December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Social Security Fraud
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Red Rackham wrote: >>>As for the social security number, it has been claimed many times on >>>this list that nobody checks them anyway. There are programs which >>>generate real-appearing numbers. (I think one was called >>>"ssn.exe".) > >>While I understand the greater social good, I, personally, am not >>interested in violating applicable fraud statutes. This is a >>borderline case in which consideration to the idea, of course, should >>be given. I would hesitate to expose these people to that risk. > >I would not propose committing fraud. I do not understand who would >be defrauded by giving an employer an incorrect social security >number. The company pays the salary either way. To which Matthew J. Miszewski replied: >>I would not propose committing fraud. I do not understand who would > >You already have. As Mr. Miszewski is clearly too busy to answer my question, perhaps some of the lawyers on the list will be kind enough to help me out. Under what conditions is it fraudulent to give the wrong social security number? It seems to me that in the case of an employee giving the wrong number to his employer, the only person that suffers is the employee through loss of future payments from the Social Security Administration. The employer certainly doesn't suffer. Assume that the income tax is paid. What laws would an employee violate? What are the chances of conviction? What are the likely penalties if convicted? Red Rackham

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Elliptic curves
by Admin＠bexcol.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You are all a bunch of faggots. Faggot cannot be allowed on usenet as dictated by the great dr. Grubor. Fuck you all.

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Re: Redlining
by Matthew J. Miszewski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >(Let me add that remailers are great. I would be reluctant to express >these ideas in any other way for professional reasons.) hehehe. >(Those who don't believe me should get "Love Supreme" by John Coltrane >and listen to it carefully about 20 times. There are layers and And what was it that Bird's contemporary society called him? Was it crazy? This is one of the social ills potentially caused by discrimination. Far more important to me than the politics of any time is the music that a time period presents. But this visionary jazz musician was all but discredited by the musical environment of the times. Thankfully, it survived on its merits. But imagine if the campaign to discredit Coltrane had been successful and my young ears never experienced that beauty. That is part of the potential harm I am talking about. >At any rate, those who wish to enlighten their fellows on the subject >of racism can do better than "it's just wrong." Many of us take many different routes. Most of us fill our days taking action and have precious little time to enlighten people other than those they encounter daily. > >Red Rackham > Matt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMq+H+LpijqL8wiT1AQEilQQAj4OeVtlDt8OKZmQ6ntLtlG04mMmkRDMa SDSvr0wOuWb5fDQ/TZSB681giFuGOQAtxFMsoZCOM2hodUd0FpbQqTd/EuStEMDp /4doFWAlMoJLs9VK5cAIOppYzVl68NmUoYA/v96ZRHkIaRlV6Ovgfb0ObAB3XT+E HZIrmY82lig= =gn6/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Redlining
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"ichudov(a)algebra.com" 11-DEC-1996 14:01:18.43 >The problem is, people can choose what credit history they want to have >(I can be a saver or a spender, for example), but nobody can change the >color of their skin. >This is central point of the theory why discrimination based on credit >histories is OK, while the discrimination based on race is not. First, I would point out that redlining does not necessarily equal credit discrimination based on race; it may mean credit discrimination based on poverty, which has an unfortunately high correlation with being a member of some races. (I won't go into the explanations for why this is the case here; most people who try to explain it don't take enough factors into account.) Second, let's take a look at whether inequalities based on factors that people cannot change is something that is wrong. This topic is wider in its application than redlining and credit; one example important to me in my field is in genetic screening usage for insurance purposes. (In that case, you've also got that limits on insurance uses of data when individuals can gather the data in question mean that someone can predict their own chances of needing insurance... leading to those who are healthy not purchasing it, and those who aren't purchasing it.) The first topic to mention in this regard is that of privacy. I believe I am among most people in finding a question about my behavior (e.g, my sexual activities) significantly more intrusive than a question about my personal characteristics (e.g., my gender). But I would hope that everyone would agree that it would be idiotic and irresponsible not to have someone's payments for insurance vary with their behavior; this would encourage irresponsible behavior and discourage responsible behavior. The second topic to mention in this regard is that inequality due to factors one cannot change is a fact of life. This is particularly true of capitalism (e.g., someone who has a genetic tendency toward large size will consume more food and thus spend more money on food), but it is also a problem in any other economic system - economics is not all of life. Even if one concludes that inequality is wrongful and needs to be "alleviated", there are many areas more important than credit on which one would logically start... such as forbidding merit-based admissions, which are biased in favor of those with higher IQs. I trust that my audience sees exactly why this idea, and similar ideas, are ultimately nonsense? The third topic is that one commonly applied idea used by the proponents of absolute equality is that found in Rawls' _Theory of Justice_, under which the just outcome is said to be found by a group of people who do not know what situation they will be in. (This is a vast oversimplification of the book(s) in question, which upon closer examination may realize the idea I am about to write down.) The simplistic conclusion is that everyone will want everything to be the same, since any individual might be in a bad or good situation. But if you have a choice between 49 dollars and a 50/50 chance of 0 or 100 dollars, you should take the latter. In other words, a situation in which inequalities exist can still be one that is overall better than a fully equal situation. There are a number of respects in which the insurance and credit markets fall under this category. The most obvious is the direct cost of regulation. Less obvious but perhaps more important is the uncertainty factor; the use of more data (for an insurance or credit decision) leads to less uncertainty in the ultimate outcome, and thus to less risk of unexpected claims (for insurance) or defaults (for credit). Thus, smaller businesses (which are also made more possible by lowering other regulatory costs) can exist in a deregulated insurance or credit market. The removal of the current ogliopolistic situation in such markets for the initial insurance or credit grantor would improve prices. -Allen

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Whom can you trust with your keys -- government version
by Hal Abelson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The Commerce Department draft crypto export regulations (see http://www.steptoe.com/commerce.htm) include the following stipulation on Key Recovery Agents: Evidence of an individual's suitability and trustworthiness [to act as a key recovery agent] shall include: (i) Information indicating that the individual(s): (A) Has no criminal convictions of any kind or pending criminal charges of any kind; (B) Has not breached fiduciary responsibilities (e.g., has not violated any surety or performance bonds); and (C) Has favorable results of a credit check; or, (ii) Information that the individual(s) has an active U.S. government security clearance of Secret or higher issued or updated within the last five years. It's nice to know that we can trust ex-cons, frauds, and deadbeats to hold our keys, provided that they have obtained a Secret clearance. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBMrBrBfiGKLV9Y6XFAQH53AP5AXAG5ys1ju6R1imLJYTKQcgDtNec9YBw kSimzx/GIOAf0eWJFTU+fMTsJp9g7K1LasNYRYfXM2aqPuwB6UJ2PU1JKhi2u8ew Qk06TllDvhzGwWTCAd53J616181srw3Gb+lARvBQT4m/1trRNDR24d0rdxS7jxPk ytwNprO06zQ= =CXXb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Redlining
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"mjmiski(a)execpc.com" "Matthew J. Miszewski" 12-DEC-1996 11:32:36.79 >Just wanted to clear up that my reference to student loans was not meant to >start a discussion of the granting of _those_ loans. It was meant to spark >a discussion of the lending to those borrowers *after* they graduate. As a >group, their default rate is generally high. And yet, as a group, the >extension of credit to these people is not systematically denied (as in >redlining). >I take responsibility for the thread being confused as I believe my first >mention of it was unclear. mea culpa. I see... that explains your apparantly nonsensical answer that the guarantees on student loans don't make any difference. Quite alright; we all make mistakes. I would like to suggest that the essential problem in determining loans to those who have just graduated is that of headaches in gathering sufficient information; namely, the cost of finding out "is this a good school" and "how good are this person's prospects" are sufficiently high so as to make up for the default rates. As previously mentioned by Dale Thorn, the inclusion in this figure of various trade schools is also a (related) problem, one that Clinton's proposal of student loans for 2 years of college for _everyone_ would make worse. -Allen

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Re: Redlining
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"ichudov(a)algebra.com" 11-DEC-1996 19:45:12.83 >A good question. It is based on the theory that every person has a >"utility" function in their mind. This function determines the "worth" >of money and worthiness of risk. >If that function as a function of income is strictly concave Except in the case of a consumer for whom the lower end is essentially no different than 0 - e.g., a minimum amount for survival - having a concave utility function for money (as opposed to less-convertible goods/services) is irrational. While I am in favor of allowing people to be irrational if they so desire, I am not in favor of governmental rules (e.g., coercive rules) being determined by irrationality. See my comments on emotion to Matt M. -Allen

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Thank you for using PostOne service
by PObox Adminstrator 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Merry Christmas, CypherWimps-love-SantaSpam
by Santa Claus 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Merry Christmas, CypherWimps-hate-SantaSpam
by Santa Claus 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

An Xmas greeting from cypherwimps(a)post1.com ..... ** **** ****** ******** ********** ************ ************** **************** ****************** ******************** ********************** S A N T A * * * N O R T H P O L E | | \____/ Wherever you go, whatever you do, Remember that Santa is always with you. I live in your heart, I dance in your soul, I show you what love is, and good things to know. The Spirit of Christmas spreads all through the land, With joy and the giving of gifts you should have. But gifts are just one thing to give and to get -- We wish you much more, far more than that. My elves send you pride in whatever you do, My reindeer give strength on days you feel blue, My wife, Mrs. Claus, grants wisdom and grace, Belief in yourself and all you create. And me, what do I give? Is there much more? Plenty and plenty you won't find in stores. I give you the knowledge that you can do more Than you ever knew -- of that be quite sure. My sleigh's packed with toys, my list sweeps the floor, A cup of hot cocoa and I'm out the door. Just gaze high in the sky where Peace always soars, And you live in my heart as I live in yours. * * * * * * M e r r y C h r i s t m a s * * S a n t a C l a u s --------- This santa poem was sent to you from the person with the following e-mail address: cypherwimps(a)post1.com If you would like to return the greeting then stop by the ReplyNet Santa Site at www.reply.net/santa.html Your e-mail address is NOT being collected or stored.

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