December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Stronghold
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of >> moderation. It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who >> claimed its products were weak. The whole moderation/censorship >> experiment was a terrible mistake. The actions taken by C2Net were >> completely unjustified. > >Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A >guy who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one >list. The messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he >worked for Mc Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would >you blame them for this as well? C2 employees informally mentioned libel suits to several cypherpunks, such as Tim May. Given that a good percentage of the company, perhaps a majority, was involved with this incident, it seems reasonable to judge the character of the company based on these actions. This incident changed my view of C2 considerably. Initially I held them in the highest regard. No longer. (Your employment by C2 should have been mentioned in your post. Many people on the list may not know about it. It is relevant.)

1 0

Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/2/97 2:35 AM, Jim Choate (ravage(a)ssz.com) passed this wisdom: >Remember: A gun is like a finger, just point it at what you want to >hit. > >I have met hundreds of great shots in my life, there are many >people forwhom this sort of behaviour would not be delusional. My >grandfather (who you'll hear more about in a minute) used to >delight us as small kids by lighting matches stuck in wood fence >posts with a .22 pistol from about 50 yds. My cousin from Louisiana >likes to shoot squirrels (if you can callit that) by passing the >bullet just in front of their nose, causes lung hemorraghes and >they just fall off the limb. Me, I always miss or blow theirteeny >little head off, it's apparently a game of 1/4 inches. I work with >anex-gomer (ie USMC) pilot who is quite phenomenal with his .357 >Desert Eagle,his groupings are just about an inch at 25 yds. None of these targets shoots back ... none of these targets pump up much adrenaline. I would never call myself a great shot (I did qualify expert at both rifle, M-14, "A" course and pistol, .45, 1911A1), and I can tell you of making several 25-35 yard snap shots in the jungle at moving shooting targets with the adrenaline driving my eyeballs through the roof ... but they were exactly that, pure reflex, center of body mass shots, under max pressure. I must in all fairness recall the other three to six shots each time that could have gone anywhere and probably did. The point is, "shooting to wound" is a dangerous delusion! *no one* can predict what a bullet will do when it enters the body. The rule I have always followed is don't take out your gun unless you are going to use it; don't use it unless you intend to kill. Makes decisions much easier on that basis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDQjysdZgC62U/gIEQL2pwCfYadqKN/3+wKF1BYC7MZxp8y3ud0An1L4 yXD3o+rsefpV8FO8MqD6OEtl =GHfD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key> "The Box said Win '95 or better - So I used a Macintosh!" -- Harold Herbert Tessman

1 0

Re: Quor's cipher
by Antonomasia 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Antonomasia <ant(a)notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote: > My attack takes a long chunk of known text and looks for repetition. > > ppppppppppppppp.11.pppppppppppppppppppppp > ccccccccccccccc.22.cccccccccccccccccccccc > > When a two neighbouring p-c pairs are the same you can test > whether they have the same value of a and b. > (That is a_n == a_n+1 and b_n == b+n+1, a != b usually.) > > This involves 16 inputs to each byte - very cheap. > What I really want next is to know "a". nobody(a)REPLAY.COM wrote: > Wouldn't this only happen (on average) in one out of every 65536 p-c > pairs? Yes (counting only those we test). > Since the state array is changed entirely with every 128 bytes > encrypted, 1 out of 2^16 doesn't seem to help much. This finding doesn't uncover a great deal, I agree, and what it does uncover is transient. 1 out of 2^16 is the number of pairs we test to find a point with the property we're looking for. The measures to compare this to are: message length several times 65k is fairly low cost of testing low benefit of test when passed also low :-( The changes are regular though, progressing through the array in two places. That's why I proposed testing neighbouring p-c pairs because you can be almost sure the relevant state (and it's which part of the state array is relevant that's uncertain) is the same for the two. In fact it would be nice to spot this: ppppppppppppppp.11.ppppppppppppppppppppp ccccccccccccccc.22.ccccccccccccccccccccc and see that a and b were the same, but the underlying state array changed in a relevant way. This would be indicated by a slightly less than total match, but still rare enough not to be a fluke. This could allow you to test possible values of a and b, and perhaps get 4 bits of a. But a and b don't persist over nearby bytes so I'm not clear what I'd do if I got them. What it would be nice to have next is a more damaging result emerge from this or some other observation so that we could determine more of the state without going to long range comparisons. This cypher is constructed differently from RC4 or fish - not as simple as WAKE but broadly comparable to Sapphire II. I think I'll enlist the help of a search engine. It's more than likely there other things waiting to be done to this. Quor's friend 'nobody' has actually put some crypto on the list -let's see what we can do with/to it. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant(a)notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ##############################################################

2 1

Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial products and services
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to owner-espam(a)lists.espace.net using -f X-Orig-From: "Bell, Lynwood" <hansa(a)ibm.net> X-e$pam-source: Various X-Sender: rah(a)pop.sneaker.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:44:21 -0400 To: espam(a)intertrader.com From: Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> Subject: Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial products and services Sender: owner-espam(a)lists.espace.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bell, Lynwood" <hansa(a)ibm.net> Reply-To: hansa(a)ibm.net Organization: The Span-Hansa Group MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hettinga, Robert" <rah(a)shipwright.com> CC: "Cate, Vince" <vince(a)offshore.com.ai> Subject: Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial products and services Bob, I just announced this today for our public company. It might be appropriate to send it to either or both of your e$lab and FC98 mailing lists. I am not going to be able to accommodate hundreds of ventures but, given that some will have their own resources, money, etc. and only want the venue and the Bank to play with... it may be very interesting for all of us. Add this to the pot in whatever way you feel is appropriate. Cheers, Lyn ------------- Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc. The Hansa Bank Bldg, Box 213, Landsome Road, The Valley, Anguilla, B.W.I., TV1 02P Phone (264) 497-3800, Fax 497-3801, email hansa(a)ibm.net PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Hansa.net and Hansa Bank join forces to encourage the development of e-commerce financial products and services to further expand Hansa.net's offerings of Location Optimized Commerce on the Internet (LOCI ). October 1, 1997 - Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc. together with Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, both of Anguilla, British West Indies, and both members of the Span-Hansa Group, have agreed to jointly sponsor emerging Internet technologies which will enhance e-commerce through specifically tailored banking and financial applications. Lynwood S. Bell, Chairman of Hansa Bank, the controlling shareholder of Hansa.net a publicly traded company, said "Many excellent start-up companies lack a vehicle through which to perfect their product or service and to test their market acceptance. Most traditional domestic banks, encumbered with vast legacy systems and bureaucracies are reluctant to entertain these developers in live trials. The Hansa Bank, a British regulated private merchant and investment bank offering a full range of banking and brokerage services, has agreed to provide platforms for approved developers and to participate actively with them. All applications will be thoroughly screened, carefully controlled in their development and testing phases and will be completely isolated from the Bank's existing business. The Bank expects that some of these products may eventually result in leading edge products and services for the Bank." Hansa.net's role will be to assist in marketing any developed products to other banks and financial institutions. As well Hansa.net's existing LOCI clients are expected to benefit from the Bank's new or enhanced services. The first project, currently undergoing final review prior to being accepted by the Bank for testing, involves a Dutch developer of digital chequing. Plans are to demonstrate the product at the Financial Cryptograph 98 Conference, February 23-26, 1998 (see http:www.fc98.ai). Hansa Bank is one of the sponsors of this conference. Vince Cate, an Internet and cryptography expert recently featured in Forbes and Wired Magazines is participating with Hansa.net and Hansa Bank on this project. He said, "Many brilliant e-commerce ideas and products never reach the market because they have no incubator or no real life environment in which to test. Hansa.net and Hansa Bank provide both. As well, Anguilla is the perfect venue for such development in terms of sample size, global perspective, government support, and of course, the absence of any taxes. We fully expect that many of the products developed will end up in companies which are incorporated and reside here in Anguilla." About Hansa.net and the related Span-Hansa Group Hansa.net was founded in 1978 for computer systems development and software design. In 1985 the company went public, and subsequently expanded into software product development, marketing, and international trade technology. Hansa.net's primary role is to coordinate all of the elements of Location Optimized Commerce on the Internet (LOCI pronounced "low-see") for its clients. Hansa.net trades on the Vancouver Stock Exchange under the symbol "HAN" Both companies are part of the Span-Hansa Group comprised of ten organizations doing business in as many international locations. The Group's activities also include the financing of intellectual property, public stock offerings, acquisitions and mergers, and consulting on international business structures and trade. The Group maintains offices in Amsterdam, Barbados, and Anguilla, More information on the Span-Hansa Group and on other Span-Hansa strategic partners can be found on the Company's Internet home page: http://www.hansa.net. Lynwood S. Bell President Contact: Hansa.net - Lynwood Bell Vince Cate (264) 497-3800 hansa(a)ibm.net (264) 497-3255 vince(a)offshore.com.ai The Vancouver Stock Exchange has neither approved nor disapproved of this release. ====================================================================== LYNWOOD BELL - Span-Hansa Group, Hansa.net Global Commerce, Hansa Bank http://www.hansa.net ====================================================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

1 0

Re: Stronghold
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Lucky Green <shamrock(a)cypherpunks.to> writes: > On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote: > > > > > C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation. > > It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its > > products were weak. The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a > > terrible mistake. The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified. > > Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy > who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The > messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he worked for Mc > Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would you blame them for > this as well? Are you serious? The messages dropped were those which made (spurious) claims of weaknesses in C2 products. And later messages were dropped which attempted to discuss the dropping of earlier messages. The effect was that subscribers to the filtered list not only were not exposed to the messages critical of C2, they were prevented from knowing that a controversy existed about the filtering policies. There can be little doubt of the truth of these facts. One of us is remembering things wrongly. And yes, if the moderator were a McDonalds employee and he not only dropped messages which criticized McDonalds, but also filtered out later messages complaining about his actions, then I'd jolly well blame him.

1 0

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Individuals need ways to defend themselves from the physical aggression of others. One of the reasons why people associate into societies, cities, and governments, is for the advantages of protection which can be achieved by large numbers of people acting in concert against their common enemy. They also insitute police forces and national defense agencies for the same reason: defense against physical aggression. Everyone on the planet has enemies, and anyone can become, or behave essentially as, an enemy - even someone's physically stronger kid brother who decides to hit them with a stone because of talking on the phone too long, even a former lover/husband who decides to kill their girlfriend/wife out of jealousy. Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help. But even if there were security guards constantly available at every street corner or planted inside one's house, the principle is the same: people are physially vulnerable and need defense from those who would take advantage of them, who would by weaken them and do physical harm. Guns are imperfect tools and humans are often imperfect fools in the use of them. Se la vie. Nevertheless, until the design of guns is improved, or until there is a better weapon, a better tool invented which can be used by individuals - independently of organized defense agencies - for their own use in regard of their own safety, guns will be manufactured, sold, and bought. And used. Killing people is a Bad Thing, but there exist people who don't prevent themselves from doing harmful, destructive things to others. At that particular point in time, when they are about to commit their crime against another, their potential victims are in the position of having to do something of practical use, and quickly. They could use karate, or ju-jitsu, or ninja stars, or call their dog to attack, or yell for help, or use their special pocket knife, or run, or use a gun. But they must do *something*, they must employ some means to prevent from being harmed, or from having their valuables taken, or else suffer the consequences of debility or death. Such is the position which an "out-of-control" person can put one in. It is possible to reason that such uncontrolled people need to have been raised better, could have received psychological assistance, should have been given an alternative view of life, might have been presented with better values and philosophies, etc. But you have to also consider how much intellectual support any individual must be provided - must they be programmed from birth with the proper structure of behavior, in order to have around oneself the convenience of living with "good people" who are not inimical to the society? (and would that be a society of real humans, of interest to other real humans) Is what a person makes of themselves ultimately a personal project, or is it to be pre-determined and continuously managed by others (parents, teachers, guidance counselors, psychologists, government clerks, policing agencies, government agencies, government leaders). When you relate to a person, will you be relating to someone with their own identity and personal ambitions, who make independent decisions about the actions they take, or only to a product of other people's influence? In any case, when someone behaves counter to your own wishes and seeks do with you what they will, or to take from you what they will, including your life, you must determine whether to allow it or how to prevent it - and if moved to prevent it, what will work to accomplish that. It might be necessary to kill that Bad Person (though not their whole family or relatives or neighborhood or race or country). .. Blanc

1 0

Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd) > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 18:52:18 -0400 > From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr(a)together.net> > None of these targets shoots back ... none of these targets pump up > much adrenaline. I have been shot at several times, some were hunting accidents and some were intentional. I did not freek out nor did my adrenalin rush impede my ability to think or to react. I did shoot back in each case. I am still alive and don't have a single bullet hole in my body so I must be doing something right. Don't know about them, I left the area in every case ASAP. > can tell you of making several 25-35 yard snap shots in the jungle at > moving shooting targets with the adrenaline driving my eyeballs > through the roof My house at 1am is not comparable to the jungle nor is the psychological situation comparable either. I am not confused about where or what is going on nor am I worried about making my tour. I am faced with the clear situation of somebody who wants to do me bodily harm. That doesn't scare me, it pisses me off to no end. When I get a rush I don't shake and such, I get very calm and methodical. It's only after the crisis has passed that I tend to sit down and shake like hell. > The point is, "shooting to wound" is a dangerous delusion! No shit. Let me make this clear. The ONLY way I would even consider shooting to wound was if the burglar was CLEARLY UNARMED, and the only reason that would happen was because in Texas shooting unarmed persons, even burglars, is illegal other than that you'd be dead. In any other situation my intent is to kill, kill, kill. As I said before, I would start with a center chest body shot and work up (which is natural since the aim point for successive shots will rise). > have always followed is don't take out your gun unless you are going > to use it; don't use it unless you intend to kill. Makes decisions > much easier on that basis. We agree on this point. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

1 0

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 18:22:26 -0700 > From: Blanc <blancw(a)cnw.com> > Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or > crypto" > Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real > animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when > there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help. I have to object to the inclusion of drug addicts, they do what they do because the legislators and police want to stick their noses in other peoples business. If drug addicts resort to crime then society as a whole must garner some of the responsibility of putting them in that situation. In short the methods we use to control drug use in this country promote crime. This does not apply to others who would do this anyway and happen to take drugs, which means the drug laws are clearly unreasonable. > something of practical use, and quickly. They could use karate, or > ju-jitsu, or ninja stars, or call their dog to attack, or yell for help, or Isn't killing dogs a bad thing? I am shure my dog thinks so. Perhaps their is a lesson to be had in comparative psychology here. It's much easier to ask another entity to die for you because you consider them different and therefore of less value in the grand scheme of things. Human history is full of such instances. This also happens to be the rationale a lot if not all burglars use to justify their actions as well. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

1 0

None (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:04:09 +0200 (MET DST) > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd) > From: nobody(a)REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) > When all your customers are anonymous, you don't get to be very choosy. Shure you can. The operator offers a simple service, resend email anonymously. If the result of that email is the anon user bringing hardship on the remailer cancel their account. If they do it again, cancel it again. Such is the woes of a commercial remailer. Outside of that, if they don't like the fact that I won't do other things for them when they are anonymous that is too bad. Like I said, I offer specific services with specific goals for a specific fee. If the results are not what you wanted, too bad. You want my other services then you'll have to give up the anonymity because I need a certain level of security that dealing with anonymous customers simply can't provide. I would operate a commercial remailer, I would limit my services to keeping the remailer up and the accounts valid so long as the money flowed in from the users, period. I don't do dedicated lines, security audits, development, etc. to anonymous customers. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

3 2

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:47:32 -0400 > From: Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> > Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" > The only conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians, even armed > civilians with combat experience, are so overwhelmingly peace loving > that they will bend very far backwards to avoid trouble, even if it > means thousands of hours of work. Can the same be said of career > military or government people? A D E C L A R A T I O N By the REPRESENTATIVES of the U N I T E D S T A T E S O F A M E R I C A, In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled. [deleted material] Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. [deleted material] ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

1 0