December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell? (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:05:06 -0700 > From: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Subject: Re: A Medal -- Or A Prison Cell? > Also, how did Gates and his sons know the car was in fact the suspect's car? > > If it turns out that the Gates family merely set up their own roadblock > and tried to stop a car matching the general description (e.g., "a late > model white Ford sedan," which might well be the case for a police chase), > then they were truly reckless. > > As they weren't cops and the vehicles weren't police cars, why should a > driver be fool enough to stop for some rednecks blocking the road? > > (If this example is not clear, ask yourself if you would stop your car for > some blacks in Miami who blocked the road with their vehicles....) > > This is precisely why we don't want helpful do-gooders setting up their own > road blocks and firing shots at cars that don't stop. Since crypto-anarchy & free-market economic anarchy both do away with centralized authorities isn't this sort of behaviour what is *expected* of members of the community under these systems? Doesn't the fact that there is a clear and present danger to both person and community justify these sorts of actions? ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | | We built your fort. We will not have it used against us. | | | | John Wayne - Allegheny Uprising | | | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Anonymous Thread
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Charlie Comsec wrote: >Monty Cantsin wrote: >> Something that I have found irritating about the posts by >> non-persistent identities is that it isn't possible to support a >> meaningful discussion as previous statements can always be >> repudiated, or maybe even weren't made by the particular poster. I >> compared this to sound bites. > >How is that fundamentally different from non-anonymous posts, though? >You can always disavow (or attempt to) a previous post by claiming it >was forged, that someone stole your password, hacked your account, or >posted it when you accidentally left your terminal logged on while >you were at lunch. All true. But, in the case of the anonymous post there has usually been no indication other than writing style and topic that suggests the poster is using the context of previous anonymous posts. There's no particular reason to think the second post has anything to do with the first. This means that the ideas cannot be developed to any great depth or detail. I would prefer to see anonymous posters include the messages which supply context or just give the message IDs. >In addition, there's nothing to stop someone from obtaining multiple e-mail >accounts. So why should ten anonymous posts be an more irritating than >ten posts from hotmail.com, juno.com, etc. accounts? They could be from ten >different people, just one, or any number in between. Actually, it's the context and the complexity of the text that interests me. If ten different people play the role of anonymous in one thread, each accepting the context of the previous posters, there is no reason why that isn't just as interesting as if it were one poster. >> On second thought, however, there is an easy way to solve this. If >> the anonymous poster accepts the context of previous messages, the >> discussion can continue. There's no reason why the person behind the >> virtual thread has to be the same, but the context itself is important >> if we want to have interesting discussions. > >Agreed. It's the ideas that are important, not the identity of the person[a] >expressing them. The only exception I can think of is if the person >expressing the ideas is asking that they be accepted because of some unique >qualification or expertise he claims to possess. And even then it never hurts to think carefully about why they should be trusted, how it is that they know what they claim to know, and if there are any ways to verify their claims. >> So, if you don't want to sign your messages, just acknowledge the >> message ID of the relevant previous messages whose context you wish to >> use. > >Unless that's coupled with a PGP signature, there's nothing to keep one >anonymous person from impersonating another and agreeing to something. >For example, if "A" is debating "B", there's nothing to stop "B" from >posting as "C", claiming to be an anonymous KKK, NAMBLA, etc. member, >then posting again, impersonating "A", and pretending to agree with "C" >(by, as you say, "acknowledging C's message id"). That's okay, though, because you deal with each post on its own merits one at a time. If person "C" says "This posts uses the remarks by the anonymous poster in posts 1, 2, 3,.. as context" then you can say, "You now say X, but before you said Y, and that's a contradiction." That person (or even another person) can come back and say something genuinely interesting like "It seems like a contradiction, but in fact it isn't for such-and-such a reason." In practice the way people have been doing this is just by signing their posts "TruthMonger" or something. But, message IDs give you more control over the accepted context. >Nor is it much better if "A", "B", and "C" are non-anonymous. "B" can open >a throwaway account as "C", and then forge a follow-up from "A". Unless >it's done among a group of people skilled at interpreting headers, it may >well succeed, or at least arouse a lot of F.U.D. about "A". Sabotaging a non-persistent identity through a remailer is effortless. Forging takes a little more effort. But, yes, I would like to see more people signing their messages. It would reduce some problems. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm Subject: Re: Anonymous Thread To: cypherpunks(a)algebra.com 25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No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Mail Your Message to Millions
by KPeters8765＠mailexcite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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One for the Good Guys
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Well McAffe has reluctantly pulled out of KRAP. http://www.pgp.com/newsroom/na-kra.cgi - From the wording of the press release they still are unwilling to admit the error of their ways but at least they have realized the fallout from being associated with such an orginization. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a-sha1 Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBNIor7o9Co1n+aLhhAQL5lAP+KcogSdFYFLqczIOAiAIaXM0xhPz488VP 9/M2i3JrYq4kxg2gl4TKCIineHewGzKuEutA4xhiP5ITIlRIQ3HWPldURpi1j8RR Qil7AczrynhAvR3SY4/kyWxkLtczLlD+DedXciamAxmvD0jp0QSkez5RqzuEVCMg nJgWK1RzXmY= =MjpK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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16 Million! Just Released!
by rapnet＠ix.netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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They also had many program "generated" email addresses like Compuserve, MCI, ANON's, etc. This causes a tremendous amount of undeliverables, and for those that use Stealth programs, clogs up servers quickly with trash, etc. We then ran a program that contained 150+ keywords to remove addresses with vulgarity, profanity, sex-related names, postmaster, webmaster, flamer, abuse, spam, etc., etc. Also eliminated all .edu, .mil, .org, .gov, etc. After that list was run against the remaining list, it reduced it down to near 16 million addresses! So, you see, our list will save people hundreds of dollars buying all others that are out there on CD and otherwise. Using ours will be like using the 100+ million that we started with, but a lot less money and alot less time!! We also purchased Cyber-Promos ($995.00) CD. We received it just prior to finishing production work on the new CD. We had our people take a random sample of 300,000 addresses from the touted 2.9 that they advertised. 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New key
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Some readers have suggested that my El Gamal key values were not chosen correctly. My previous key used a random large prime, but Schneier suggests choosing one with a guaranteed large prime factor ("Applied Cryptography", section 11.6). To correct that I offer a new El Gamal key which I will use for signing: p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g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y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his prime value has been chosen so that (p-1)/2 will also be prime. I will continue to use Cantsin Protocol No. 2 as before. It's good to see that others are beginning to develop tools to use this protocol. Suggestions for improvements continue to be welcomed. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm Subject: New key To: cypherpunks(a)algebra.com 25BA1A9F5B9010DD8C752EDE887E9AF3 [Cantsin Protocol No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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Since crypto-anarchy & free-market economic anarchy both do away with > centralized authorities isn't this sort of behaviour what is *expected* of > members of the community under these systems? Doesn't the fact that there is > a clear and present danger to both person and community justify these sorts > of actions? > The concept of "Free-Market-Crypto-Anarchy" doesn't jibe with the "Lynch-Mob Democracy" mentality exhibited by Gates. One of the fundamental principles of anarchy is a willingness to let others hash out their own problems, i.e. I will ignore him unless his actions impact or affect me personally/financially. It is not as if the Gates were going to be affected by the "suspects"...they had to go out of their way to interfere with someone else's pursuit of happiness. That is clearly unacceptable. The last thing we need is a deputized citizenry...talk about a police state. (I guess that would be the ultimate form of the "Policeman Inside")

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XXX LIVE SEX
by rozaa＠oulu.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Singapore
by Secret Squirrel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Mr. Frissell asserts that Germany lacks rights >such as freedom of speech and >association. >This is not true. >The German Basic Law provides for everyone the right to freedom of speech, >religion and association. >However, Germany prohibits hate speech i.e. National Socialism and >incitement to racial, religious and national hatred. >The reason for this exception is the German history. And thus there is no true freedom of speech and such in Germany. I can either say "Fuck the Jews" or I can't. I can either say "Bill Gates can blow me" or I can't. I can either post naked pictures of myself or I can't. (And yes, this means that there is no true freedom of speech and such in the United States either.) Nice try.

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No Subject
by Secret Squirrel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. >Tim Mayo's abysmal grammar, atrocious spelling and >feeble responses clearly identify him as a product of >the American education system. > _ > / ' > | > /><oo><\ Tim Mayo > //[ `' ]\\

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