's "useful idiots". Even the nuns. Even the bishops. Even the >nice Anglo church ladies from El Norte who thought that in a war >between Ghandi and, say, Stalin, Ghandi would win. Bambi vs. Godzilla >is more like it. Of course, like Lenin himself, ultimately, those >"idiots" were like Ghandi joining the war on Stalin's side. > >[Okay, so, in actuality, Ghandi *was* on Stalin's side, economically >and ideologically, at least, the world's most beatified useful idiot >in that regard. Certainly Nehru was on Stalin's team, explicitly so, >creating the world's second largest command economy after China's, >dooming tens of millions of his countrymen to famine, and most of the >rest to destitution -- for *decades* -- in the process, because food >prices were *calculated* by a committee somewhere instead of >discovered in a market like they're supposed to be, and because >cheaper, superior, foreign goods and services were legislated out of >Indian markets entirely. Except for the elite, of course...] > > >"Liberation" theology, remember that? ["Liberation" being yet another >communard verbal expropriation, like what they did to the word >"liberal". War is peace. Or, in the case of "liberation", and >"liberal", freedom is literally tyranny.] > >Remember Aristide's little ditty in praise of the "necklace"? > >Remember Ortega and the people whose property he expropriated, who he >jailed, and those small-businessman "counter-revolutionaries" he >eventually killed? He would have killed more if we'd let him. If >Reagan had let him. > >Don't think the "innocent" Allende would have been any different, >he'd already started the process of expropriation and confiscation of >people's livelihoods, and eventually, their lives, when, yes, >Pinochet took him out. Life is hard. War sucks. People die. > >And of course, there's the Sendero Luminoso, the "Shining" Path. Real >humanitarians. > >Oh. That's right. Butchers like the Sendero's Guzman, like Ortega, >or, these days, Chavez and Castro, are *heroes* to people like you. >"Freedom fighters," or some such emetic nonsense. I'm a functional >atheist (okay, a Unitarian; there's some pyroclastic irony for >you...), but one of the best things the Pope did -- after helping >first Thatcher and then Reagan *free* three-quarters of Eurasia, if >you now count India, and start what is an irreversible process in >China -- was to kill "liberation" theology in its metaphoric crib, >before it literally killed tens of millions of people, much more than >centuries of ignorance and cryptofeudal tyranny hadn't done already >in South America. (See, speaking of Guzman and Sendero, the works of >Hernando de Soto for more on that...) > > >A nation-state, if you remember your first political "science" class, >is about force and geographic monopolies thereof. Politics is about >who controls and spends the economic rents that a force-monopoly >violently expropriates from its citizenry, and about buying >non-violent acquiescence in that expropriation through "social" >programs and other forms of fraud, thus lowering the transaction cost >of what would have been a more violent act of theft. > >As Mancur Olsen said in "Power and Prosperity", a prince is a bandit >who doesn't move. > >Absent any *physical* brakes on his power -- be they economic or >violent -- whoever is in charge of a nation state, and whatever elite >he needs to keep himself in power, can do whatever they damn well >please. It is only an armed (first) and educated (second), and thus >*free* population that prevents them from turning into tyrants. >Stalin, the subject of "Power and Prosperity" -- and ultimate model >for erst-and-proto-tinpots from Santiago to Managua to Havana to >Caracas, from New Delhi to Baghdad, from Phnom Penh to Pyongyang -- >being the canonical example. > >Your heroes, from the "liberation" theology Church Ladies to Castro, >were about selling oppression to the masses. > >My heroes, certainly the people who ran, and, yes, those who >graduated from, the School of the Americas, thugs and all, were, >ultimately, on the side of good and right. And ultimately, by the >count of democracy versus tyranny in this half of the world -- more >important, by the count of free versus confiscatory >crypto-and-neo-feudal markets -- it looks like they won, so they were >on the right side of history as well. > >War ain't beanbag. Until we solve the problem of force-monopoly with >free markets someday, war, and monopolistic violence, is, >paradoxically, how we protect free markets, and, through them, >freedom itself. > >Irony, apparently, is abundant in the universe, and, like matter and >energy, force and fraud, it is conserved as well. > > >Cheers, >RAH > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: PGP 8.0.3 > >iQA/AwUBQMxbPcPxH8jf3ohaEQIV1QCg3WCvUqbISoWl83PYkCi04IflyJsAoI8p >/FuTkpzHwSDUaTG392g2yuB1 >=nx0v >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >-- >----------------- >R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> >The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> >44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA >"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, >[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to >experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' Sign up to the MSN Premium service in June and receive a FREE webcam worth #39.99! <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUK/2749??PS=47575>More details here. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1299psa5v/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr…> Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irtheory/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: <mailto:irtheory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>irtheory-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0