December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

My chat with Goeff Greiveldinger
by Michael Froomkin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I will be appearing with Goeff Greiveldinger, he of the Justice Dept, at a discussion of commercial key escrow next Thursday in Bethesda. Anyone with fun questions I should throw at him should contact me... Please note that the ostensible topic of this discussion is *commerical* key escrow, not Clipper per se, so I have to be diplomatic.... A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin(a)law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | New address, but it's still just as hot here.

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Re: Netscape question transformed
by Mark Neely 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Alice de 'nonymous wrote.. >> What would you >> rather see? A company makes a beta release for people to attempt to >> break, fixes the bugs, and then releases a better product? Or would >> you rather see a company release a product, tell people it is secure, >> and then get bitten by numerous holes in it? > >Well, I'm not sure that I'd want to make any representations or imply any >warranties whatsoever. Ahhh.... this sort of thinking really lets the user down. The reason Netscape (et. al) has market capitalisation is because they sell their product to us, the users. It is a bit of a worry if software authors can write and then release for sale "buggy" software, and hide safetly behind "I make no warranties etc." To adopt an analogy... would you be happy to buy a car from Toyota (or whoever) if they were allowed to hide behind a warranty disclaiming liability should it break down (or blow up)? Somewhere along the lines, those who make their money selling software should have to be responsible for bugs. Thoughts? Mark Neely ___ Mark Neely - accessnt(a)ozemail.com.au Lawyer, Professional Cynic Author: Australian Beginner's Guide to the Internet Work-in-Progress: Australian Business Guide to the Internet WWW: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~accessnt

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Re: Weekly MixMaster list
by Daniel Miskell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What is the MixMaster list, and what is it for? Apologies on my newbie status. Munster --- _________________________________ *!Cheese Doctrine:!* Though cultured over time, and aged to perfection, one must not yield to produce mold. One must also not belittle themselves by conforming to the "whiz", but melt over the unprocessed ideas of Ghuda. _________________________________ re reported. You don't need a strong authentication technique >if a stolen card is easy to cancel. The card's easy to cancel, but the cash ain't. Credit cards are cleared with the issuer. Digital cash with smart cards acting as transaction observers don't need this. The thief need only transfer the cash from the stolen card to his own, just like he does with regular cash. >Even with a weak PIN system for authentication, you can always provide >a "duress" PIN, right? Sounds like a better choice.

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called as juror (fwd)
by rosaphil 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(Better Living Thru Better Living) *************************************************************************** * SNAIL ME + GABRIELLI'S *ZINFANDEL* (RED) & * * YER ROSEHIPS + * * IF YOU LIKED THIS POST! + *ASCENZA* (WHITE-BLEND)---YUMMY! * *************************************************************************** [Ask Fer *Gabrielli Wine* at yer local liquor store if'n ya want to tend yer rugosa] Let your voice be heard in the campaign to save the life of Mumia Abu Jamal ++++ stop de execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal ++++ ++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++ ++++ more info: http://www.xs4all.nl/tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 3 Sep 95 17:50 EST From: lindat(a)iquest.net To: news(a)aen.org Subject: called as juror From: landers(a)AZStarNet.com (L. A. ANDERSON) IF YOU'RE CALLED FOR JURY SERVICE Don't worry! Be happy! Look at jury service as an opportunity to "do good" for yourself and others. It's your chance to help the justice system deliver justice, which is absolutely essential to a free society. Also, you can do more "political good" as a juror than in practically any other way as a citizen: your vote on the verdict is also a measure of public opinion on the law itself--an opinion which our lawmakers are likely to take seriously. Short of being elected to office yourself, you may never otherwise have a more powerful impact on the rules we live by than you will as a trial juror. However, unless you are fully informed of your powers as a juror, you may be manipulated by the less powerful players in the courtroom into delivering the verdict they want, instead of what justice would require. That is why this "kit" was written--to give you information that you're not likely to receive from the attorneys, or even from the judge. _ Justice may depend upon your being chosen to serve, so here are some "words to the wise" about how to make it through voir dire, the jury selection process: You may feel that answering some of the questions asked of you would compromise your right to privacy. If you refuse to answer them, it will probably cost you your chance to serve. Likewise, if you "talk too much"--especially if you admit to knowing your rights and powers as a juror, as explained below, or that you have qualms about the law itself in the case at hand, or reveal that you're bright, educated, or are interested in serving! So, from voir dire to verdict, let your conscience be your guide. _ Nothing in the U.S. Constitution or in any Supreme Court decision requires jurors to take an oath to follow the law as the judge explains it or, for that matter, authorizes the judge to "instruct" the jury at all. Judges provide their interpretation of the law, but you may also do your own thinking. Keep in mind that no juror's oath is enforceable, and that you may regard all "instructions" as advice. _ Understanding the full context in which an illegal act was committed is essential to deciding whether the defendant acted rightly or wrongly. Strict application of the law may produce a guilty verdict, but what about justice? If the jurors agree that, beyond a reasonable doubt, the accused did act as charged, then "context becomes everything" in reaching a verdict you can live with. Credit or blame for the verdict will go to you, so be sure to ask the judge how you can pose questions to witnesses, so that you can learn the complete context, should the lawyers fail to bring it out. _ When they believe justice requires it, jurors can refuse to apply the law. Jurors have the power to consider whether the law itself is wrong (including whether it is "unconstitutional"), or is being applied for political reasons. Is the defendant being singled out as "an example" in order to demonstrate government muscle? Were the defendant's constitutional rights violated during the arrest? Much of today's "crime wave" consists of victimless crimes--crimes against the state, or "political crimes", so if you feel that a verdict of guilty would give the government too much power, or help keep a bad law alive, just remember that you can refuse to apply any law that violates your conscience. _ Prosecutors often "multiply charges" so the jury will assume the defendant "must be guilty of something". But one of the great mistakes a jury can make is to betray both truth and conscience by compromising. If you believe the defendant is not guilty of anything, then vote "not guilty" on all counts. _ You can't be punished for voting according to your conscience. Judges (and other jurors) often pressure hold-out jurors into abandoning their true feelings and voting with the majority "...to avoid the expense of a hung jury and mistrial". But you don't have to give in. Why? Because... _ Hung juries are "OKAY". If voting your conscience should lead to a hung jury, not to worry, you're doing the responsible thing. There is no requirement that you must reach a verdict. And the jury you hang may be significant as one of a series of hung juries sending messages to the legislature that the law you're working with has problems, and it's time for a change. If you want to reach consensus, however, one possible way is to remind your fellow jurors that... _ Jurors have the power to reduce charges against the defendant, provided that "lesser included offenses" exist in law (ask the judge to list and explain them, and the range of potential punishments that go with each). Finding guilt at a lower level than charged can be appropriate in cases where the defendant has indeed victimized someone, but not so seriously as the original charges would indicate. And, if it will be up to the judge to decide the sentence, it's within the power of the jury to find the defendant guilty of a reduced charge which will, at most, entail the amount of punishment it thinks is appropriate. _ The Fully Informed Jury Association (FIJA) hopes the above information helps you to find a verdict that you believe is conscientious and just, a verdict which you can therefore be proud to discuss with friends, family, legal professionals, the community or the media, should any of them want to know what happened, how, and why. If you have further questions, or want a hard copy of this article and others contained in FIJA's "Jury Power Information Kit", phone 1-800-TEL-JURY, and leave your name and address on tape. The office phone number for FIJA National HQ is 406-793-5550.

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MUZ_zle
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

10-16-95. NYPaper: "The New Watchdogs of Digital Commerce." Think of them as a truth squad of cyberspace, these crusading graduate-student hackers from Berkeley. "This is a tradition of unfettered inquiry and curiosity," said John Gilmore, "for hackers, nothing is sacred and everything is subject to verification before you can really believe it." "The hacker ethic is transferring some of its better lessons to the world of commerce," said Steven Levy, "we're groping for a way to use the Net in a way where information will flow freely and people can still make money. The hackers are going to help us find ways to have a more humanized system of commerce." "Will Netscape be the next Microsoft, or the next victim of Microsoft?" Some investors believe Netscape could become "the next Microsoft." Other people believe that Netscape could become the next Microsoft victim, and that the next Microsoft is none other than Microsoft itself. All these new features of Navigator 2.0 send a clear notice to the industry that Netscape has no interest in bowing to the traditional Internet procedures for setting software standards by academic and scientific committee. The Internet has become primarily a commercial medium, where standards are set by whoever has the highest market share. It is a concept Microsoft knows well, and one that Netscape has grasped. MUZ_zle (16 kb)

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Re: Netscape rewards are an insult
by daw＠lagos.CS.Berkeley.EDU 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <9510141153.AA16412(a)all.net>, Dr. Frederick B. Cohen <fc(a)all.net> wrote: > The idea that Netscape (like Microsoft) thinks they can get free > testing services from all over the net by real experts just by offerring > a tee shirt is down right offensive. But (amusingly enough) they can get free testing services from this aspiring student for free just by providing source code. Hey, it's fun! :-) I'm no expert, but you get what you pay for. <grin> [Psst: anyone wanna offer source code to the security modules?] I do think their ``bug bounty'' system is an improvement -- at least they're showing some concern for security, and beginning to admit that outside review of security-critical code is...well...critical. Still, I do agree that they really oughta be employing true experts to carefully evaluate their system, if they wanna claim anything about its security. - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMIGMAyoZzwIn1bdtAQG98wF9Hr8lU8nXqP50MNwO2SNhsMUg5XhzfcWg 22Tsp8OkYV3F22gUcI6Un1w7peK7ciT5 =hs1A -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: My chat with Goeff Greiveldinger
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <199510152027.NAA23085(a)mycroft.rand.org>, jim(a)acm.org (Jim Gillogly) wrote: > You might try addressing the areas of liability for escrow agents. If > private escrow agents can be sued for loss of information due to theft > or other authorized or unauthorized release of keys, their liability could > be horrendous, depending on the value of the compromised data. The problem of liability should be managable. There are commercial data storage firms (microfilm, etc.) that not only have access to the key for your data, but to the data itself. Still, liability lawsuits have not driven them out of business. I therefore belive that liability issues will not pose a significant obstacle to commercial key escrow. - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMIGMiCoZzwIn1bdtAQHiJQGAlFhXEVKkf329xCbpWHHXYRkMNJUpbdDZ nrEKcYvu9SVt/wlPLSq97sWukyQPxth0 =c5Wl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Yes, indeed the PA law is for real!
by rah＠shipwright.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>PA Senate Bill 655 was signed into law on June 13, 1995, and it does >appear to make non-logged anonymous remailers illegal. This is rich! The PA legislature just set themselves up for an anonymous e-mail shit-storm from people using *foriegn* non-logging remailers to prove their point. Hold on to your shorts, you guys at hacktic, et. al., you're gonna have some fun now... Cheers, Bob ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Shipwright Development Corporation, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA (617) 323-7923 "Reality is not optional." --Thomas Sowell >>>>Phree Phil: Email: zldf(a)clark.net http://www.netresponse.com/zldf <<<<<

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Re: Netscape rewards are an insult
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

All praise to Jeff and his fellow programmers for sharing the struggle to come up with stronger cypto, but, no praise at all to Netscape's front office guys bullshitting the stock holders and speculators. Check the press releases and the speeches to customers and investors. Scott McNealy shocked an audience into silence at a recent plush meeting of high-tech reps with investors by asking, "Anybody telling the truth here?" Then applause broke out for his shrewd beat-em-to-the-punch candor to offset the pervasive cynicism of oft-burned high-tech investors. Big bucks are not made by hard-working programmers but by the marketeers of NASDAQ and NYSE smoke and mirrors used to lure multitudes of unsavvy investors and Internet merchandisers. Netscape's leaders are protecting its major stockholding coldhearts, just like Microsoft, Intel, Motorola, AT&T, and the rest do, or they die in the financial fuck-the- public sharkpool. They couldn't care less about the bottom- of-the-ladder techies who do the grunge work, take the blame for programming mistakes produced under horrendous marketing deadlines, and then are left to commiserate with each other and gnaw knuckles. That's the joy and sorrow of this reading list, the ancient story, talented people working their asses off for sons of bitches who think employees are contemptible, disposable or bribeable for cheap change and backpats -- and easily replaceable on shore or off. Jeff's not alone in this bind.

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Netscape bugs bounty
by & E. Metzger 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am among the first people to be sarcastic about things Netscape has done (I believe I originated the joke about the extra money from the Netscape IPO being used to build a structure large enough to house Marc Andreessen's ego), but I think this sniping about the Bugs Bounty is silly. They are finally starting to try to do the right thing and take problems, especially security problems, with their software seriously and not sweep them under the rug. Cut them some slack. It might not be perfect, but they are moving in a good direction. Perry

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