December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Intel to rule the basic crypto engine market?
by stewarts＠ix.netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:27 PM 8/29/96 -0800, jim bell <jimbell(a)pacifier.com> wrote: >The one kind of standardization in the crypto market that we truly need, >NOW, is a standard format/protocol so that crypto telephones from all >manufacturers can talk to each other. The last thing we need is a >tower-of-Babel situation, which would be even worse than the VHS/Beta wars >of 20-10 years ago. I think it'll be a while before we're at that point - there's too much experimenting to do, and too many different options of crypto and voice compression that are useful in different situations. Simple issues like Internet vs. modem vs. frame relay vs. cellphone make a radical difference in performance. A standardized _option_negotiation_ method would be valuable; that would at least let systems figure out if they can talk as well as exchanging keys. You can use PGPtalk if you want a single standard program that will often work - for now the best approach for non-hardware-based systems is probably to have several popular encrypted phone programs, and negotiate by voice which ones to use :-) The non-crypto-internet-phone business has been in a similar bind, but Intel's announcement that H.323 shall be the One True Standard may get enough support to cut through that. Is there some hook in their system that could make it easy to add encryption, or do we need to design Internet-Crypto-Phones that recycle the H.323 from Intel but add several layers of wrapper around them? (ITU standards being what they are, I haven't yet found an on-line source of the document, and the ITU itself has a badly organized web site that lets you order paper copies of the documents by mailing paper Swiss Francs to them, which is annoying. (It could at least do SSL web forms and Visa cards or something.) And Intel's free reference implementation needs Win95, which I'm not running.) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # <A HREF="http://idiom.com/~wcs"> Reassign Authority!

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Re: Encryption (shuffling proposal)
by peter.allan＠aeat.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> DALE THORN ON CRYPTOGRAPHY: (edited for brevity) > It appears to me that PGP encryption et al is really 1940's technology, > albeit fancied up by 1990's computers. Why use keys and cyphers when > all you should have to do is maximize the randomization of bits in a > script? > Algorithm: Select bit-groups of random length from the file until the file is > completely processed. Shuffle the bits in each group randomly and > save each group back to the file. Repeat if needed using different > key-strings for each successive encryption, for increased security. > "Due to the nature of compounded bit-shuffling, no algorithm ever developed > or proposed could 'crack' multi-pass encoding with a single decryption pass. You are producing a permutation table. Repeat passes just get you a new table, no different in principle. > [Time calc for 12kb file....] > "One of the difficulties in breaking this type of encryption (other than the > numerical time factors) is the fact that you might have to deal with several > unknown random number generators from different compiled executable programs. > Add to this another factor, the 'Intelligent User' who adds their own tweaks > to the source code. The tweak is added, the program is compiled, the file(s) > are encrypted, and then the modified source code is destroyed along with the > executable file. But the internet worm of 1988 was captured, decompiled and analysed in days. Self-modifying viruses get analysed (by single stepping). Your programs will go the same way as soon as there is (financial ?) motivation. So the users have to know the algorithms, including "tweaks" in order to communicate ? Not the most convenient key. > EXAMPLE when_it_rains_it's_a_bath (least significant bit at left): > 11101110000101101010011001110110111110101001011000 > 10111011111010010011101000011010010110011101101100 > 11101111101010010110001011101110010011001110111110 > 10100001101111101001000110100001100010111000010110 becomes > 01011100010110101100011110101000011101101111101011 > 00101101100011111010010101111001011001000100000101 > 00111101010101011011000011101111001111110101001011 > 11101000001101101110101011000100111111000010111001 >From this known plaintext-cyphertext pair the enemy can list all the possible sources and destinations of each bit. EG first bit of plaintext (position 0, value 1) can move to 1,3,4,5,....,199 second bit of plaintext (position 1, value 1) can move to 1,3,4,5,....,199 Given a number of pairs of the same length, produced with the same key details each of these lists of possibilities shrinks by around half. Your 12kb file is well on the way to being cracked after 4+10+3=17 pairs are discovered. If the intention is never to reuse keys, then this scheme gets you nothing you couldn't have with a normal stream cipher. And they, don't reveal the number of 1-bits and 0-bits in the message. Different messages will be recognisable different. A chosen plaintext attack (where these are possible) becomes a breeze. > b. Passwords/phrases, algorithms, code routines, and even whole programs > might change from step to step, thereby invalidating any 'single-pass' > decryption scheme that's likely to be proposed. How are the above remarks invalidated ? I don't want to stifle creativity. If you keep thinking you may come up with a good idea. But this isn't it. I encourage you to read about existing systems. There have been bright people before, and things are done (or not done) for a reason. -- Peter Allan peter.allan(a)aeat.co.uk

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Re: Encryption
by stewarts＠ix.netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:40 PM 8/30/96 +0200, Germano Caronni <caronni(a)tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote: >Dale Thorn wrote: >> Algorithm: Select bit-groups of random length from the file until the file is >> completely processed. Shuffle the bits in each group randomly and >> save each group back to the file. Repeat if needed using different >> key-strings for each successive encryption, for increased security. >Very nice. There are just two little issues: >a) How do you generate the random bytes? >b) How do you transmit them to the other side, without having a secure channel? I agree. This method can be looked at as two parts: 1) Generate a stream of random numbers 2) Use the stream to transform the plaintext into cyphertext by shuffling. Generating a stream of random numbers can be done by cryptographically strong methods, or by physical methods such as throwing dice or counting gamma rays, or by cryptographically weak methods such as using the RANDOM function provided by your BASIC compiler. If you're using strong crypto, the method is strong if the transform is strong. If you're using physical randomness, that's also true, and you'll definitely need to use agents with briefcases handcuffed to their arms to haul the randoms around, which doesn't gain you much operational security, since the random stream needs to be longer than the plaintext. If you're using weak crypto, we can use those fast computers you're so impressed with to try all 32767 or 2**32 random streams on your input to see what works - brute force isn't that hard when you've got a small keyspace, even if you don't take advantage of the special forms (e.g. there are good methods for reversing linear congruential multiplicative generators.) How long a stream of random numbers do you need to do the transform? And how secure _is_ the transform? For a simple XOR, you know that each bit in the stream will diddle one bit in the plaintext, so you're fine (as long as you only use the random stream once.) But for your shuffling method, you'd have to shuffle much longer to make sure that the "random" selection of bitgroups hits all the bits, and hits them often enough that adjacent bits will be separated. For instance, if your message is a 3000-word set of instructions to your fellow plotters, you need to be sure that the phrases "gunpowder", "Parliament", and "November 5th" get shredded, not merely moved to different places in the document. This takes much longer than deterministic methods, and risks not being as good. There are some advantages with the shuffling method - assuming you've cranked the system long enough to really shred everything, it's hard to take cyphertext and reconstruct plaintext, and brute force is a bit more work than with a deterministic method that uses one pass. But you can get that effect by using stronger methods, such as the des | tran | des | tran | des where "tran" is a simple key-or-input-driven shuffle that doesn't need to be totally strong. (Is Carl Ellison the person who proposed this? I've forgotten.) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # <A HREF="http://idiom.com/~wcs"> Reassign Authority!

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Helsingius shuts down anon.penet.fi server in Finland (fwd)
by Z.B. 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This just came over the fight-censorship list. --- Zach Babayco zachb(a)netcom.com <----- finger for PGP public key ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:11:56 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> To: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu Cc: azeem(a)dial.pipex.com, jseiger(a)cdt.org Subject: Helsingius shuts down anon.penet.fi server in Finland This is a sad day in the history of the Net. Hundreds of thousands of people had accounts on Julf's pseudonmyous server and many netizens relied on it daily to preserve their privacy online. (Unlike cypherpunk remailers, it's not truly anonymous since Julf keeps records of what anon id maps to what email address.) From Azeem's report and the press release below, Julf's move seems to be in response to a Finnish court's preliminary decision that the privacy remailers could be violated by court order -- something the Scientologists have been pushing. Still, I'd be surprised if Julf's decision wasn't prompted in part by the hideous London Observer article that falsely accused him of being a middleman in the distribution of child porn -- check out a scan of the Sunday cover at: http://scallywag.com/ -Declan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:11:51 +0100 From: Azeem Azhar <azeem(a)dial.pipex.com> To: azeem(a)ivision.co.uk Subject: [ALERT] Penet is dead Hello all, I just got off the phone with Johann Helsingius who runs the anon.penet.fi anonymous e-mail service. 1. He has decided to close the service. 2. This is not related to the article in The Observer. It is, in fact, due to a decision of a lower Finnish court on petition from the Church of Scientology. Penet went to court last week and made the decision today. The implication of the decision is that e-mail over the Internet is not protect by the usual Finnish privacy laws. 3. The server is currently down while Julf re-writes the software. Once it runs again, it will be phased out for private use, but groups such as the Samaritans and human rights agencies should be able to use it. 4. They are appealing against the decision. 5. Julf expects that revisions in Finnish law to provide a safe legal status for anonymous remailers will be in place at the earliest in Spring next year. 6. Once again: this is unrelated to The Observer's scandalous reporting. Your faithful furry friend, Azeem ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:15:41 +0100 From: Azeem Azhar <azeem(a)dial.pipex.com> To: azeem(a)ivision.co.uk Subject: [ALERT} Penet is dead (correction) Sorry . . . a slight error: > 2. This is not related to the article in The Observer. It is, in fact, > due to a decision of a lower Finnish court on petition from the Church > of Scientology. Penet went to court last week and made the decision > today. The implication of the decision is that e-mail over the Internet > is not protect by the usual Finnish privacy laws. The implication of the court's decision (rather than Penet's to shut the server) is that e-mail over the Internet is not protected by the usual Finnish privacy laws. Sorry! -- [Julf's press release. -Declan] PRESS RELEASE 30.8.1996 Johan Helsingius closes his Internet remailer Johan Helsingius from Helsinki has decided to close his Internet remailer. The so-called anonymous remailer is the most popular remailer in the world, with over half a million users. "I will close down the remailer for the time being because the legal issues governing the whole Internet in Finland are yet undefined. The legal protection of the users needs to be clarified. At the moment the privacy of Internet messages is judicially unclear." The idea of an anonymous remailer is to protect the confidentiality of itís usersí identity. The remailer itself does not store messages but serves as a channel for message transmission. The remailer forwards messages without the identity of the original sender. Finland is one of the leading countries in Internet usage. Therefore all decisions and changes made in Finland arouse wide international interest. "I have developed and maintained the remailer in my free time for over three years now. It has taken up a lot of time and energy. Internet has changed a lot in these three years - now there are dozens of remailers in the world, which offer similar services." "I have also personally been a target because of the remailer for three years. Unjustified accusations affect both my job and my private life" says Johan Helsingius. He surmises that the closing of the remailer will raise a lot of discussion among the Internet community. "These remailers have made it possible for people to discuss very sensitive matters, such as domestic violence, school bullying or human rights issues anonymously and confidentially on the Internet. To them the closing of the remailer is a serious problem", says Helsingius. Child porn claims proven false Last Sunday¥s issue of the English newspaper Observer claimed that the remailer has been used for transmitting child pornography pictures. The claims have been investigated by the Finnish police. Observer¥s claims have been found groundless. Police sergeant Kaj Malmberg from the Helsinki Police Crime Squad is specialized in investigating computer crimes. He confirms that already a year ago Johan Helsingius restricted the operations of his remailer so that it cannot transmit pictures. "The true amount of child pornography in Internet is difficult to assess, but one thing is clear: We have not found any cases where child porn pictures were transmitted from Finland", Kaj Malmberg says. Ground rules need to be clarified There are several large network projects going on in Finland at the moment, such as the TIVEKE project run by the Ministry of Communications and the Information Society Forum project run by the Ministry of Finance. Johan Helsingius is participating the work of these projects. Projects assess the political and social issues of networks and the impact of these issues in the long run. These projects also need the support of daily, practical work to help short-term decision-making. Johan Helsingius is now taking an initiative in the development of the daily network rules. He wants to set up a task force to discuss the practical problems related to ethical and civil rights issues in connection with the Internet. "I will try to set up a task force which will include Internet experts together with representatives of civic organizations and authorities. The task force could take a stand on issues such as the network¥s practical operation methods and the misuse of the network. I hope that the results of this task force will support the development of the network", he says. For further information, please contact Johan Helsingius Oy Penetic Ab tel. +358 0400 2605 e-mail: julf(a)penet.fi

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Re: PGP & Default
by apteryx＠super.zippo.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 01:13:23 -0400 (EDT), lcs Remailer Administrator <mix-admin(a)nym.alias.net> wrote: [snip] >to the file $HOME/.pgp/config.txt. (Or wherever the equivalent is >under DOS. Perhaps someone can tell me where the config.txt file >lives under DOS and I will add that to the help file.) It's in the same directory as PGP, which will be the directory referenced by the SET PGPPATH statement in the autoexec.bat file if PGP is installed and configured correctly. At least with version 2.6.2. You can use MyName="any string of characters that is specific enough to identify one and only one key". I have mine set as my name, so that no matter what e-mail address I use, PGP uses the right key. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMicvtN36bir1/qfZAQFnzgMAxTk55pldFWgysbjOj1Tqt/KAfB4Ty2WA EmTLRMziw8QglZSDzRxKcfvU3XjefNM7kA8YYPaKcgOlEhDiKB+Z9WDGMwwSJePk CFgTRPtuZS4kpjGsTZIvQN31ZqB5Ko0f =kSuW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Heaney finger snipe(a)starburst.cbl.cees.edu for public key PGP Fingerprint= BB D8 9B 07 51 87 05 AC 47 7B F2 4F A6 AB 1A CD ----------------------------------------------------------------- You keep using that word, I dunna think it means what you think it means.

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~~ Bankers' Secrets ~~
by ~~ SECRETS ~~ 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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anon.penet.fi closing down
by Jim Byrd 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This was just posted: --------- Path: szdc-e!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!news.Sta nford.EDU!not-for-mail From: rcgraves(a)ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.religion.scientology,alt.privacy.anon-server Subject: penet.fi closing down Followup-To: alt.privacy.anon-server Date: 30 Aug 1996 09:49:40 -0700 Organization: Unaffiliated Fans of Nizkor, http://www.nizkor.org/ Lines: 87 Sender: llurch(a)Networking.Stanford.EDU Distribution: inet Message-ID: <507634$kj8(a)Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu Xref: szdc-e comp.org.eff.talk:16082 alt.religion.scientology:115080 alt.privacy.anon-server:2691 Attributions deleted on request. -rich PRESS RELEASE 30.8.1996 Johan Helsingius closes his Internet remailer Johan Helsingius from Helsinki has decided to close his Internet remailer. The so-called anonymous remailer is the most popular remailer in the world, with over half a million users. "I will close down the remailer for the time being because the legal issues governing the whole Internet in Finland are yet undefined. The legal protection of the users needs to be clarified. At the moment the privacy of Internet messages is judicially unclear." The idea of an anonymous remailer is to protect the confidentiality of its users' identity. The remailer itself does not store messages but serves as a channel for message transmission. The remailer forwards messages without the identity of the original sender. Finland is one of the leading countries in Internet usage. Therefore all decisions and changes made in Finland arouse wide international interest. "I have developed and maintained the remailer in my free time for over three years now. It has taken up a lot of time and energy. Internet has changed a lot in these three years - now there are dozens of remailers in the world, which offer similar services." "I have also personally been a target because of the remailer for three years. Unjustified accusations affect both my job and my private life" says Johan Helsingius. He surmises that the closing of the remailer will raise a lot of discussion among the Internet community. "These remailers have made it possible for people to discuss very sensitive matters, such as domestic violence, school bullying or human rights issues anonymously and confidentially on the Internet. To them the closing of the remailer is a serious problem", says Helsingius. Child porn claims proven false Last SundayŽs issue of the English newspaper Observer claimed that the remailer has been used for transmitting child pornography pictures. The claims have been investigated by the Finnish police. ObserverŽs claims have been found groundless. Police sergeant Kaj Malmberg from the Helsinki Police Crime Squad is specialized in investigating computer crimes. He confirms that already a year ago Johan Helsingius restricted the operations of his remailer so that it cannot transmit pictures. "The true amount of child pornography in Internet is difficult to assess, but one thing is clear: We have not found any cases where child porn pictures were transmitted from Finland", Kaj Malmberg says. Ground rules need to be clarified There are several large network projects going on in Finland at the moment, such as the TIVEKE project run by the Ministry of Communications and the Information Society Forum project run by the Ministry of Finance. Johan Helsingius is participating the work of these projects. Projects assess the political and social issues of networks and the impact of these issues in the long run. These projects also need the support of daily, practical work to help short-term decision-making. Johan Helsingius is now taking an initiative in the development of the daily network rules. He wants to set up a task force to discuss the practical problems related to ethical and civil rights issues in connection with the Internet. "I will try to set up a task force which will include Internet experts together with representatives of civic organizations and authorities. The task force could take a stand on issues such as the networkŽs practical operation methods and the misuse of the network. I hope that the results of this task force will support the development of the network", he says. For further information, please contact Johan Helsingius Oy Penetic Ab tel. +358 0400 2605 e-mail: julf(a)penet.fi

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San Diego CPunk Physical meeting!!!!!
by Christian Claborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- <<<<< NOTE! I have a new address!!! >>>>>> Change in DATE. sorry ------> Sep 5, Next Thursday!!! San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium Thursday, Sep. 5, 1996. Invitation to all Cypherpunks to join the San Diego crowd at "The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop". We discuss cryptography and other related subjects, have the special cypherpunk dinner, and unwind after a long day at the grind stone. Don't forget to bring your public key fingerprint. If you can figure out how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool. If you want the suspicious crowd there to sign your key, bring two forms of ID. Hopefully Lance Cottrell will give us an update on Mixmaster and what's going on at San Diego's best ISP. You can also get the scoop on why I resigned from NCR. It wouldn't of course be because someone freaked out when I forwarded the cypherpunk e-mail titled "How to become in international Arms trafficker"... Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop 3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach. 488-9060 Time:1800 Their Directions: 8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit Take west mission bay drive Go right on Mission Blvd. On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd. It is located between roller coaster and garnett. It's kind of 40s looking building... funky looking (their description, not mine) They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer. See you there! New guy, bring your fingerprint. Drop me a note if you plan to attend... NOTE: My primary e-mail address has changed to use my own domain. You can reach me at "claborne(a)cyberthought.com". Permanently replace any other address that you may have for me. I am currently not subscribed to the CP list since my current internet connection is slow (I can't afford anything right now :) 2 -- C -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Personal Edition iQEVAgUBMic8AYP1MBWQ+9udAQFSDQf8CXxsoBlLZIpXORcT2pkRYO67eFgVQehU 9Mzc1uVyb9k8JKzID4zMEEuRiUF38GMaVC9PJdmSGObzulhpduNgRwu15bXDPK80 gf4El696ncHqRqPNBZw+6JXWuNbotryZUVVAr+98LgwViP4jm6/U8KCkWd5scjll gfxQi7vxXCAAz1lGf6N+NZhP54m37PbTIkyXu59M2Js85LlVLZ0nY+aSsebjVzXt ojCn6QQKnq4Zns9bxxuhm71AmyVhT09cKzgwR8xrnCPOXLAvtx6m7a0q1rBbqh+Y QiNT95YmJovOIgtUB+xCa706W1X4N1MqPD36n1S5lumhSrCiPBg9jg== =l4SF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ... __o .. -\<, Claborne(a)CYBERTHOUGHT.com ...(*)/(*)._ Providing thoughts on your computing problems. http://www.CYBERTHOUGHT.com/cyberthought/ PGP Pub Key fingerprint = 7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0 54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51 Avail on Pub Key server. PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Dreams. They are just a "screen saver" for the brain.

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Penet Bites the Dust
by mpd＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

An interesting Net tidbit. Note that the "International Conference on Child Sexual Exploitation" in Stolkholm which served as a platform for these accusations and various coordinated stories in numerous media outlets is simply a circus put on by ECPAT, a well-known pressure group whose propaganda is modeled after the now-defunct National Coalition on Pornography, and whose spurious and laughable claims about child pornography and vast pedophile conspiracies would fill volumes. The only odd thing here is that the mainstream press is presenting this gathering with a perfectly straight face, as if it were some sort of credible event, which of course it is not. ----- HELSINKI (Reuter) - A Finnish Internet specialist said on Friday he was closing his remailer, or anonymous forwarding system, after rejecting allegations it was being used as a conduit for child pornography. Johan Helsingius, whose remailer is one of the largest in the world with over half a million users, said in a statement he was closing down the system because the legal issues governing the Internet in Finland are unclear. ``The legal protection of users needs to be clarified. At the moment the privacy of Internet messages is judicially unclear,'' said Helsingius, who said he set up and ran the remailer in his free time partly as an initiative to help abused children. Internet remailers are computers which receive and forward messages with a pseudonym or anonymous source. There are about five large ones in the world, and they exist to enable anonymous discussion of sensitive subjects -- for instance by victims of child abuse, potential suicides or people in politically repressed societies. Helsingius, supported by Finnish police, earlier this week dismissed claims in Britain's Observer Sunday newspaper that his remailing system handled up to 90 percent of child pornography on the Internet. ``I have also personally been a target because of the remailer for three years,'' he said on Friday. ``Unjustified accusations affect both my job and my private life.'' The newspaper reported the charges, by a U.S. policeman and FBI adviser, as Belgian police were investigating horrific child sex crimes and ahead of an international conference in Stockholm on the commercial sexual exploitation of children. In Helsingius's statement, Helsinki police sergeant Kaj Malmberg was quoted as saying he had found no evidence of child porn being transmitted from Finland. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

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Re: MUD anyone?
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 4:27 PM 8/30/96, Jon Leonard wrote: >Tim May wrote: >> I second many of the comments about the difficulties in coding a reasonably >> plausible game or MUD for exploring list ideas. > >["Crypto Anarchy Game." value and difficulties stuff snipped] > >> Coding nearly any of the core cryptographic concepts for use in an online >> game, even without a real crypto core (e.g., using other trust mechanisms) >> is likely to be almost as big a job as actually coding the concepts for >> real-world use. Could be very educational, and a useful dry run for later >> real-world reification of concepts, but by no means easy. > >I don't think it's quite that hard, so I tried to implement asymetric key >cryptography: > >20 minutes, to write and debug: Well, cryptography (per se) is the most basic, and in some sense simplest, part of the whole thing: the "semantics" of crypto are well-understood (even if not to the snake oil salesmen and repeated inventors of one time pads). Consider that PGP was basically a realization (others existed, natch) of ideas that were almost 20 years old. Some much harder (to me) protocols: fair coin tosses, blinded coins, oblivious transfers, digital cash in all its many forms (and issues), DC-Nets, and so on. Sure, bits and pieces are codable--and have been--but a comprehensive package is tough to write. Wei Dai's and Matt Blaze's libraries are excellent, I hear, but are not targetted at creating these building blocks for crypto anarchy. And the social and organization assumptions coded into software is a major issue to think about. Some Scheme or C code doing part of these things will likely not be real useful. Your code is admirable. I did the same thing in Mathematica, a few years ago when I was still interested in the innards of RSA. (It took me longer than 20 minutes to write, though...but I also got to play around with big primes, the basic number theory stuff, etc. A useful learning experience.) But implementing more recent cryptographic building blocks seems more than an order of magnitude harder. (If you can implement a reasonably robust bank-digicash system in 10 x 20 minutes = 3.5 hours, I'll be impressed. Merely speccing what it should do and how it should behave in various situations would take far, far longer than this. Just my view. Maybe I'm wrong.) >It is a big project, but the big part is writing the MUD, not adding the >crypto-anarchy stuff to it. I'm writing a MUD anyway, and have been off >and on for over a year. Mark Grant's message made me think about what it >would take to add the features I wasn't already planning on. Depends on what you mean by "crypto-anarchy stuff." As I see it, it means building a reasonably robust economic system, a market or agora with various transaction mechanisms built in. Sort of a cross between "SimCity" and Vinge's "True Names." >I'm still interested in ideas as to what primitives I should fake. > >> And as Jim Bell noted, there are all sorts of costs which are not properly >> accounted for. I would not, for example, expect anything interesting to >> emerge out of the simulation of "assassination politics" in such a game, as >> the costs, dangers, moral issues, and whatnot are not properly >> accounted-for in such a MUD-type simulation. (No more so than in a fantasy >> role-playing game, where characters die routinely...) > >After I think about it more, I realize that a MUD simulation can't show >that something like "assassination politics" wouldn't work. At best it >can show that it does or doesn't work in that particular environment, >leaving open the question of what key difference between MUD and reality >might change the result. Still, it would be interesting to see how it >worked, or why it didn't. Even if well-implemented (a _lot_ of effort), I doubt it would say anything more about the real-world aspects of some future crypto-anarchic world than, say, playing "Risk" or "Diplomacy" has meaningful things to say about how nations form alliances and go to war with other nations. Or as much as playing "Monopoly" teaches one about actual business and economic interactions. (Before defenders of these games jump in with comments about how useful and enjoyable these games are, sure, some knowledge is gained. But huge differences are obvious. A conclusion drawn from playing these games will not hold up in the real world. I expect the same is true of "assassination politics.") --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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