December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199706041340.IAA01267(a)einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/04/97 at 08:40 AM, Jim Choate <ravage(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said: >Yes, and your point? It can't be that a specific backbone cable between >two cities owned by the government is equivalent to the Internet in toto, >even conceptualy. Because it is clear that such a construct is equivalent >to the publicly funded highway running between the same cities, and you >most definitely CAN picket on a highway easment legaly. I have seen farm >workers in Texas do it my entire life. The Info-Highway comparison goes a >LOT farther than most people seem to have taken it. I personaly, don't >think we should go there in the case of communications technology. I think that your analogy is slightly flawed. While the farmers have a right to protest on the side of the road they do not have a right to interfere with the travelers on the road. There is no real way you could picket on the "Info highway" as you have no right to interfere with the packets traveling on the highway. You can stand of to the side if you want but somehow I don't think that the packets will be watching. :) - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5WEDo9Co1n+aLhhAQHT9gQAiqRoXBaHX6AqKhZD/xXOBy2LAkRv7cAx j0QCvM0LCHK/MYvlwEZsNbraiYDgii+ZBbI2M7cVZkdtb0H5I+TVZE5pwyXEtbub cTA1kMW35QIQKzS1tvG/Xorej8wAjOU6c/wKEV3JmhpPcQqIfz+5XHKst3vJB5Pr vNy0jXsi9m4= =0Zb4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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The New War
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"The New War" is Senator John Kerry's (Dem, MA) new book which examines global enemies of law and order. He cites the use of high-tech weapons, off-shore banks, and the Internet, featuring encryption, by rogue nations and organized criminals who are hiring the best and brightest lawyers, programmers, cryptographers and ex-spooks who once looked to the USG for secure careers, and who also pay top dollar for premium products and skills once affordable only by the military. He wonders how governments can compete with these new cash-flush criminals. The answer: new laws and new global arrangements. His view on global crypto is almost identical to that of Senator Kerrey (Dem, KA), Professor Denning and others who appear to be working in concert with the administration to advance global GAK, while admitting that some harm to privacy may be necessary. All nations must act in concert, Kerry says, to prevent the spread of dangerous technology. For a similar view, see Denning's synopsis of a paper on criminal use of encryption and developing technology to be published shortly: http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/oc-abs.html We've also heard from BXA that new regulations for the Commerce Control List and EAR to bring them into accord with the Wassenaar Arrangement will be out in "a month or two." This will probably be coordinated with the issuance of similar regulations by the 33 signators of the regime. It might portend the imposition of a global GAK regime that Kerry, et al, suggest is a primary weapon in The New War.

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Re: McVeigh
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199706042335.TAA16934(a)muesli.ai.mit.edu>, on 06/04/97 at 07:35 PM, Hallam-Baker <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> said: >Since its clear that the McVeigh appologists are simply repeating >arguments from alt.conspiracy I don't think theres much point continuing >the thread. >There is absolutely nothing that anyone did that justified McVeigh's >murder of the kids in the daycare center or anyone else. Frissel, Gieger >and co are simply trying to distract attention from that fact. No not at all Phil, while I can't speak for anyone else on the list I myself am try to bring to attention that no one cared about the children at Waco that were burned alive at the hands of the BATF. The general opinion was that those children shouldn't have been there and it was the fault of the Branch Dividians that the BATF murdered them. Now the same thing happens to some Federal Employes and now we hear the cries, and wails, "oh the humanity", "the children the children". Where was the outrage and demands for justice for the children of Waco. They were just an "evil cult" their children deserved to burn. I have heard this logic whispered by more than 1 Federal pig. I for one am sick and tired of hearing these two faced bastards wine and cry when it happens to them by cheer when it happen to someone else. >Hell, if we were to take them seriously they would have to all be FBI >agents attempting to entrap the unwary... > Phill >PS: Could the FBI agent monitoring the list tell us where to send in >evidence in connection with the Bell case? Don't worry Phil they know what a good little sheep you are and are confidant that you will do your duty when it comes time to fill the ovens. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5YfCo9Co1n+aLhhAQHLfwQAgzs1PcCrLXW/apUy6mt1Pt06owV3eT7/ UHjPWsr1IRrDsv/yQmXcZm7ilCAOyq/WZvgnO8sFGqKXb5QAeldIEgwmENKHEPtv UchPpLAQCrYxWpciRfc5DwXL+fnQDUFvooXTOmZazP0qsZ/OmrjmkDPckXmUAcxf DwaeQrMxacM= =x5R/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM: Admin reques
by Igor Chudov ＠ home 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks(a)algebra.com ----- >From owner-cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM Wed Jun 4 16:52:19 1997 From: owner-cypherpunks(a)algebra.com Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706042152.RAA01373(a)www.video-collage.com> To: owner-cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM: Admin request of type /\bsub-scribe\b/i at line 7 >From cpunks Wed Jun 4 17:51:59 1997 Received: from sirius.infonex.com (sirius.infonex.com [206.170.114.2]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01319 for <cypherpunks(a)algebra.com>; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from cpunks@localhost) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA09047; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rigel.cyberpass.net (root(a)rigel.infonex.com [206.170.114.3]) by sirius.infonex.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09040 for <cpunks(a)sirius.infonex.com>; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by rigel.cyberpass.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA13609 for <cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net>; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA25146 for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pathfinder.com (relay2.pathfinder.com [204.71.242.22]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25141 for <cypherpunks(a)toad.com>; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cp.pathfinder.com by pathfinder.com (8.7.3/SMI-SVR4) id RAA15204; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by cp.pathfinder.com (SMI-8.6) id RAA03951; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:43:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:42:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)pathfinder.com> Reply-To: declan(a)well.com To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Anonymity should be banned for speakers and vendors Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970604174023.29555R-100000(a)cp.pathfinder.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk [Ray, a recent DC law school grad and anti-spam activist, is a good guy but is IMHO sadly mistaken here. Thought this might be interesting. --Declan] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- X-FC-URL: Fight-Censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fc/ X-FC-URL: To join send "sub-scribe" to fight-censorship-request(a)vorlon.mit.edu Date: Wed, 4 Jun 97 17:25:36 -0400 From: Ray Everett-Church <ray(a)everett.org> Sender: owner-fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu To: sameer <sameer(a)c2.net>, tbetz(a)pobox.com Cc: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: Spam costs and questions On 6/4/97 4:52 PM, sameer (sameer(a)c2.net) wrote: >> If Wallace were up against criminal and civil penalties if he continued to >> hide his customers' real identities, he'd give them up in a hot second. Of >> course, as soon as there was a chance of that happening, he'd get out of the >> business entirely. > > So how do criminal and civial penalties for not revealing a >customer's name protect anonymity on the internet? > Anonymity on the internet must be preserved. If you could come >up with a way to make spam illegal and preserve anonymity, I would be >very glad. Until then, I will have to oppose making spam illegal. As stated before, I have heard no convincing argument that it is in the consumers best interest to have an anonymous *vendor*. Sure it's vital that *consumers* be allowed to remain anonymous, but if you're selling a product or service, there's no legitimate reason why a business needs to remain anonymous given issues of warranties, product liability, sales taxes, etc. And in the case above, since the remailer in question is simply acting as an agent for the business, there's no question of legitimate anonymity implicated. Indeed, perpetuating anonymity for the business often times facilitates activites that constitute a breach of contract and sometimes even fraud. The whole reason to use a pro-spam anon remailer is so that you can violate your ISP usage agreement without being traceable or accountable. And if you've entered into that contractual relationship with the ISP with the *intent* to breach that contract, it's fraud. Anonymity for consumers, Yes! Anonymity for vendors, NO! -Ray <everett(a)cauce.org> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ray Everett-Church, Esq. <ray(a)everett.org> www.everett.org/~everett This mail isn't legal advice. Opinion(RE-C) != Opinion(clients(RE-C)) (C)1997 Ray Everett-Church ** Help outlaw "spam"=> http://www.cauce.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks(a)algebra.com -----

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Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > From: "Peter Trei" <trei(a)process.com> > Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:33:54 -6 > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd) > [Jim wants to be able to 'cyber-picket' - force people to read his > opinions before they can browse sites he does not like. He is > attempting to claim that the net backbones corrospond to public > spaces, where his local government permits him to picket.] Quit taking the drugs they are affecting your attention span. You should also quit trying to divine persons motivation, you are terrible at it. > 'Publically funded network backbones'? Can you name one (in the US)? Actualy I have already named two. > None of which have the slightest relevance - Internet II is a > proposed (and still vaporware) project for an academic-research-only > network Actualy the Internet II documents that I have seen have specificaly mentioned letting students at public schools use them as well as people doing research both private and publicly funded. I understand that it should start to take physical shape just after the turn of the century. The High Speed Supercomputer network is also going to be available for use within just a couple years as well. - it's future existence has no impact on those of us using > the private backbone system of today. You have obviously missed the entire point, today is not the issue. It is tomorrow that we should be looking at and the clear indications that Uncle Sam puts out about funding/supporting future expansion. The federal government can't afford to keep its fingers out of the pie. > Question: if you get the ability to put up your 'cyber-picket' frame, > how about cyber-counter-pickets? Cant the picketee put a page in > front of yours? Who gets priority? Where does it stop? Yes. Yes. First come first served. When the funds run out. > Jim, your idea is roadkill on that horribly imprecise analogy, > the 'information superhighway' (spit). It can't be resuscitated > by asking for 'information super-sidewalks' or claiming the existance > of 'information super-public-spaces'. The underlying metaphor is > fatally flawed. In your opinion, which so far has been nothing but inuendo, ad hominim arguments, and pure opinion. How about some reasoning to go along with it? _______________________________________________________________________ | | | Speak the truth, but leave immediately after. | | | | Slovenian Proverb | | | | Jim Choate ravage(a)ssz.com | | The Armadillo Group www.ssz.com | | Austin, Texas, USA 512-451-7087 | |_______________________________________________________________________|

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RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I was having dinner with Don Haines, a friend of mine who's a legislative counsel with the national ACLU, when the McVeigh verdict came down. A Canadian prosecutor who was having dinner with us said: "So McVeigh did it after all." Don replied: "No. He was found guilty of the crime." There is a difference. -Declan On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Chris DiBona wrote: > <rant> > > Okay folks...what the hell is wrong with you? First off, this whole McVeigh > Crap is a bit off topic..but we all know this. The amazing thing about the > string of posts has been that people have forgotten that He has been found > guilty of murdering quite a few people. Guilty, Guilty, Guilty. Jury of > his peers, dare I say, people like us all. Randomly selected. This is how > our system works. > > Yes there are flaws in the system. > > Yes the US govt. has it's problems in the past, present and future. > > Yes people have died because schnooks in DC have had thier heads up thier > ass. Or not. > > So whether or not you belive he did it.....how can anyone be _for_ what > _happened_. People died senselessly, I can't believe that anyone (in this > case Duncan Frissell frissell(a)panix.com, lets give credit where it is due) > can be so callous and , frankly, sick , to say : > > <> > As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children over > to > government employees or contractors do not place too high a value on those > children. > <> > > Are you serious? You should be ashamed that you think this way. Do you > really > think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who > should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" > is > on the same plane. > > To all the people who defend blowing shit and people up to get thier point > across.... > > Okay..so the IRA does it, and HAMMAS does it, and the CIA does it. So does > the > PLFP the FARC and a zillion other terrorist groups. And it appears McVeigh > did it. > But that doesn't make blowing up children in freakin' day care all right. > Do you > understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any > reason. > Bad. Duncan...looking over your past posts.. .I've got to wonder if you > were on acid > when you wrote this, many of your posts were fairly cozigent. But this? Do > you have > children? Any cousins who are children? A nephew or neice? Do these > children > who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to > scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast > radius or > shooting range of : > > A government office. > A large corporations headquarters. > A law firm. > A post office. > A town square. > A restaurant. > A bank. > Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy. > Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy. > Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. > > If they even could, I'm someone somewhere will find a way to fuck up that > safe place. > > You get the point, I could go on....but I won't. Perhaps you should think > and read > over your posts before you post again. The only good thing (and I mean > ONLY) to > come out of the whole Mcveigh thing being discussed here on cypherpunks, is > that it has allowed me to add to my killfiles people who have for some > reason, > had a prefrontal. > > To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also > mention it > is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults. > > Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said : > > For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs. > > Chris DiBona > > </rant> > >

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Re: McVeigh
by Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Geiger writes: >That's right Phil you can sleep better now that all the evil millitia have >been distroyed. I'm sure you woun't mind when the Constitution is gone >too. Nothing to worry about after all you have Bill Clinton and his >buddies to make sure your safe. They said they would and they would never >lie. Well I supose there is the possibility your lot might see sense and ask to be readmitted to the British Empire but its by no means clear you would be re-admitted. And there would have to be reparitions for all that confiscated British property being used without compensation... >I'm sure if you were in Germany during the 30's that you would have >thought the "Jewish Solution" was a good thing after all the government >said it was. McVeigh is the racist extreemist who has committed mass murder in this case, not the government. While I would welcome it if you joined me in condeming US sponsored terorism during the cold war I don't think you are willing to do so. >That's ok Phil 1 little white boy will fry in the electric chair. But just >maybe your children will never have to know what it's like to live under a >Hitler or a Stalin because there are some in this country who are willing >to standup to the STATEST in DC who if given the chance will enslave us >all. But this threat does not come from the state, it comes from those like McVeigh who will murder children to further their agenda. The militias have not rejected the concept of a state, far from it they claim ownership of it, they claim that they have the right to dispense law, they claim the right to murder those who disagree with them. Their ideology is at root that of Musollini's fascists. It is surprising to find that you are so willing to be an open appologist for McVeigh's crime but in answer to your point: No children are going to grow up in a better world because of McVeigh or any of his followers, many will not grow up at all because he murdered them. Phill

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Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > From: frissell(a)panix.com > Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 22:39:56 -0400 > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd) > The Net is technically and legally a private value-added network. The last > bit of the then existing backbone was privatized the weekend following the OKC > bombing in April 1995. (No relation) Yes, and there is not one law on the books preventing the government from putting in their own backbones in the future, which is exactly what they are planning on doing. Which is what I am talking about. This temporal displacement argument is a straw man. _______________________________________________________________________ | | | Speak the truth, but leave immediately after. | | | | Slovenian Proverb | | | | Jim Choate ravage(a)ssz.com | | The Armadillo Group www.ssz.com | | Austin, Texas, USA 512-451-7087 | |_______________________________________________________________________|

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No Subject
by Mix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

May Timothy C. Mayo's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life. o o /< >\ Timothy C. Mayo \\\_______/// // \\

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Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii(a)amaranth.com> > Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 21:38:40 -0500 > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd) > >Correct and using my model would in no way interfere with a users use of > >the network. It would not add excessive delay or other impedemants. It > >would be a one time event that occured when the site was initialy > >accessed. Much like having to go past the picketers on the side of the > >road at least once. > > I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If I am stoped even once that > is one time too many. In the real world if a group of picketers try to > impead my entrance to a store parking lot the growl of a 427 does alot to > convince them of the errors of their ways. :) Whew, talk about fixated. NOBODY is talking about stopping anything but you, THAT would be unconstitutional. I am NOT saying that such a situation would prevent you from reaching your destination (ie the store) but it would require you to pass through the picket line (ie get a single page as your first responce to your request) and be exposed however briefly to their speech. > Yes and it is the participants who are sending the packets. If I am > sending packets between point A & B you have no right to interfere with > those transmisions. You are right, I WOULD have a right to interfere with their reception which is after all what I am talking about. I am in no way discussing slowing or otherwise altering the request from the user, I am specificaly talking about adding a single page to the servers output. Straw man. > You donot have the right to re-route them or substute > them for others. If you have somthing to say put up a web page and if I am > interested I'll stop by and take a look. You don't have the right to force > me to look. To do so would be a serious perversion of the 1st Amendment. Absolutely, and none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the issue at hand. Another straw man. If you are using a publicly funded thoroughfare I CAN consitutionaly FORCE you to see my message if YOU insist on going to that particular store. It isn't the user who is being picketed, it is the server. You as a user of the system have nothing to say about it, unless as alluded by another cpunk you want to picket the picketers (which is completely legal and happens quite often). _______________________________________________________________________ | | | Speak the truth, but leave immediately after. | | | | Slovenian Proverb | | | | Jim Choate ravage(a)ssz.com | | The Armadillo Group www.ssz.com | | Austin, Texas, USA 512-451-7087 | |_______________________________________________________________________|

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