December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: telco's vs x-phones
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:19 AM 8/21/96 -0700, Brian D Williams wrote: > > >In a reply to Vipul Ved Prakash, Jim Bell wrote: > >>Assume 30 cents per meter per fiber for cabled fiber, or about $10 >(US) per meter for 36-fiber cable. > >Siecore plain vanilla 36 fiber singlemode list $ 1.82 a foot, $5.46 >a yard In other words, it's a fact of 5+ cheaper than I thought... >>Each fiber pair should be able to handle approximately 1 million >>conversations at current data rates, or a total of 18 million >>conversations for that 18-pair cable, or 9.5 trillion >>conversation-minutes. > >At current data rates (OC-48 Sonet) 32,256 voice channels per >fiber, 580,608 total for the fiber. Well, I think I blew a decimal point, there. Even so, semi-leading edge systems do about twice as well... > >Off by a factor of roughly 36 at this point. However, the errors partially cancel, so I'm actually off by a factor of 2. > >>Multiply this cost by 10 for right of way, trenching, repeaters, >>and other auxiliary hardware, or $100 per meter. This is probably >>just a ballpark estimate, but... > >Off by a factor of at least 10 not counting switching equipment. In which direction? BTW, keep in mind I'm considering long-haul LD links between cities and states, NOT the kind of trenching that requires digging up city streets most of the way. I don't doubt that some portions of a coast-to-coast link are substantially more expensive than $100 per meter, but as a proportion of the total length they are very small. >In a reply to me Jim bell wrote: > >>The long distance companies are not "using local networks," your >>customers are...to connect to those long distance companies. And >>any payments LD companies make to you are, indeed, a subsidy. >>Tell me, how much is this _subsidy_, exactly? > >Who's using who is a matter of perspective. Which is why you're unwilling to call it a "subsidy." >Q) if you call a dog's tail a "leg" how many legs does a dog have? > >A) four, calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one. > >Point? The LD companies pay to use the RBOC's networks, calling it >a subsidy doesn't make it one, except maybe to you. If they don't >like it, they are free (or soon will be) to build their own, or use >someone elses. > >>As an alternative, the phone company would presumably be entitled >>to be served by phone lines, at say $30 per month or so, through >>which their customers reach them. $30 per month is $1 per day or >>4 cents per hour or about 0.07 cents per minute. 3 cents doesn't >>equal 0.07 cents, now does it?!? > >"Presumably be entitled?" The RBOC's currently charge what >regulations allow, if the regs go away, they will charge what the >market will pay. You're full of inconsistencies. First, you stated that the local/LD subsidies "went away with the breakup" (paraphrased) yet NOW you're saying "RBOC's currently charge what regulations allow." I suggest that if those regulations "allow" RBOC's to charge 3 cents per minute to LD companies, _that_is_the_subsidy_ that you claimed had "gone away." It's obvious that you don't want to use the dirty word "subsidy," but that's exactly what this thing is! You need to remember that unless a price is defined by negotiation in the free market, there remains a possibility that it contains an underlying subsidy. Since the whole purpose of the the payment from the LD company to the local co was as a subsidy, unless that payment disappears there is always a question of whether the subsidy remains. Apparently it does. The most obvious alternative, one that doesn't contain an obvious subsidy is a "per line per month" pricing system, where the number of lines counted is the maximum number of simultaneous calls that can be made through a given LD company at one time. (NOT the total number of customers that the LD company has.) >>How has this remaining SUBSIDY dropped over time, assuming it has? >>When is it scheduled to drop to zero? > >The rate has gone down since the regs are changing and competition >is increasing. I would be interested in hearing why you think it >will ever drop to zero. It's because the locals don't NEED a subsidy. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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WinSock Remailer Available at Obscura
by Joey Grasty 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Y'all: The WinSock Remailer is now available for download from Lance Cottrell's homepage at: http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ Go to the export controlled section. After you traverse the export control form and get to the ftp site, you will find the remailer in the DOS directory. The filename is WSA12.ZIP. Inside you will find a README.TXT file (that contains information on how to setup the remailer), a PGP signature file WSRMA12.SIG, and the remailer binaries WSRMA12.ZIP. The signature file is used with PGP to check that the the WSRMA12.ZIP file has not been altered. Send me a note if you have any difficulty. A special thanks to Lance for his help and his disk space. Regards, -- Joey Grasty jgrasty(a)gate.net [home -- encryption, privacy, RKBA and other hopeless causes] jgrasty(a)pts.mot.com [work -- designing pagers] "Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin." -- John Von Neumann PGP = A7 CC 31 E4 7E A3 36 13 93 F4 C9 06 89 51 F5 A7

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[Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Acti...
by jbugden＠smtplink.alis.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Subject: [Noise] RE: Canada Imprisons People For Human Rights Activity jbugden(a)alis.com wrote: ! Nota: Quebec recently held a referendum on seperation from Canada. ! Just talk about secession of a state in the U.S., and you'll quickly see ! which country makes political ideas illegal. qut(a)netcom.com (Skip, OBC) >Exactly, we have freedom of speech alright, everone in the world does, >we're allowed to say "we don't believe you should remain in power," but >try to say, and mean, "we're going to try to take your power from you for >ourselves," and your group will very quickly find out the length of your >chains, the extent of our so called freedom. Actually, my comment was exactly the opposite. You may not be aware of what goes on with your neighbour to the north, but the province of Quebec currently has a government whose stated intention is independence from Canada. The recent public referendum for a mandate to seceed was defeated by a very small margin: 51% to 49% with 95% voter turnout. "Her majesty's loyal opposition" in the parliament (the Bloq Quebecois) has the same raison d'etre - Independence of Quebec from Canada. I do not believe that freedom of speech in the U.S.A. extends to actively agitating for secession or the overthrow of the federal government. James

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Any CPs in D.C.?
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I will be in D.C. through Saturday. I'd like to meet some Cypherpunks that feel like getting to know what Lucky looks like :-) If you are in D.C., give me a call at my hotel. (202) 682-0111 x440 --Lucky

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www.usdoj.gov http://156.46.199.41/
by jfricker＠vertexgroup.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

a mirror of the hack is at http://156.46.199.41/

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Re: PreRFD: comp.org.cypherpunks
by John Deters 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:10 PM 8/20/96 -0700, Skip wrote: >The Subject: line says it all. > >My suggestion number #1: > >No moderation. I'd vote "no" to converting this list into a newsgroup. I think universal access to e-mail is more guaranteed than access to a news-server, especially for those of us hidden away behind our Gestapo-run firewalls. The mailing list flies quite nicely through them. Plus, we have the added benefit of only getting crypto-related spam thrown at us occasionally, instead of the nearly ubiquitous "Call 1-900-HOT-4U" postings that seem to flood every Usenet group. ('Course, I seem to recall a www.slut.com letter from someone a few days ago...) Plus, sci.crypt exists for those who can't get enough here. As an aside, if an RFD should be called, to whom should we forward our discussion? (It's been many years since I really cared about Usenet.) John -- J. Deters "Captain's log, stardate 25970-point-5. I am nailed to the hull." +-------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: jad(a)dsddhc.com (work) jad(a)pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | PGP Key ID: 768 / 15FFA875 | +-------------------------------------------------------+

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[rant] Re: Spamming (Good or Bad?)
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:49 PM 8/20/96 +0000, Ross Wright wrote: >On Or About 20 Aug 96, 16:23, Jim Gillogly wrote: >> >> Vipul Ved Prakash <vipul(a)pobox.com> writes: >> >I don't know if there has been much discussion on the ethics of >> >spamming here? Is spamming free speech? >> > >> I oppose spamming because it's rude and inefficient, lowering the >> S/N everywhere it happens. Market droids > >Market Droids???? As a salesman I take offence at this slur. It is a mild term compared to some of the things that could be said about sales. I have dealt with far too many sales people. Few of them knew anything about the products that they were selling. (This is especially true of the computer field. "Do you know the difference between a computer salesman and a car salesman? The car salesman knows how to drive.") Many people have a bad view of sales. <rant> Mine is because of the times I have had to create the programs that sales had promised, but had no clue as to what could and could not be done, or was even practical. Getting time lines set by people who have no clue as to how long it will take or even if what they want is possible. (More than once I have received requests based on the pipe dreams of some idiot in sales that contained contradictory requirements and/or absurd time lines.) Most sales people do not care about what it takes to do something, all they care about is making the sale. What they tell the rube in the course of selling it does not matter. (Someone else will take care of it.) But then, rarely does truth enter into the matter of sales... Sales people have a bad reputation for a very good reason. If they actually had a basic understanding of what they were selling, and were not so untrustworthy as to not commit to things that are not deliverable, they would have that reputation. The only people I have more contempt for than salesmen are salesmen for multi-level companies. (Except maybe government officials, but that is on a case by case basis...) </rant> >> favor it because it's >> cheap, and no matter how many people they piss off bigtime, they >> make some sales. > >Even make sales to people who are pissed off at first... "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." The biggest problem I have had with spammers in the last month or so are the ones who insist on forging e-mail reply addresses. Of course, being from a sales background, they were too incompetent to cover up their tracks. (Remember: If you are going to post spam with a forged return address, DON'T do it from your own uucp address. The send path makes a great big arrow pointing back to you.) Spammers are more like the people who call you at home and try to sell you things you do not want over the phone with recorded messages. Sales on the Internet can be done and done without pissing off people. But what it takes is a shred of a clue. By violating netiquite, the spammer has shown that he lacks vital connection to anything resembling a clueserver. Furthermore, much of what is spammed is either illegal (variants on the "make money fast" idea of pyramid scheme) and/or posted to entire hierarchies of groups. (Most mail readers will not allow you to mark a message as read in all of the newsgroups it is posted to. And most of the Windows newsreader do not have killfiles or they are buggy to the point of unusability.) I certainly do not want to read this crap over and over again. It is this repeated abuse that gets spammers mailbombed, feeds killed, etc. (And I will not even go into the type of sales promoted by Canter and Siegal in their book on Internet sales. Of course, considering their background (i.e. lawyers for the Church of Scientology) it does not surprise me a whole lot...) --- Alan Olsen -- alano(a)teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises."

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No Subject
by Bovine Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The Postal service is working on a new postage method, 2 key signature, which will be unique to each "postal unit" ( stamp ) the signature will be logged when you buy the stamps....No more anon. snail mail...... Just thought you'd like to know !

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20 year key ?
by anonymous-remailer＠shell.portal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Is there such a thing as a "20 YEAR KEY " would it be a 2048 bit or larger or what ?

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Re: Husband/Wife jailed for saying Clinton Sucks
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 6:47 PM 8/21/96, Brian Davis wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 Scottauge(a)aol.com wrote: > >> Rush Limbaugh reports: >> >> That a husband and wife are being jailed for yelling to Clinton "You Suck". >> >> The Secret Service states additional words (yet un-uttered to the rest of us) >> were mentioned that they deemed threatening. > > >"I hope you die." And the couple was arrestd for disorderly conduct by >Chicago police. Any possible federal charges for threatening a president >in violation of 18 U.S.C. Section 871 await a determination of the >seriousness of the statement, in context with the wife's conduct, by >prosecutors. I predict no action. Well, I agree that saying "I hope you die" is a tad bit more serious than "You suck, and those boys died." If these additional words were spoken, why didn't the SS reveal them early on? (Or, if they did, why did the news reports not mention them?) Personally, I would never utter such words, even to Clinton. Or Dole. Tacky, even if one dislikes the Prez. But I agree that "no action" is pretty likely. "I hope you die" has been a time-honored insult at least since I was a kindergartner, and presumably for many decades prior to this. Hardly an active threat. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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