December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

PGP in UK and GAK
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Responding to msg by anonymous-remailer(a)shell.portal.com () on Sun, 10 Sep 2:8 AM [Snip] >The person who told me about this also said something >about a Department of Trade & Industry paper which >mentioned that the British Government was going to >insist on key escrow for encryption. > >Anyone else in the UK heard anything about this? Picking up the possible mandated use of key escrow in the UK: There was chat at the NIST key escrow meeting that low-bit key escrow may be the global policy in the works among governments. With a blanket outlawing of all non-escrowed systems. And, that US key escrow and 64-bit export policy is a harbinger of domestic regulation. A fed at the B-2 breakout session imperiously barked the mantra chanted by several feds at the general meeting, "64- bit encryption is what industry asked for, why are you now complaining." To the counter-question, "what industry are you referring to?" the answer was always just "industry." The USG's latest key escrow policy, the NIST meetings and the Intellectual Cryptography Insitute's conference "Global Challenges" posted here may be the surfacing of a well- orchestrated government and "industry" collusion on this issue. Note the common ever-present attendees of both NIST and the ICI meetings. Certainly, some "industry" spokespersons like "Daughter of Clipper" Denning presume by their tone of writing that key escrow is on its way to supremacy, with only quibbling left on the criteria for acceptably "competitive" variations. The NIST handouts of industry players seem to bear this out as well, even as some join the public kibitzing. Perhaps their raz, and that of BSA, is just a diverting smokescreen to induce complacency -- or squeaking wheels to get USG attention for sweetheart contracts. Maybe they've already met privately with USG reps to get rewarded with a piece of the PGP/non-escrow clamp-down biz -- more venerable suckling of national security kabooty as advised by smart-varmints like ex-NSA Mr. Stewart Abercrombie Baker, Every-meet-attending-Esq. I wonder if Mrs. Denning and Mr. Baker are advising their sweating crypto clients, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, the international escrow train is leaving the station, better get on before it's too late." While fretting of derailment by hackers, or worse, by international security agencies paranoid of gov-biz complicity to take over the "if you knew what I knew" crypto-protected cornucopia. Wonder who's really engineering this GAK Limited runaway? Does anybody know David Kahn well enough to ask what he's finding as NSA Visiting Historian -- in the archives and in the job-insecure-spook resumes heat-seeking crypto fires?

1 0

Re: The End of Politics
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Steve Schear wrote: > The End of Politics > >Every 500 years or so Western history seems to reach a turning point: the >founding of democracy (Athens, c. 500 B.C.), the death to Christ, the fall >of the Roman Empire and beginning of the Dark Ages (c. 500 A.D.), the >ascendancy of the Catholic Church and beginning to the Middle Ages (c. 1000 >A.D.) and the Renaissance (c. 1500 A.D.). ........................................................... I'm so curious to know what occasioned this burst of insight and historical perspective from you, Steve? This is because, just by coincidence, I was up into the wee hours of this morning and happened to be perusing the MS Bookshelf Chronology of History. Looking through the dates on which certain events occurred - political, scientific, artistic, etc., I also was noting the changes which took place in 500 yr (or so) measures, just for comparison. I was noting when certain changes occurred in civilization which would mark major points of (to me) "advancement". The Chronology that I was looking at is a very simplified and limited one, so my examination was constrained to the list offered. Depending on which sector of activity one is looking at, it is possible to note areas of progress, discovery, or regression. But in looking at the vocabulary, in the way which many events are described, I also noted that the terms which were used to identify things is permeated with the ideas of politics, of descriptions by reference to relative positions of control in the human context; then, as more facts about the world beyond the proximate social schemas are revealed, concepts and ideas are apprehended in a broader context, to include more extensively the other elements of the Universe, and the descriptive terms change accordingly, becoming more objective (more in terms of "things as they are", rather than so much in terms of human relationships, of comparative positions of social influence). In considering their understanding of things, it is like the expression, "to someone with a hammer everything looks like a nail". To the ancestral evolving minds, the relationships of each to others, the jockeying for the more favorable positions over each other, was paramount. As it becomes easier to pursue the curiosities of Nature, develop artistic interests, and achieve practical solutions to Life's problems, the attention transforms from those earlier concerns to a concentrated pursuit of knowledge and to an increased, augmented perspective on what is Important and what are the Real Problems (and what are the actual working solutions). Existence then takes on a different perspective - it does not seem as dangerous (other people don't seem as threatenting) when a person has achieved mastery over the elements and forces of Nature. And this difference in understanding is reflected in the vocabulary. At least, that is what occurred to me as I was looking at the historical timeline. .. Blanc

1 0

RSA lcensing costs?
by thad＠hammerhead.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam, I called RSA last week to get information on licensing Diffie-Hellmann for an videoconferencing application. They said that "They provide the BSAFE development toolkit, but don't license the technology" and gave me the number of PKP to license the technology itself. I called a Mr. Fougmer at PKP, (408 735-5893), his message says that he'll be out of town until the 18th of September, and if you want to leave a message, call back after that date. Now, I could be completely confused, it wouldn't be the first (or even the 100th) time. If you can get a standard license by using the BSAFE toolkit, and they had a standard price for that, well, I didn't give Linda De Los Reyes at RSA (415 595-8782) a chance to tell me that. thad -- Thaddeus Beier email: thad(a)hammerhead.com Technology Development vox: 408) 286-3376 Hammerhead Productions fax: 408) 292-8624

1 0

64 bit crypto
by thad＠hammerhead.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Say that we wanted to use 80 bit RC4 for our crypto application, but we were only allowed to use 64 bit crypto because we lived in some police state that enforced its wishes. Couldn't we modify RC4 easily to provide the same security against brute-force attacks by just running the key-setup phase 65536 times instead of just once? That would slow down the key-setup (on my machine) from 50,000 per second to just over 1 second, but so what? It takes ATT more than 1 second to set up a long distance call, I can wait another second to start the conversation. If our breaking of 40 bit RC4 was a one, then this 64 bit RC4-modified would be a 109,951,162,776, well beyond possibilities that I can imagine. You might say that you could save all 2^64 key tables, but that is a huge amount of data, millions of terabyte-capacity tapes. In the GAK proceedings, I have never heard of any limitation on the algorithm, just that it be public and 64 bits or less. And, of course, have GAK. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me for this kind of technical fix to be immediately outlawed by the aforementioned police state. thad -- Thaddeus Beier email: thad(a)hammerhead.com Technology Development vox: 408) 286-3376 Hammerhead Productions fax: 408) 292-8624

1 0

Re: Sigh Re: not a flame please read and think about this
by anonymous-remailer＠shell.portal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Pat F A R R E L L wrote: / Subject line is bull*&^&, IMHO, of course Hey everyone has an opinion. In message Sat, 9 Sep 1995 16:40:00 UTC, an116512(a)anon.penet.fi writes: > to make my point: why is pat farrel helping the nsa and nist make /Learn to spell my name. It is on my .sig, my keys, and in my userid. /We blockheaded, Irish Catholic Americans are damn proud of our name. /Farrell's (along with other cheap Irish labor) built the railroads /from Chicago west. Please spell it correctly, even if you are flaming me. F A R R E L L M O U S E > hey why not just write the escorw code for them!!!??? > is mr farrel just being naive or is does he realize who hes working for? > sorry to single him out but this is just an example of what im talking > about. /I doubt that this clown deserves a response, but... Then shut up. /There were a number of cypherpunks there. I can't speak for all, /but I expect movites include: /- attempting to clarify vague and confusing wording so we could /understand what they wanted. 'k /- seeing that working with them, rather than yelling at their stupidity, /has a higher chance of getting results. Beware of compromise, you become the rag puller for the rapist. / - we got to meet influential folks from industry who agree with us. 'k /- some of us aren't completely apposed to CKE. I think it has value. /If we could convert their plan for GAK into CKE, it would be a big win, /well worth the effort. Yea right. / - they are going to promulgate a FIPS PUB standard next week, whether I /like it or not, and whether I help or not. It is better to have that /standard understandable and clear than fuzzy and subject to subective /evaluation. Clear as any government forced standard can be. / - getting preposterous misstatements into the formal Federal Register so / we can quote it back to them in the congressional hearings. Mr Geoff / Greivelddinger's words should be handy to quote, for one example. 'k /- there are lots more, but I doubt that I can convince this clown. Then shut up.

4 3

Re: Hey
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

bennett_t1(a)popmail.firn.edu wrote: > > :: > Encrypted: PGP > > -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- > Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 > MessageID: yV9u2hakLFv9/SGjemJH0AuGYsBQ1cOE > > hQCMA/HAD1cfk+qpAQQAwuEDcaGfi1QCu84QklmpWe0AtyQUKGvkIuT8cEXt/ePS > G1QAGQBHNRPvsN92ORDxPY5K+JgeS4b8ZpRJ+C9pSFwtzJXyoSaPSWLVLe//GU4y > H+yeO8kMmK2qbbthgDD1D/00sXbrQsqEbIyz2al/bRIFzalS8UHQg4Olg7hTjpGl > AY608e0OyKO78dPdEGeRYH5PwW6BLgppULjR17+Puo0ukIqwcItJlYPx7K2AgNtA > 9sDlymr5h+cMky+BbrFWoi8QZEBrHvhXckXuPWHDlrmxTzd362m2R9G3/4TLlMjK > j6q2TD5DA0CT/g1ETK3J0y+7cFfuGp6oP2PhP27VCBW6maIp1Z35K3yNy7vytrTE > qDuJtcF2lvDAYKBcKr0lk6fBuGfRRZge3ZlAOgo/t5KPSGou/KlkHb2eR20vWqUM > Z2xcTkn5Y+ZJsPb/k9sOe8vKGK38IGYZdv2nj3k7MQvCIIuwAc37XIiC53mWAP8V > mIISGuYa2DgcxkdEy/rW0vd3AbhRzNGHp4u4zpjK/r2kTDGYGBURZFv2dC24KmcT > sgGYqYhYFY2/xmwiQgNKaRlMgrhRJZ8ytLxSCQts1pZhbImf2BFFBNshSIPUiZIn > 4fEPvD0lgJjC7jkkwAjEfN3E8DSCORs7GzKY1/Psr5ZZkEKVezv2blL+5YjYff+H > vfqgXkeGKOgXNUT1lNZZWA== > =wuTx > -----END PGP MESSAGE----- I find this highly unlikely. If you check the archives, you will find that this has been discussed previously on the list, and has been discounted by anyone with a modicum of reason.

1 0

Cypherpunks Purity Test
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

It seems that none of us are "pure enough" for Anonymous. In the real world, and in the world of crypto experts, programmers, and legal folks, people have real jobs. Sometimes with Microsoft, sometimes with AT&T, sometimes with the Justice Department. To exclude them from our discussions because they are not pure enough and have not done as Anonymous has (who may actually be working for anyone, of course), is self-defeating. By working for Microsfoft, Justice, or TPC, they can probably do more for "the cause" (in its many dimensions and facets) than some warez-junkie living with his parents can. Specifically, At 2:45 AM 9/10/95, Anonymous wrote: >wei dai patents algorithms - for microsoft!!!!. that should >fucking help us a lot. whos he gonna sue first? Wei Dai's work is impressive...I'm not surprised Microsoft hired him for the summer. Patents are a way of life. They may not always be, and different people have different views on them, but meaningless insults like this are a waste of our time. >according to sci.crypt mat blaze can prove that clipper has no back >door. right. that sure helps us. david sternlights new hero. If Anonymous believes this claim by Sternlight, he didn't read the rest of the discussion and he knows as much about crypto as Sternlight does. Matt Blaze made a much more finely-nuanced point about this (I wasn't at the Crypto meeting, but read his comments in sci.crypt, and they directly dispute this point by Anonymous.) >pat farrel signs up with the nsa to make the key escrow rules easier >for us morons to understand. hey thanks. maybe theyll give you a >nicer room in the concentration kamp. Pat Farrell and several other members of our list attended the NIST key escrow meeting. I would have also if I lived near D.C. Is silence the only acceptable behavior at such meetings? Perhaps Anonymous feels that even _attending_ such a meeting is disgraceful? Most of us disagree. > >a whole shitload of socalled cypherpunks jumping over each other to help and >defend him. They "defended" him in the sense that they questioned the motives (and perhaps the emotional age) of Mr. Anonymous. We on this list have had a long interest in key escrow, dating back to the first weeks of this list's existence, and 6 months prior to the public disclosure of Clipper. Much discussion of key escrow in various forms (Clipper, SKE, CKE, GAK) has occurred, and even lists of changes/improvements have been made. >brian davis trys to convinice us that key escrow isnt so bad (who signs >your paycheck davie?????) > I recall Brian Davis asking a well-formed question about whether our objections to key escrow would be lessened under various circumstances. A perfectly reasonable thing to do. Several of us responded. What this list is for. >that guy from rand corp tells us words of wisdom from robert morris the nsa guy >as if we should write them down and pray three times a day to them. > ??? This one escapes me. Robert Morris Sr. has written many interesting things. That he worked for, or still works for, the NSA is no reason to ignore what he has said. Anonymous would probably be thrown into an apoplexy were he to learn that more than one current Cypherpunk actually worked for the NSA. >carl elison designs key escrow for tis and acts like hes one of us. > He _is_ one of us. His work on commercial key escrow (CKE) is not inherently bad. After all, there are many legitimate reasons people and corporations would _choose_ (emphasis on "choose") to split keys, store them with trusted agents, etc. CKE, if done right, may be the way many of us protect ourselves, from loss of keys in various circumstances. Even protect ourselves from having to give keys to others (imagine offshore CKE depositories which have instructions on under what circumstances they will comply....). I ask Anonymou, is it better that an active researcher and developer of CKE be on this list, or that we cast him out (as if we could) and continue in ignorance? >bruce schneier is copyrighting crypt programs and >threatining to sue people who use it. > Like it or not, copyrights and patents are the way things are now being done. It sometimes takes having a patent portfolio before one can "trade" with those having other patents. Longterm, this will likely change (crypto anarchy and all that), but for now.... I'm not going to defend software patents, but insults like this, for someone who has worked so hard on crypto education, are uncalled for. >even phil zimmerman is selling the rights to pgp. what about all the >people who contributed code (like me). not a dime for us because phil is >famous >and your not alowed to say anythingn bad about him. sorry i forgot phil is god. >no one dares to complain. ask phil about me and when i asked about sharing >profits from the code i conrtibuted. also about the deal with >r.f... Now we know that Anonymous is actually a plant from the One Worlders! Insulting Saint Phil is too much. >lets get back to being punks. fuck these traitors. do crypto and fuck the nsa. > Articulate words. Or, as Anonymous woud put it: "fuck this noyze. get back to hacking commodore 64 warez. crypto rulez, d00d!" Amazing what the cloak of Anonymity brings out in people. Almost enough for me to start to believe the doubters of anonymity, the skeptics. But, with good filtering (and especially with positive reputation filtering), no big deal to send Anonymous to the oblivion he so richly deserves. I've written a lot in my time on this list, and no doubt Anonymous will find many items he thinks prove I am working for the NSA, or Chobetsu, or am an agent for the Beast. So be it. --Tim May ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

1 0

mailing list
by rwm132＠psu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

can you put me and Catch 22 on your mailing list? got any good philes philes?

1 0

Bizdos citizenship?
by Joel McNamara 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In correspondence with someone outside the US regarding ITAR regulations, the remark was made that Jim Bizdos was Greek and not a U.S. citizen. Is this statement in the same class as an Elvis sighting? Or if it is true, what impact would ITAR have on foreign nationals working for a US company involved with export restricted crypto? Please don't get carried away and turn this into a Net rumor. I'm just curious if anyone on the list can confirm or deny the citizenship comment. Joel McNamara joelm(a)eskimo.com - http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm for PGP key Thomas Jefferson used strong crypto, shouldn't you?

3 2

No Subject
by bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Steve Schear wrote: > >Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> wrote: > It may be somewhat self-serving but in light of the past few hundred years > history, few (except Italians) would see the founding of Rome as > significant as the invention of democracy. History is relative. I see neither or the these as being of as great a significance as the first time I got laid. > >or so, the death of that Jesus guy > >was a minor event (the real event was the rise of the Church, in Rome, > >during the next few centuries, > > I think you'd get some major disagreements with that one. No. No one disagrees with that one. > Many historians do not see Constantine's empire as truly the continuation > of the Roman Empire per se, but that of the church (an event which as you > point out began with Jesus). The church began with the invention of money. The papacy began with the invention of bingo. The reformation was begun by sore losers who never won anything at bingo. Jewry began with a jeweller who had agraphia. (1) (1) "I Know About All That Old Shit" by the History Guy HistoryMonger

1 0