December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

hahaha
by nobody＠cypherpunks.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

test

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Re: Dr. Vulis
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:59 PM 11/5/96 +0100, Gary Howland wrote: >> > I recall we've been through this over a year ago, when I saw an announcement >> > of a cypherpunks physical meeting where someone was excluded for his political >> > views, and I said that I don't consider myself a cypherpunk. I'm glad that >> > John and Bill, the auhorities on cypherpunk membership, finally concur. > > >I think he is referring to the explicit and public non-invite of Jim >Bell to a cypherpunks meeting, due to some of Jim Bell's Assination >Politics posts. >Gary I'd like to correct this impression. Alan Olsen was, apparently, quite aware of my AP posts when I (and everyone else) was invited to the first Portland CP meeting. I had heard no objection to them from him. The meeting was advertised as being sufficiently confidential that he specifically requested that nobody take pictures or record the meeting, etc. Fair enough, I thought. I generally interpreted this to mean that the meeting was at least approximately "off the record." Arriving at the meeting, I detected no indication that Alan Olsen was at all disturbed at me, or anything I had said previously. At the meeting all went well, _or_so_I_thought_. It was all very routine. One thing I decided to mention, actually only hint at, was a technical capability that I was working one. However, I gave merely the broadest hints; What I did say would certainly have sounded technically at least implausible, if not quite impossible. (The situation was somewhat analogous to the old story about the blind men coming across an elephant; one touches only the tail and calls it a snake, the other touches a leg and calls it a tree, etc.) Intentionally, I didn't explain how I would accomplish the goal I described. Even so, there was still no indication from Alan Olsen that anything was amiss. And the meeting ended on that note. Much to my surprise, Alan Olsen blurted out over the CP list only a barely fair description of what I had said (which itself was only the hints I chose to describe) and called me various names, etc. I think he used the term "voodoo" to describe what I was planning to develop. When, eventually, I _do_ explain the whole thing, and I repeat exactly what I told the assembled group, it will become obvious why what I described _sounded_ so implausible, yet was quite doable given modern technology. I should point out that given how little I told, avoiding the REAL explanation, it could very well have been taken for voodoo. And it didn't surprise me that SOMEBODY would have come to that impression. The surprising and shocking thing about it was that he (Alan Olsen) violated the very confidentiality he had insisted on, without any sort of warning, and after-the-fact. Needless to say, I raked him over the coals publicly, on CP, for having done this, and he was severely chastized because of this. "Ripped him a new one" might describe it, although he certainly deserved the treatment. Obviously, a number of people on this list got the mistaken impression that this disagreement had something to do with my AP proposal. As far as I know, quite the contrary, it did not. But I saw two possibilities, after the fact: One, Alan Olsen hid his disapproval for AP, hoping to catch me in some sort of contradiction. Two, after he was embarrassed by my calling him on his bad behavior, he grabbed at the first thing he could think of to criticize me. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: WIPO Treaty: Worse than CDA- Deadline 22 Nov 96
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:22 AM 11/11/96 +0000, attila(a)primenet.com wrote: > WIPO Treaty: Worse than CDA > Deadline 22 Nov 96 for comment to Congress > WIPO was introduced this spring to Congress. It is not > understood by either the Clinton administration or the Congress and > few of the public are aware of the problem! [snip] > I am deleting the bulk of the report for brevity, including only > the definition of the "database" as it applies to WIPO. > >.WHAT IS A DATABASE? WHAT ISN'T A DATABASE? >.The treaty would protect "any database that represents a >.substantial investment in the collection, assembly, verification, >.organization or presentation of the contents of the database." >. >.This term should be understood "to include collections of >.literary, musical or audiovisual works or any other kind of >.works, or collections of other materials such as texts, sounds, >.images, numbers, facts, or data representing any other matter or >.substance" and "may contain collections of expressions of >.folklore." The "protection shall be granted to databases >.irrespective of the form or medium in which they are embodied. Somebody must have said, once, that the winner in an argument is the one who gets to define the terms. Notice how the term "protect" and "protection" are misused above. (not by Attila, of course; but by whomever he's quoting.) However, the term "protect" has long been misused by lawyers in just such a way. "Monopolize" would be a more appropriate word under the circumstances. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: a retort + a comment + a question = [RANT]
by ph＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 9:45 PM 11/10/1996, SUCRUM22_at_INDY-ADP(a)smtp-gw.cv62.navy.mil wrote: > ...and you've got a foreign soldier waving a .45 around... Ummm.... just a .45? Peter Hendrickson ph(a)netcom.com

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No Subject
by Mark Neely 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>PLEASE TAKE ME OFF YOUR MAILING >LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sorry Jayme, but you didn't include the requisite number of !'s, so we cannot process your request. Mark Neely - accessnt(a)ozemail.com.au Lawyer, Internet Consultant, Professional Cynic & Author BizWeb: For Serious Intrepreneurs - www.maximedia.com.au/bizweb

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Re: a retort + a comment + a question = [RANT]
by Murray Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 10 Nov 96 21:45:56 EST, SUCRUM22_at_INDY-ADP(a)smtp-gw.cv62.navy.mil wrote: >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >dave kinchlea wrote: >>As said in "Hair" (the movie), "Don't do it for me man, 'cause >>if the shoe was on the other foot, I wouldn't do it for you!" > >>It's a lie anyway, you do it for yourself. > >That's an _easy_ judgment to make (and i definitely have to stop >adding anecdotes from my life in these things!), but you missed the >point - the freedoms the Cpunks diligently try to preserve (or seem to >want to create...) are protected _by_ the military. who was it that >said: "law, without force, is impotent" -? The military's sole purpose is to destroy things and kill people. Freedom is protected by the poeple for the people some of which are in the military. The force is not nessasary to enforce laws in most circumstances. How many gun battles erupt at speed traps? Granted, there are instances where some force is required in arresting violent individuals, but it is still illeagal for the police to use ecessive force. > >keep in mind that even "bad" laws have to be enforced. you can scream >all you want about "good, strong" cryptostuffs, but if the phone lines >are slashed, the satellite links are down, the elcerticity is off and >you've got a foreign soldier waving a .45 around - just how are you >going to boot up that pretty little computer and make it encode >information for you, much less get it anywhere? anarchy implies >ruthlessness - you going to practice cryptostuffs from a prison cell? You are wrong about bad laws being enforced. Many laws are not enforeced by the police. Have you never been "let off" or "givin a warning" by the police? How many times have you seen people j walk in front of the police who did nothing? Computers are not nessasary to encode data, they just make it a lot eaiser and faster. Where did I put that secret decoder ring???? mhayes(a)infomatch.com It's better for us if you don't understand It's better for me if you don't understand -Tragically Hip

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GAK?
by Mark M. Lacey 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Could someone please fill me in on what GAK stands for since it seems to be central to some of the on going conversations. Thanks, Mark M. Lacey <mml(a)halcyon.com> "Speaking for nobody but myself." [Finger mml(a)halcyon.com for my PGP public key.] [If you don't have 'finger', e-mail me for it.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMobmyB/Hx+OuZC/tAQGRTAf/R2t+/JC1k3lhQcqIcRWO2HyxHgf6+ko2 2ngQBXyMrInQtaXorcZ2LFrfie4GD68S0nLWKlwqaN09+/O72Bze1pyGd3dHBI4b vazgQZq1zxWuHcCYg1r5QDwt0NJOZg4tRHROHmUiuLLeNfFwusWPnW+RMI2nTo39 g/sXWhRUF83vhyztC5+zOKmxjEQOBf3Wxq0FLBAoSUjzuJKnRNV87Fnf2vzezqc4 cK+A8DcRN0c0kX/LuNO9pnXo+3J8gMMDsoZAOS5KAgWQjJT3fdroTLX4xmRcBVJ3 NanTSXWsFIMlnXAjBS7V+5S/3gAml+y5tqLiNJAhoVVD/nvyvQDmAg== =QyM4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Sifting data; looking for "strong crypto"
by Murray Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As far as bit patterns go, is executable code random? mhayes(a)infomatch.com It's better for us if you don't understand It's better for me if you don't understand -Tragically Hip

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two bogus messages to this list
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I did not write the two messages below. I did have a small party yesterday, probably some of my guests did that... - Igor. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Mon Nov 11 06:35:19 1996 Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com> Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with UUCP id GAA16814 for ichudov(a)algebra.com; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 06:34:44 -0600 Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id CAA20037 for <ichudov(a)algebra.com>; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 02:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01399 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.video-collage.com (www.video-collage.com [199.232.240.107]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA01394 for <cypherpunks(a)toad.com>; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:49:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with UUCP id AAA19874 for cypherpunks(a)toad.com; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ichudov@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) id XAA15989 for cypherpunks(a)toad.com; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 23:47:00 -0600 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 23:47:00 -0600 From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov(a)algebra.com> Message-Id: <199611110547.XAA15989(a)manifold.algebra.com> Subject: FUCK ME HARD Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk Status: O FUCK NME HARD >From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Mon Nov 11 00:35:29 1996 Return-Path: <cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com> Received: (from root@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) with UUCP id AAA16188 for ichudov(a)algebra.com; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:35:24 -0600 Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with ESMTP id BAA19940 for <ichudov(a)algebra.com>; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 01:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA00961 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.video-collage.com (www.video-collage.com [199.232.240.107]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00956 for <cypherpunks(a)toad.com>; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.0/8.8.0) with UUCP id AAA19793 for cypherpunks(a)toad.com; Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from ichudov@localhost) by manifold.algebra.com (8.8.2/8.8.2) id WAA15563 for cypherpunks(a)toad.com; Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:36:03 -0600 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:36:03 -0600 From: "Igor Chudov @ home" <ichudov(a)algebra.com> Message-Id: <199611110436.WAA15563(a)manifold.algebra.com> Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk Status: RO manifold::~==>premail -t cypherpunks(a)toad.com Chain: haystack;jam Subject: I urgently need a lot of money. Please share your money-making secrets, I am in a desperate need for cash.

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Re: Pyramid schemes and cryptoanarchy
by Clay Olbon II 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 04:39 PM 11/10/96 -0500, Rabid Wombat wrote: >On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Clay Olbon II wrote: > >> Pyramid schemes could be a growth market in a crypto-anarchic world. It is >> yet another market such as gambling, or the lottery, that could be conducted >> with anonymity. And it appears to be much more widespread on the internet > >How is it like gambling? If I get a pyramid letter instructing me to send >money to five people on the list, add my name to the bottom, send to 5 >people, or whatever, there's nothing stopping me from removing all the >names, adding my name and those of four friends, and passing the letter >along. With an anonymous system, I could easily be all five people, >without even the bother of getting five different post office boxes. I was not saying that chain letters are like gambling. My point was that they could be conducted with anonymity - like gambling and the lottery. Your other point is well made. Anyone have ideas on a protocol to prevent this problem? > >There's no gambling involved; only blantant stupidity. Agreed. Although I think gambling and the lottery are pretty stupid as well ("The lottery is a tax on people who are bad a math" - from a friend's .sig). >The "airplane" game was an interesting slant, though. Because of the >in-person "airplane" parties, people were able to make contacts and >network while participating. It was still the same old trick, but some >may have found the ability to "buy" (and "sell") face time worth the price >of admission (Some of the "airplane" games going around were to the tune >of $2500, rather than the usual $5). Your anonymous slant on >this removes the only economically viable excuse for participating, >though - I don't even get to meet the head of the umptysquat dept. in >return for getting fleeced. > >The "airplane game" was big around Washington about a year ago, and >involved a number of highly placed people who aught to have been able to >recognize a Ponzi scheme when it bit them in the ass. Makes me wonder how >many people are stupid enough to "play" these games. I'm not familiar with the airplane game. Sounds like a DNC fundraiser to me ;-) And yes, I think there are a lot of stupid people out there (ex. I started a new job recently and noticed that a warning about the "Good Times Virus" was posted on the bulletin board). I'm not sure that the game would even have to be close to fair for plenty of people to participate - especially if it involves digital cash and email, which may be much easier than snail-mailing letters. Clay ******************************************************* Clay Olbon clay.olbon(a)dynetics.com engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc. Dynetics, Inc. **********************************************tanstaafl

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