December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Please don't killfile juno.com
by Will French 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Looks to me like there's at least one person at Juno who's interested in serious crypto. This message just appeared on the list, but I'm forwarding it in case anyone's actually killfiled the site. ---begin forward--- > I apologize for any behavior on behalf of my domain name. > (A little background:) > I am a cryptographer hopeful. I was interested in such things > as the Caesar Cypher and the Enigma machine and the Roman > encryption "padlock" when other kids were more interested in > how the water fountain shot water straight up. After some > thought and a little writing, I developed an encryption > program using Mallard Basic on an old Amstrad (which I still > grudgingly keep) with programming skills I taught myself. > I know most of the basics regarding RSA, PGP, and assorted > single pass (?) cyphers. One thing I do not understand has to > do with how RSA sieves large primes, etc. That is one of the > few things that I do not understand about RSA. Another aspect > of RSA I do not understand is the usage of primes (or any > number) in the actual encryption process. Does the program add > numbers from the key to the plaintext to create the > cyphertext, or does it use some other process. > I am sorry if any of these questions seem redundant and/or > stupid, but at this point in time, I can't get my hands on any > actual explanation for how it works. (I would get a copy of > "Applied Cryptography," but I do not have any source of > income, which also explains Juno.) Aiieee!!! the dreaded "J" > word! > Once again, I apologize if any of this caused annoyance or > sickness.

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Re: LACC: Bernie S. attacked in prison
by Julian Assange 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >Of course. Surprising or shocking? Not in the least. > > > > Nico Garcia > > raoul(a)tiac.net > > Every day that I wake up, I'm amazed at how far this country has > devolved. When rational people sit quietly and accept the abuses of the > police and other authorities, it is a sign that society has truly turned > belly-up. I was shocked. I've had some dealings with the SS. Their behavior in court, painting Ed as a "terrorist" was to be expected, NOT condoned. What happened to Ed in prison is shocking. If Ed was a killer of little children, then I could understand. He wasn't. At his worst Ed's crime was no more than petty white collar fraud. Ed would not have been imprisoned in Australia. I've reviewed many US computer crime / toll fraud cases, including sentencing decisions. I found myself very unimpressed with US sentencing guidelines, which are extremely rigid and compartmentalised, leaving a sentencing judge with almost no disgression or ability to impose a sentence that fits the crime as a whole or the defendant as a whole. Whether Nico or anyone else found the violence against Cummings "shocking" or "to be expected" or not, is of no import. No one is surprised to hear that a pretty girl walking alone through central park in the middle of the night has been brutally raped. This makes the crime, and its effects on the victim no less hideous. Those that abuse their power and inflict grave violence on others must be held accountable and their crimes deplored and punished in the strongest manner. Failure to do so merely creates an environment where such behavior becomes predominant. This is not acceptable. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+ |Julian Assange RSO | PO Box 2031 BARKER | Secret Analytic Guy Union | |proff(a)suburbia.net | VIC 3122 AUSTRALIA | finger for PGP key hash ID = | |proff(a)gnu.ai.mit.edu | FAX +61-3-98199066 | 0619737CCC143F6DEA73E27378933690 | +---------------------+--------------------+----------------------------------+

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Digital rights organisation
by Stephan Schmidt 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, thinking about what happend in Germany, are there any 'digital rights' organisations in Germany ? If not, we would like to found one. Are there any international orgs (EFF?,...) who can help us ? What goals do they have ? To Germans: How do I found an e.V. in Germany ? Thanks for the help in advance, -stephan

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Re: TWA 800 - Serious thread.
by Jim Ray 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: gary(a)systemics.com, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Wed Sep 11 07:41:52 1996 Gary wrote: <...> > Ah, but isn't "jury selection" the process of selecting those that > don't > know they are judging the law as well as the case? But Gary, don't you see that's good? We need to get laws *back* against witches, against fugitive slaves, against forming unions, against drinking alcohol, etc. and truth certainly shouldn't be an absolute defense against libel! "Our" country is slowly lapsing into anarchy, and would likely go even further if we didn't have the moral Exons, Packwoods, Clintons, and Rostenkowskis to lead us and protect us! [For those who don't know me, I'm being sarcastic.] JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "As govt.s grow arithmetically, corruption grows exponentially." -- Ray's Law of official corruption. Defeat the Duopoly! Stop the Browne out. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ http://www.twr.com/stbo ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 <mailto:liberty@gate.net> http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray ___________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMjalhW1lp8bpvW01AQHgLwP/Y2wSCTCqt9BDeGlcCyde3UMHb5VwthKB 0axWAEsQgdL9sDwbAlT8H1nT36q6ofBf6Hk97KB8eL5SnLQgBjA1xMMNVc2IBcFm gG8+k4Y9PndEzvYO+HreYVYEF8TFB/WhZt42mYm7ZzpkHHok3iMEHIW3ZpEzPlxc cJVATpNS6NA= =i6Nw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Hacking Mobil Telephone System ?
by Stephan Schmidt 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Allgaeuer Zeitung, 9.9.96 says: (A German newspaper) The German Company MobilCom wants to proove that the German GSM networks D1,D2 and E+ are secure. There have been rumors that it's possible to phone with a hacked code. If a hacker is able to phone using the number 0171 / 3 28 99 66 in Germany with a hacked code, the company will pay 100.000 DM (~65.000$) to a non profit organisation of the hackers choice. Is someone able to do this ? :) (No responsibility taken for the translation.) -stephan

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Factory Memory
by pgruber＠nz1.netzone.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Factory memory update... As you know, the new software applications are very memory hungry. As a direct source for memory products we can make your memory upgrade affordable. These are the latest prices for popular memory 72 pin SIMM memory boards: 4MB $19.99 US 8MB $39.99 US 16MB $89.99 US 32MB $219.00 US Many more styles and sizes are available on our website - www.gruber.com, or call us at (602) 863-2655 or fax at (602) 257-4313 We also offer a tool free number at 800 658-5883 (USA only). Thank you, Pete Pete Gruber pgruber(a)netzone.com (602) 863-2655 Voice (602) 257-4313 Fax

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Re: Child Porn as Thoughtcrime
by Jim Ray 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: m5(a)tivoli.com, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Wed Sep 11 09:35:17 1996 Mike M Nally wrote: > Declan McCullagh wrote: <snip> > > Under the Knox decision, yes. (Dancing girls in leotards are verboten.) > > Is this going to have some implications for broadcast of the women's > gymnastic events in the next Olympics? Presumably, that depends on how/where/why the cameraman zooms in, if I am reading the case (and/or the judges' minds) right. [OK, I'll shut up now.] JMR Regards, Jim Ray -- DNRC Minister of Encryption Advocacy "As govt.s grow arithmetically, corruption grows exponentially." -- Ray's Law of official corruption. Defeat the Duopoly! Stop the Browne out. Harry Browne for President. Jo Jorgensen for Vice-president. http://www.HarryBrowne96.org/ http://www.twr.com/stbo ___________________________________________________________________ PGP id.E9BD6D35 51 5D A2 C3 92 2C 56 BE 53 2D 9C A1 B3 50 C9 C8 <mailto:liberty@gate.net> http://www.shopmiami.com/prs/jimray ___________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMjbAG21lp8bpvW01AQEpKwP+NEJ3CQ3l1D1n4rwU6WZQuZlcEe0pUYJe 7qjyknU9sTrdkmfid7PYCAWYFbLYtmT7nBzPXG/6Cxjzq3Mti6OWzvJheE30qjaY 5zndbdm++E2t4WRCu6GLVDXjjXMk118/HqR0weaNURzhhxVCJkX8WfGjYIcruZhX LguDNUs1//A= =xD4K -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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number theory paper resource
by Andrew Fabbro 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, A L wrote: > I know most of the basics regarding RSA, PGP, and > assorted single pass (?) cyphers. One thing I do not > understand has to do with how RSA sieves large primes, As recently mention in sci.crypt...there's an interesting page with papers on number theory & cryptology at: http://www.ph.tn.tudelft.nl/~visser (~visser/crypto.html is the exact page you probably want) Andrew Fabbro [afabbro(a)umich.edu] http://www-personal.umich.edu/~afabbro/ PGP mail preferred; finger afabbro(a)us.itd.umich.edu for key "A good marketing organization listens to its customers...WE HEAR YOU!" - the National Security Agency -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMjbKlboWkgjb6N6dAQFBHAP/fO8gFhbAoQiB132Aan1ZR4X3hfcoyh3n Io60fqD/5Ys1eGqaqUTxEjC1pZTzVOj5AxXYOBG7/vaqJ+FQelakW7Gs8eHTKqmA 3S4fQnISbUUrJWJf6OK7y7o+BupvZByOQ/wW4tE8xEFrSNYlKZVhFU+H/4+uOEUA QNe8amszNGo= =D6j6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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ALERT: Call the Commerce committee! 1-800-962-3524
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

checking my files and verifying the number this morning, I find that there is an active 1-800 number to call Congress. (Don't know who'se it is, but it reaches the Congressional switchboard...) The Capitol Switchboard can be reached at 1-800-962-3524. At 12:42 AM 9/11/96 -0400, Voters Telecommunications Watch wrote: >======================================================================== > > SENATE COMMERCE COMMITTEE VOTE TOMORROW IN QUESTION > WHITE HOUSE STALLING; THE NET CAN SAVE THE VOTE > > OFFICES ARE RECEIVING 'LOTS OF CALLS' > MAKE A CALL TO THE COMMERCE COMMITTEE > > September 11, 1996 > > Please widely redistribute this document with this banner intact > until September 30, 1996 > >________________________________________________________________________ >CONTENTS > The Latest News > What You Can Do Now > Background / What To Expect This Week > Description of S.1726, Pro-CODE Bill > Chronology of Pro-Crypto Legislation > For More Information / Supporting Organizations > >________________________________________________________________________ >THE LATEST NEWS > >Sometimes things work out better than imagined. This was the feeling >tonight as I waded through my email from people all over the country that >called the commerce committee. This was the feeling as I heard from visitors >to one Senator's office who, while waiting for a few minutes in the lobby, >listened to the receptionist take two quick calls from netizens calling >about the bill. > >Receptionist, cutting the caller off: "S.1726? Yes, I'll pass that along >to the Senator, thanks. We've been getting a lot of calls." > >Another netizen emailed us saying that he also called his Representative. >It turns out this Rep. has some friends who have co-sponsored HR 3011, the >House version of Pro-CODE. The calls and elevated publicity from this phone >campaign have convinced him to consider co-sponsoring HR 3011. > >This is great, but our success has mobilized the anti-crypto forces >into action as well. The Clinton Administration, who has long opposed >the right of citizens to use non-Clipper encryption, has begun working >behind the scenes to make sure that the vote on Pro-CODE (S.1726) never >happens. > >To have the Senate Commerce committee go on record that encryption exports >should be loosened, against the will of the Administration, would be >an embarrassment to the White House. They have begun pushing hard to >pressure Democratic Commerce Committee members to put the brakes on the >bill, and do everything they can to prevent the vote this Thursday. > >To see the business community, the industry, and the public line up the >Administration would be extremely hard to take and still seem >credible. > >It's crucial that we continue to make noise and ring those phones. By >pulling enough favors with members of the Senate Commerce Committee, it's >possible that the White House could prevent this vote from happening. > >WE MUST NOT LET THAT HAPPEN. Appropriately forward this to everyone you >know until the expiration listed above. Go to work, bug your neighbor >in the cubicle or office next to you. Have they called yet? Bug them >until they do. Call the rest of the members you haven't gotten around to >yet. > >And don't forget to sign the petition at http://www.crypto.com/petition/ ! > >[Rest of alert is the same from last time] >________________________________________________________________________ >WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW > >It's crucial that you call the Commerce committee members below and >urge them to pass S.1726 out of committee without amendments. (This is >also known as a "clean" bill.) Any opportunity for amendments (even if >they are good) opens us up to the possibility of hostile amendments >that could restrict the use of encryption even further than today's >abysmal state. It could even prohibit the use of encryption without >Clipper Chip-like key 'escrow' technology, which includes built-in >surveillance and monitoring functionality. > >1. Call/Fax the members of the Senate Commerce committee and urge > them to pass S.1726 out of committee "cleanly". Do not use email, > as it is not likely to be looked at in time to make a difference > for the markup on September 12th. > > Use the sample communique and directory listing below to make it a > simple TWO MINUTE task. > >2. Sign the petition to support strong encryption at > http://www.crypto.com/petition/ ! Join other cyber-heroes as > Phil Zimmermann, Matt Blaze, Bruce Schneier, Vince Cate, Phil Karn, and > others who have also signed. > >3. Between now and Wed. September 12, it is crucial that you call all > these members of Congress. > > P ST Name and Address Phone Fax > = == ======================== ============== ============== > D SC Hollings, Ernest F. 1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293 > D MA Kerry, John F. 1-202-224-2742 1-202-224-8525 > D HI Inouye, Daniel K. 1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747 > D KY Ford, Wendell H. 1-202-224-4343 1-202-224-0046 > D WV Rockefeller, John D. 1-202-224-6472 1-202-224-7665 > D LA Breaux, John B. 1-202-224-4623 1-202-228-2577 > D NV Bryan, Richard H. 1-202-224-6244 1-202-224-1867 > D ND Dorgan, Byron L. 1-202-224-2551 1-202-224-1193 > D NE Exon, J. J. 1-202-224-4224 1-202-224-5213 > D OR Wyden, Ron* 1-202-224-5244 1-202-228-2717 > > R SD Pressler, Larry* 1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1259 > R MT Burns, Conrad R.(*sponsor) 1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594 > R AK Stevens, Ted 1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-2354 > R AZ McCain, John 1-202-224-2235 1-202-228-2862 > R WA Gorton, Slade 1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393 > R MS Lott, Trent* 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262 > R TX Hutchison, Kay Bailey 1-202-224-5922 1-202-224-0776 > R ME Snowe, Olympia 1-202-224-5344 1-202-224-1946 > R MO Ashcroft, John* 1-202-224-6154 1-202-228-0998 > R TN Frist, Bill 1-202-224-3344 1-202-228-1264 > R MI Abraham, Spencer 1-202-224-4822 1-202-224-8834 > > * supporter or cosponsor. The bill also enjoys broad bi-partisan > support from members not on the committee including Senators Leahy > (D-VT) and Murray (D-WA). > >4. Here is a sample conversation: > > SAMPLE PHONE CALL > You:<ring ring> > Sen:Hello, Senator Mojo's office! > > You: > >SAY I'm calling to urge the Senator to pass S.1726, the >THIS-> Burns/Leahy/Pressler bill, S.1726 when the committee votes on > it on Thursday. It's critical to the future of privacy, security, > and electronic commerce on the internet. > > Sen:Ok, thanks!<click> > > IF THEY SAY > "The Senator has concerns about the bill", > please answer, > "Please try to work these issues out as it moves to the Senate floor, > but passage out of committee will send an important signal to > the Administration." > >5. To help us measure the effectiveness of the campaign, WE NEED TO HEAR FROM > YOU. Please tell us who you called, and how they sounded. We'll be > passing this information to folks in D.C. who can help apply pressure > where needed. > > $ Mail vtw(a)vtw.org > Subject: I called so-and-so > > Hey, I called Sen. Mojo. He sounded iffy, call in the > reinforcements. > ^D > >6. Forward this to your friends and colleagues in appropriate forums > until the date of expiration at the top. Forward a copy of this to > your Internet Service Provider as well, and ask them to put the following > text in their message of the day (motd), or on their WWW page: > > ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT > > The U.S. Senate will be voting on a proposal to encourage > better security on the Internet on Thu Sep. 12th. Your help is > needed to call Congress. See http://www.crypto.com/ for more > details. > > ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT > >________________________________________________________________________ >BACKGROUND / WHAT TO EXPECT THIS WEEK > >For the past 3 years, Cyber-Rights Activists, citizens, and industry >leaders have been working hard to reform US encryption policy. > >Support has been building behind several legislative proposals this >year because they send a clear signal to the Administration about the >need for security and privacy in the Information Age. The digital >revolution is currently being held hostage by the White House's Cold >War restrictions on privacy-enhancing encryption technology. > >Now, with Congress less than a month away from adjournment, everyone >who supports encryption and privacy is working to see this bill leave >committee in order to send a clear message to the White House that they >are on the wrong side of the encryption issue. Although this bill may >not become law this year, its passage out of committee will be a >landmark event that will clearly tell the White House that the >Congress, the public, and the computer industry care about security and >privacy, and need strong, reliable encryption technology in order to >make the Internet a viable platform for commerce, education, and >democracy. > >Success for our side is not certain, and the next week is not without risks. >On September 12th, the Senate Commerce committee will hold a "markup", >where the bill is examined, voted on, and if there are enough votes, >passed out of committee. Two things could happen: > > -the committee could pass the bill as written, > -the committee could pass the bill with amendments. > >Any amendments are not likely to be friendly, and in particular, quiet >sources have told privacy activists that the Clinton Administration has been >readying a legislative assault on your right to use encryption for several >weeks now. A Clipper-like amendment could be attached to the bill if >our side does not have enough votes to block all amendments. > >It is crucial that all netizens who consider privacy and security important >take a moment to call members of the Commerce Committee right now and >urge them to vote S.1726 out of committee without amendments. > >________________________________________________________________________ >DESCRIPTION OF S.1726, PRO-CODE BILL > >Privacy-enhancing encryption technology is currently under heavy restrictions >kept in place by the White House. Encryption that is currently allowed to >be exported is not sufficient to protect confidential information. This >policy acquires an "Alice-in-Wonderland" quality when one realizes that >strong encryption products are available abroad both for sale and for free >download off the Internet. > >The Pro-CODE Act resolves to: > >1. Allow for the *unrestricted* export of "mass-market" or "public-domain" > encryption programs, including such products as Pretty Good Privacy and > popular World Wide Web browsers. > >2. Requires the Secretary of Commerce to allow the less restricted export > of other encryption technologies if products of similar strength are > generally available outside the United States, roughly up to DES > strength. > >3. Prohibits the federal government from imposing mandatory key-escrow > encryption policies on the domestic market and limiting the authority > of the Secretary of Commerce to set standards for encryption products. > >________________________________________________________________________ >CHRONOLOGY OF PRO-CRYPTO LEGISLATION > >9/12/96 (scheduled) >Senate Commerce committee will hold markup of S.1726 and hopefully pass it >out of committee with no amendments. > >7/25/96: Full Senate Commerce committee holds positive hearings on S.1726. >FBI Director Louis Freeh testifies along with many cyber-luminaries. >Hearings are cybercast Internet Cyber-Rights activists with HotWired >and WWW.Crypto.Com. You can see the photos, read the testimony, and >listen to the audio transcript at http://www.crypto.com/events/072596/ > >6/26/96: Senate subcommittee holds positive hearings on S.1726. Hearings are >cybercast Internet Cyber-Rights activists with HotWired and WWW.Crypto.Com. >You can see the photos, read the testimony, and listen to the audio >transcript at http://www.crypto.com/events/062696/ > >5/2/96: Bi-partisan group of Senators introduce Pro-CODE Act, which would >free public-domain encryption software (such as PGP) for export, free much >commercial encryption for export, and reduce the government's ability to >push Clipper proposals down the throats of an unwilling public. Original >sponsors include: Senators Burns (R-MT), Dole (R-KS), Faircloth (R-NC), >Leahy (D-VT), Murray (D-WA), Pressler (R-SD), and Wyden (D-OR). > >3/5/96: Sen. Leahy (D-VT) and Rep. Goodlatte (R-VA) announce encryption bills >(S.1587/H.R.3011) that significantly relax export restrictions on products >with encryption functionality in them, as well as free public domain software >such as PGP (Pretty Good Privacy). > >________________________________________________________________________ >FOR MORE INFORMATION / SUPPORTING ORGANIZATIONS > >There are many excellent resources online to get up to speed on crypto >including the following WWW sites: > >http://www.crypto.com http://www.privacy.org http://www.eff.org >http://www.cdt.org http://www.epic.org http://www.vtw.org > >Please visit them often. > >The following organizations have signed onto this alert: > > Center for Democracy and Technology > Electronic Frontier Foundation > Electronic Privacy Information Center > Voters Telecommunications Watch > >________________________________________________________________________ >End alert >======================================================================== > > Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Child porn as thoughtcrime
by Chuck Thompson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The answer to the all the questions in the first set is yes, in this country anyway, if they are interpreted by the legal system as intending to incite illicit sexual acts, fantasies or obsessions about children. The fantasies or obsessions are assumed to lead to the illegal acts. >Whom is exploiting whom? Well, I'd say that anyone who benefits materially from the distribution of child porn is exploiting either the children, the pervert or both. >Which acts are crimes? Most of them, in this country. A few would be open to interpretation by the courts. >I submit that the various child porn laws we have in the United States are about the >clearest examples of "thoughtcrime" one can find, where the _thought_ is what is being >criminalized. I agree that it is an excellent example for your proposition regarding thoughtcrime. I disagree that the thought is what is illegal, consequently the subject doesn't work as the basis for your argument. *Thinking* about commiting a crime is not illegal, *acting* on your thought may be. Exp: I can think/ponder about killing my enemy. Until I do something about my thoughts, I'm not guilty of a crime. If I begin to discuss the commission of a crime with you, and it could be proven that the discussion was actually a part of the planning to commit such a crime, then, at the very least, we are guilty of conspiracy to commit a crime. Intent to commit an actual crime must be proven. >-- consumption of child porn creates a market >-- it harms the children >-- it's disgusting >-- etc. >Clearly the first argument applies to many other things. Why not outlaw pro-drug speech? Hold on here.. you are making an invalid comparison. To my knowledge, there is no law against speaking in favor of child porn, any more than there is against speaking in favor of drug usage. It against the law to *use* either of them. >The second argument, that children are actually harmed, is vitiated by the fact that >much so-called child porn comes from countries where the actors are of legal age. >How can a 14-year-old Thai girl be "harmed" when what she is bing paid to do is >perfectly legal in Thailand? There you go again.. being legal does not, in any way, mitigate it's harmfulness. There may be places on this earth where it is legal to convince a two-year-old to perform some sexually gratifying act by giving her a piece of candy. Just because it is legal doesn't mean it won't scar the child. The effect on the child is what is illegal, in this case. >And the case of morphings, drawings, stories, etc., clearly involve no actual children, >so the argument that children are harmed is empty. The argument is not dependent upon whether or not actual children are used, any more than whether or not an actual gun is used in a robbery - the net effect is the same. Children are harmed by the promotion of child porn because it leads to the abuse/exploitation of kids. >As to me argument that images, stories, etc., are disgusting, amoral, inappropriate, >etc., well, perhaps. But what is the legal and constitutional basis for restricting >such things? Many opinions and actions are vile and disgusting, but are not illegal. >Under what interpretation of the Constitution is the creation of a drawing depicting, >say, a 7-year-old girl having sex with someone or something a criminal act? The >obscenity laws? First, you must separate opinions from actions. In this country, opinions are not ever illegal. Some actions are. The illegality is probably (I'm out of my depth here, not being a lawyer or student of the constitution) based on various laws which would fall under the umbrella of "obscenity". We, as a society, have the right to formulate, pass and enact legislation which we deem to be in our best interests. And, as long as the laws which are passed do not violate our constitution, the underlying basis for passing such laws, the fact that an individual may not agree with the law does not give that individual the right to violate it without consequence. In other words, an individual may be able to violate a law without consequence, if he can prove that the law is unconstitutional. >My point is this: For anyone who claims that "thoughtcrime" is something the Evil >Empire specialized in, i.e., totalitarian communist regimes, look to the enforcement of >laws about what can be viewed or accessed from the United States. Thoughtcrime. Your case is weak, because it is based on the false premise that the illegality of child pornography equates to illegality of thought. It is overt action which is illegal, not thought. Let those who believe that they have a constitutional right to "keep and bear child pornography" violate the various laws and see if they can prove that their constitutional rights are violated by the law which proscribes such things. By the way, Tim, I found your "translation" to be offensive, crude and deliberately provocative. I do, however, support your right to publish it. Generally speaking, I find your missives to be enlightening and appreciate the way they cause me to think carefully about my position on various topics. Regards, Chuck Thompson

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