December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >>>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To >>>kill. Just like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be >>>used at some point. >> >>Although guns are obviously designed for killing things, this does >>not mean that they will be used. This can be seen from the >>statistics. There are far fewer murders than there are guns. >>Almost all of them are never used for killing someone. > >You can't deny that the more guns there are available, the more >people will get shot. Oh yes, I can. In fact, I believe the opposite is the case. The statistics bear this out. But, your claim was that a weapon will eventually be used to kill somebody. I guess it's clear at this point that this was wildly inaccurate. >There may be some people that are capable of owning a gun and using >it wisely (ie. not), but I don't believe that this is a significant >fraction of any population. You should come to the United States and spend some time around the shooting community. The people are real pleasant, real easy to get along with, and real careful with their weapons. >>You are also not considering the case where one person has a gun and >>another does not. The situation is more stable if both people are >>armed. (And don't claim you are talking about disarming a whole >>society. You aren't, just part of it.) > >Urgl? The situation only becomes more explosive if both sides are >armed. That can occur, but in general nobody likes to be shot. Even if you are going to shoot your opponent regardless, if he has a gun you move more cautiously. >Look at the arms race, which is now, thank god, over. I am amazed at >the amount of restraint both sides displayed during that time, >although it's been really close a few times. What would have happened if the Russians didn't develop nuclear weapons? I think they would have been nuked sooner or later, don't you? And, we aren't talking about an arms race, here. We are talking about whether citizens are allowed to own a few rifles. >It's really simple: If there are no guns, no one will get shot. You will find this difficult to achieve, however. >I _am_ talking about disarming a population. I don't know which 'it' >I'm not part of, but I am definately not part of the 'it' that >promotes death by gunshot. You are not talking about disarming the police and the military are you? Just as I thought: you only want to disarm the civilians. That's not such a great idea, judging by history. >>>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a >>>lot of people very dead. This is a Bad Thing. >> >>Depends who they are. Bet the Dutch resistance made good use of >>their weaponry, eh? > >Even if they did, dead people are still a Bad Thing. We had no >quarrel with the soldiers the resistance killed. Neither did most of >them had any quarrel with us. Just like the US troopers in Vietnam or >some other place. Are you arguing that the Dutch resistance should not have resisted? I believe they did the right thing, myself. I do not believe it was a Bad Thing. I believe it was a Good Thing. I believe they did not kill enough people. >>Be aware that the gun control lobby has often used misleading >>statistics. For instance, you will hear a lot about "handgun >>deaths". It turns out that most of these are suicides. While >>undesirable, most people perceive a difference between somebody >>killing themselves and a nutcase doing his thing at a school. > >I am not the gun control lobby,... No, but it appeared that you may have been misled by them. >I am a citizen in a mostly gun-free society, and glad of it. People >getting shot here, be it robbery, suicide, police violence or self >defence is a rare occurence. Police violence is caused by gun ownership? I doubt this very much. >Over her, drive-by shootings are something from fairy tales. Oddly enough, this is mostly true here as well. It is unclear what is magical about the words "drive by shooting." I believe this phrase lacks real content and is simply a trigger for hysteria. The implication is that people are randomly firing on people in the streets. While this may occur once in a great while, it is extremely uncommon. Usually people kill for a reason. Usually they are trying to kill their enemies. In the U.S., this is often related to the black market. Whether somebody kills their enemy from a car or not is irrelevant. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDP3UZaWtjSmRH/5AQEHIQf/RaA4NODawPxLEEI5mMGPnMG/+7ASceoL p6i2oM8c0w2Qu7yx7FfK5uC0wtRpyQFZXFaPpZ7AoMUYumAXCnnVLdksKaxMdsCP 0Dv0I1Bg5lh+Ko5XEyCHBl472MQH5P7rg6sWil3+X6D4KPEh6IhfQ/WAdczAOhGG h1pDDTHOiRYO52x4Lb5vyH58OtyzxAqoBUH2YD6ReVcdYbgUXcXD54UGTbzsPbzw 5Rlx/M5gCMXOpKoISZnsCPhZyPrw8a/kG3VPdbmJC4XbE4evohCeA+CDZzy2HTDb x3S2iUnmPEw6Cg4KhXeKfyznIXNgLWLDUu5tOpc9qtuCNrWeBc1DzA== =/9qs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

InfoWar 27 / TEXT
by The Same Guy 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The True Story of the InterNet Part III InfoWar Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain by TruthMonger <tm(a)dev.null> Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- InfoWar Table of Contents * Anarchist Post of the Century Alex Le Clue ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anarchist Post of the Century ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend From: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> To: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net >Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones(a)insight.dcss.McMaster.CA) >posted the following to the EFC mailing list: >2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys > http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html Let's not forget that cops are often the bad guys. And I don't mean this in a macho, off-the-pigs way. I mean that throughout history the "cops" are those who have enforced the laws and whims of tyrants, who have arrested and tortured and executed dissidents and nonconformists of all flavors, and who were the "King's men" in the times of the Founders. Even in more recent decades in the U.S., don't forget it was "cops" who harassed civil rights workers, who broke up perfectly legal strikes, who arrested and imprisoned Eugene Debs for speaking out against the draft in particular and a foolish war, WW 1, in general, and so on. One need only look to J. Edgar Hoover and his police state measures. (In fact, the very term "police state" tells us all we need to know about whether or not "Mr. Policeman is Your Friend" is always, or even most of the time, true.) And with full awareness that I am invoking Godwin's Law, the "cops" in Europe in the 1933-45 period were the enforcers of Hitler's policies. Here's a list of some folks throughout history and in various regimes who would likely have reason not to want to escrow their keys with the local police: Jews, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, heretics, schismatics, heathens, poets, authors, Scharansky, Solzhenitsyn, refuseniks, Chinese dissidents, students in front of tanks, Branch Davidians, Scientologists, Jesus, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, African National Congress, UNITA, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, colonial rebels, patriots, Tories, Basque separatists, Algerian separatists, secessionists, abolitionists, John Brown, draft opponents, communists, capitalists, imperialist lackeys, anarchists, Charlie Chaplin, Galileo, Joan of Arc,, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, civil rights workers, Margaret Sanger, birth control activists, abortionists, anti-abortionists, Michael Miliken, Robert Vesco, Marc Rich, Nixon's Enemies, Hoover's enemies, Clinton's enemies, Republicans, Democrats, anarchists, labor organizers, pornographers, readers of "Playboy," viewers of images of women whose faces are uncovered, Amateur Action, Jock Sturges, violators of the CDA, alt.fan.karla-homulka readers, Internet Casino customers, Scientologists, Rosicrucians, royalists, Jacobeans, Hemlock Society activists, Jimmy Hoffa, John L. Lewis, Cesar Chavez, opponents of United Fruit, land reformers, Simon Bolivar, Robin Hood, Dennis Banks, American Indian Movement, Jack Anderson, Daniel Ellesberg, peace activists, Father Berrigan, Mormons, Joseph Smith, missionaries, Greenpeace, Animal Liberation Front, gypsies, diplomats, UN ambassadors, Randy Weaver, David Koresh, Ayatollah Khomeini, John Gotti, Papists, Ulstermen, IRA, Shining Path, militia members, tax protesters, Hindus, Sikhs, Lech Walesa, Polish labor movement, freedom fighters, revolutionaries, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and "suspects" --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alex Le Clue ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Axle Le Clue shook his head in disbelief, as he read the CypherPunks list post that had been sent by his clueless Doppelganger, Alex Le Heux. Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" From: alexlh(a)xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux) To: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive governments or political turbulence. Most guns that are used against another person there are used to commit crime or to defend against those armed criminals. Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> wrote: >Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their >occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people >who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and >there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance, >there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not >only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch >informers, but there were even Dutch SS units. You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?! Alex -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDNpTNuYAh4dUSo/EQK3bwCeKJv4AW0kOwjSRitLi7HDa7KEaW8AoN4F OwK1wOG19pazc93T1twP1Evp =FsmU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Axle Le Clue had been following this thread, in which a large number of CypherPunks had contributed their perspective, to little effect, for the most part. Alex Le H[clu]e[less]ux, despite a variety of sensible, well-reasoned posts by a number of different American CypherPunks, seemed to remain, in his own mind, a world-class expert on a country in which he did not reside. What was especially sad, was that the poor, dumb fucker wasn't even a spook. Axle Le Clue decided that, since the rather civil posts by the other list members were not helping his clueless twin from across the sea to come half-way to his senses, that he would step into his VerityMonger suit and bring the boy up to speed on what an ignorant asshole he was making of himself. It was the least he could do for an evil twin Subject: When you realize that you're too stupid to live, you can borrow my gun. From: Axellc(a)xsDRUGS4all.hi (Axle Le Clue) To: cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM Alex, Did you know that all Europeans are exactly 5' 7" tall, have light brown hair and limp slightly when they walk? I know this because I watch TV and that makes me a goddamn fucking expert on you low-life foreigners who aren't like us, over here. If you disagree with my view of your region of the world, then why don't you get your head out of your fucking ass so that you have an outside chance of expressing an opinion or viewpoint that you didn't suck out of the cocks of the mass media when it comes to our region of the world. I saw a news story on TV the other day about two senior citizens who drew down on a would-be robber in a restaurant, or some such, using their illegal guns, which they carried for their own protection. Yep, I saw it in the news once. Today some kid slashed his mater's throat, and then went to school and whacked out a couple of his classmates with a rifle. I have seen this every half-fucking-hour since it happened, and will no doubt be shown all of the messy details another few hundred times before the mass media who seem to be in charge of spoon-feeding people like yourself their world-view is done creating your reality for you. You want nerve, pal? I've got the fucking nerve to suggest that you petition your fucking government to take in a few million US government created nigger crack-heads, so that your country can teach our citizens how to treat them with love and respect. To tell the truth, I'd rather you took the white-bread junkies, because my nigger drug addict acquaintances have treated me much better than my honkey junkie pals. Correct me if I'm wrong (but I never am), but it seems to me that Europe is not even interested in saving our Black-African Americans from the horrible abuse they suffer as a result of our country's racism. Come and get 'emsee if they'll go. The US has racial problems because we have different races. We also have a whole shitload of racial harmony. All over the world, there are a variety of countries engaged in mass murder and genocide, at any given point in time. You try coming to the US and slaughtering even a few thousand of any particular race, religion, or ethnic group, and you won't even be able to take a wild guess at the number of people of various races, religions and ethnic groups that will be on your ass like shit on stink. You hypocritical piece of shit--having the fucking audacity to conceitedly brag about how the people of Europe have "put the crap of WWII behind us" and suggest that it is something that we "haven't managed to do." Want the cold, hard facts of life, Bubba? You didn't put WWII 'behind' you. We did! Gun-loving Americans conquered your continent and gave you your countries back instead of enslaving you, like every other winner in history has done. Some of us discriminate against Jews. Do you know why? Because we HAVE some! We were giving them refuge while Europe was massacring them by the millions. Now you have the balls to say we're not all treating them right all of the time. Buy a fucking clue! NEWS FLASH!!! Fascism hadn't died, it has just gone underground and crept into every facet of life through the corporate and government power mongers. The government and the mass media are working the citizens like dumb fish on a hook, who are still trying to swallow the worm. There is a New World Order on the way, and it isn't going to be any prettier than the last time it was tried. You can dismiss as paranoid ranters and ravers, those who decry the increasing loss of our freedom and privacy, but you would be better served to listen and learn from them, rather than criticize their determination to defend their liberty, to the death, if necessary. Why? Because these are the same people who defended Europe's liberty, to the death. The danger is not the freedom lovers who are armed and declaring the line they will not let others step over, in compromising their rights and freedoms. The danger is the sheeple who believe the government and their media shills when they say that the Thought Police only want Austria. The Privacy Police only want the Jews. The danger is the sheeple who buy the government lie that they need to deny us our rights and freedoms to solve the problems that they, themselves, have created. If you can't see this clearly, then there is nothing that I or any of the other CypherPunks can say to change your perception of the source of creeping fascism that is leading to yet another attempt to create a New World Order. I love the American people. I despise the secret American government. I feel the same about many other countries I have lived in or visited. I do not want to see your children, or mine, fighting in the future over what color to paint their prison cells, instead of fighting to escape, and be free. When the cattle cars stop at the end of the line, the people you find there are not nearly as civil and reasonable as the ones who checked your identity cards at the beginning of the trip, to make sure that you were properly processed according to your rights under the law. I think you are an idiot to believe that the threat of weapons in the hands of the citizens is a greater threat than weapons only in the hands of the rich and powerful. However, if Europe is conquered by the forces of evil, once again, I am sure that myself and many other Americans will do what we can to come pull your ass out of the fire. It may take a little longer, this time, though, since we may have to kick our own fascist government's ass before we come kick the shit out of your dictators. No need to thank usit's just the way Americans are. VerityMonger "If you want to conquer the world, you're going to have to come through me." ("Do you feel lucky, Hitler? Welldo you?) Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <theSameGuy(a)theSamePlace.Old>" "You can't get there from here." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet') Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 0

counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you. anonymous assholes are your friend
by Zooko Journeyman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I just got through reading another hilarious post from Anonymous, and I realized that instead of filtering anonymous posts _out_ of my reading list like I used to, I've gradually started filtering them _in_. I was thinking about why, and it illustrates a counter- intuitive hypothesis that's been germinating in my head for a few days/months/years. I'll call it "Zooko's Law of Evolutionary, Counter-Intuitive, Painful Serendipity": In an evolving ecosystem, things which appear to do harm often result in benefit. For example, if you consider having lots of healthy, happy bunnies to be a benefit, you might consider an influx of voracious wolves to be bad news. But in many cases the selective pressure exerted by the wolf population will result in stronger bunny genes, healthier bunnies, more bunny babies and cetera. In the case that the wolves leave again, or some other aspect of the environment changes (winter comes, etc.) then the population of passive grass-nibbling bunnies will turn out to be disappointingly fragile compared to the population of well-exercised wolf-fleeing bunnies. Now you might complain that I am not playing fair by tossing in these hypothetical environment changes late in the game. If we are evaluating _just_ the influx of wolves, and not some possible developments such as the wolves passing on, winter coming and so forth, then "obviously" the bunnies were better off without wolves. But perhaps that's just the point. In an evolving ecosystem, you _can't_ measure success without considering the likelihood of continual change. You might also object that I am sneaking in some unfounded Platonic concept of "bunny goodness" which only holds in certain contexts. I.e. maybe the environment will change in a way that penalizes bunnies with sinewy muscles and fast hearts and rewards big fat stupid bunnies who only think of the next nibble. Okay. Maybe I am. But my intuition tells me that this isn't some human-prejudice Platonic Ideal slipping in, but that in fact competition _does_ usually make the competitors better suited for all sorts of likely environmental changes. Now why do the cpunks care? Because I think the invasion of flaming, spamming Vulisses and "Graham-John Buellers" was good for the cpunks list. It drives away people with too little intelligence, stomache-strength, technical know-how or egostic attitude manage their own list input without depending on group dynamics to manage it for them. Okay, so like all "natural" selections, it takes out a few of the good guys too. I still miss Perry Metzger's involvement, but if we had to lose Perry in order to lose a few dozen clueless loudmouths, then so be it. Anyway, I consider it a Bad Thing that anonymous remailers are so difficult to learn and use. I would approve if point-n- click remailers and remailer clients were widely distributed. But in another application of Zooko's Law of Evolutionary Serendipity, the fact that remailers are hard to use means that the people who use them are smarter than average. So maybe _that's_ why I've found it rewarding to select _for_ anonymous posts instead of against in recent times. And why I toy with the notion of fomenting the kind of infowar "war games" that Phill Hallam-Baker hates. Damn, I wish Daniel Dennett were reading this list. Regards, Zooko Journeyman P.S. Just to tie up one loose end-- you might notice that I counted the flame-invasion as a goodness because it drove off "clueless loudmouths". But what's the difference between a "Graham-John Buellers" and a normal crypto-groupie? Is this a double-standard? Not at all. The clueless loudmouths that I am glad to be rid of are an insidious sort, like William H. Geiger III, Paul Bradley, and rest-his-soul Jim Bell who are on-topic and sane enough to attract attention from the real thinkers, but who are prolific and mediocre enough to pull down the over-all quality of discourse. Apologies to the named people for hurting your feelings. It's nothing personal, but I have to call 'em like I see 'em. Cut down the volume of your output to just the very best of your articles, and maybe I'll stop filtering you out.

2 1

Re: Stronghold
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: > > Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> writes: > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: > > Those who are newcomers to the list should know that Vulis has never > > presented any evidence substantiating his vague claims that Stronghold > > is insecure or has backdoors (or whatever the claims were). Vulis is > > conducting a personal vendetta against one of C2Net's staff members and > > anyone who happened to be or become associated with him. > Nor do I have to present any evidence. You misordered this: it should say "Nor do I have any evidence to present." > I'm not the one selling StrongHold. No, you're the one trying to torpedo its sales to get back at certain individuals for some perceived slight. > I have received several threatening communications from C2Net's lawyers, > which were discussed at length on this list. To avoid unpleasant disputes > I agreed not to disseminate my opinions about StrongHold. Amazingly, C2Net doesn't like to see its product publicly slandered by reptiles like Vulis. If Vulis' opinion were based on anything other than personal ill will - ie, if he had ever actually downloaded and examined Stronghold and found any problems with it - he would have a leg to stand on. As it is, his allegations are completely unfounded. > Please keep this in mind if you consider buying it. Keep in mind that anything Vulis says is in all likelihood a complete lie.

3 3

index.html
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

CNN logo Navigation Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros Main banner AST. Working for your business. rule BOY SHOOTS SISTER FOR TALKING ON PHONE TOO LONG October 1, 1997 Web posted at: 11:11 p.m. EDT (0311 GMT) ORANGE PARK, Florida (AP) -- A 14-year-old boy shot his sister for talking on the telephone too long, a law enforcement official said. The boy, who was not identified because of his age, was charged with attempted murder. His 15-year-old sister was treated for a gunshot wound to her chest and released from a hospital. The boy said that his sister was getting on his nerves for talking on the phone too long, the sheriff's office said. He said he took his mother's .22-caliber revolver from a locked box in her bedroom. The girl was reading a book when she was shot Monday. When officers arrived, the boy was talking on the phone. "I could understand a temper thing, but this kid had the gun for four or five hours before he went into his sister's bedroom and shot at her twice," said sheriff's Sgt. Wes Gronikowski. Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. _________________________________________________________________ Infoseek search ____________________ ____ ____ _________________________________________________________________ rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards You said it... [INLINE] AST. Working for your business. rule To the top © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.

1 0

index.html
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

CNN logo Navigation Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros Main banner Visit Regal at Buick.com rule NATIONWIDE CRACKDOWN ON MAIL FRAUD BEGINS Mail fraud graphic October 1, 1997 Web posted at: 11:11 p.m. EDT (0311 GMT) WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Federal, state and local law enforcement agencies joined hands with more than 1,500 private sector volunteers Wednesday to launch a nationwide crackdown on mail fraud. "Project Mailbox," initiated by the Federal Trade Commission, U.S. Postal Inspection Service, the National Association of Attorneys General and the American Association of Retired People, targets con artists who use mass mail to defraud consumers. The FBI estimated several years ago that an estimated $40 billion a year is lost to mail and telemarketing scams that include a range of deceptive claims such as phony bills, bogus advance-fee card offers and false contest claims. One goal of the new effort is to get a more accurate and up-to-date estimate on the size and nature of this problem. To assist, AARP is asking members to turn over unsolicited and suspicious mail to law enforcement officials. The coalition is also launching a consumer education campaign. rule Related sites: Note: Pages will open in a new browser window * AARP * Federal Trade Commission * United States Postal Service External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. _________________________________________________________________ Infoseek search ____________________ ____ ____ _________________________________________________________________ rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards You said it... [INLINE] Visit Regal at Buick.com rule To the top © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.

1 0

Upgrade to first class - nearly every time you fly...
by 53199432＠hotmail.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

To respond to this message, DO NOT HIT REPLY! (nothing will happen) Rather, use the link at the end of the message. *********************************************************** <HTML><PRE>UPGRADES to first class (domestic and international), the latest 'Two-for Ones', analysis of the many frequent flyer perks, double and triple miles, comparisons of premium class amenities and unpublicized bank card perks - sound interesting? Read on!!! You deserve the best first and business class comfort the airlines have to offer and these days domestic and international airlines are offering the most easily attainable upgrades in air travel history, many of them either without charge or even a membership in their frequent flier programs! Every issue of The Front Row Advisor bimonthly newsletter compiles and packs no-nonsense, insider air travel tips, disclosing the little-known first class promotions for all passengers and lots more; all presented in a well-organized, concise yet thorough, easily readable format. Our current issue is up to 20 pages with over 70 articles dedicated to FIRST CLASS AIR TRAVEL ONLY, NO ADVERTISING!!! The Front Row Advisor is the only thorough industry resource of low cost and no cost upgrades blended with timely, unbiased reporting from worldwide sources covering all the airlines, not just a few. Like to read more? We'd like to send you a FREE "Sneak Preview" issue! *************** CLICK HERE TO REQUEST A FREE "SNEAK PREVIEW" *************** </PRE></HTML> end END

1 0

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >On 2 Oct 1997 01:29:33 +0200, in list.cypherpunks you wrote: >>Cynthia Brown wrote: >>>On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote: >>>> This sucks. >>> >>>I agree wholeheartedly. >> >>>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the >>>"bad guys", but with better social programs such as universal health >>>care, and improved day care so single parents can show their kids >>>what a productive lifestyle looks like. >> >>Of course you agree wholeheartedly, you are an exploiter. It is >>wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself. > >Can you explain who exactly exploits who here? How about our friend J.F. Avon? He has the misfortune to share citizenship with Ms. Brown. Thus, while he may be minding his own business, doing nobody any harm, and pursuing happiness, should he decline to spend thousands of hours of his life working to pay money into Ms. Brown's socialist schemes, armed men will come to his house, put him in a cage, and leave him there for years. That's not a very friendly way to treat a neighbor, is it? In the United States, many thousands of people correctly recognize this situation. Many thousands of people are gun owners. Many thousands of people are not only gun owners, but combat veterans. The logical outcome would be great violence directed towards the government. Yet, this has not happened (recently ;-). Why? Certainly if the sums at stake were involved between governments, there would be fodder for many wars. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians, even armed civilians with combat experience, are so overwhelmingly peace loving that they will bend very far backwards to avoid trouble, even if it means thousands of hours of work. Can the same be said of career military or government people? >PS. What's the point in posting anonymous when you have this sig? > >>Editor in Chief >>Smile Magazine >>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html >>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html Tools which are not used are not improved. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDPgFZaWtjSmRH/5AQEQ8wf+PwFFagIxuwKkoR5rUAxnseSP8DzrRsrw tQD5gCZ0t1JTBdXUinhZzr2NsyKDtGoPcauDtrxqWyMdAem5ZCf2v6D8Cgm34n3Q bkmvSJbo2bSuD9ggzboENp6rhvsbJ7THf7I4eMHRIUrnPgnQbaWTOXKqBPtG5w+W qPrgHAb7s6oaB8aRqX0sPByWKqbd853RLjsy62Tl3oMc7hp70TAKwXCtXKQTUhL+ CeNBpNFvnN1nR1L3AqL5aji0/BaN+7foptPRDH3eZfUwLx547+1R+DdLKAb7u5tL RJaza5h0O3Zkg+ImlqR2cKe5awxwB6NNkm2oR1GD1p0f80+mGUHtcQ== =C9wS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate: >For the sender to chain from remailer to remailer to destination the >destination has to be in the header info somewhere. Now in the most secure >system each packet header will only contain the address of the next hop. When >the next site gets it the packet contents are de-crypted (otherwise reading >the chaining info is trivial) and the contents are uncovered to reveal another >packet with the next hop header and another encrypted block. And on and on >we go. > ><Question: Are there any remailer sets that impliment the encrypted nested > packet system?> Jim Choate has been amazingly clueless throughout this discussion, but this takes the cake. Does he really not know about encrypted nested chaining? My God! Of course remailers work this way, Jim. They've worked this way practically from the beginning. All remailers work this way. The mixmaster remailers are built around this idea, making each packet a constant size and adding dummy packets as new ones are stripped off, so outgoing messages look just like incoming ones. How can you be arguing about remailers when you know so little about how they work? ><speculation: an encrypted chain could be made stronger if the next > hop header depended on which key was used to decode it. > In other words, remailer A's key will produce one next hop > address while remailer B's key will send it elsewhere. This > is a subset of the different plaintext - same cyphertext > problem - a hard problem as I understand it. Find two > distinct texts that encrypt with different keys to the > same cyphertext> That won't help. There would be no point in doing this. I'd ask you to explain, but that would just prolong the agony.

1 0

Re: Stronghold
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation. It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its products were weak. The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a terrible mistake. The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified. At the same time, it is dishonest to say that its products have backdoors or are weak. There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. It may stretch the intellects of some cypherpunks beyond the breaking point to hold these two views about matters at the same time. In the black and white world where some cypherpunks live, a company which tries to prevent criticism is evil, hence it must be fraudulent as well. More mature list readers will recognize that a company or a person can be wrong in some actions while being right in other ways. The burden of proof in claiming that there is a weakness in someone's security product is on those making the claim. Compare the unfounded statements by Vulis with the carefully documented breaks of weak software by Ian Goldberg, David Wagner, John Kelsey, and Bruce Schneier. What if Goldberg and Wagner had claimed that Netscape's RNG seeding was weak, without providing any more evidence than that claim? What if Schneier et al had broken cellular phone encryption without backing it up? They would have been justifiably ignored. If anyone really does believe that C2Net's products have backdoors or weaknesses, why don't they present them? Either they want people to keep using C2Net's supposedly broken products, which reflects badly on them, or they want people to stop but they are unable to present any evidence of these purported weaknesses. When Vulis or anyone else claims Stronghold is broken, ask him why he is presenting his claims in a form which will cause people to keep using this "broken" software. Does he want people to have weak encryption? Is he in favor of backdoors? If not, he would surely present evidence of the weaknesses, if there is any. Make Vulis explain his motivations when he makes these claims.

6 7