December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets
by danisch＠ira.uka.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Could I publish a newspaper containing Nazi propaganda in Germany? What do you want to hear? If I say yes, then you call the german Nazis. If I say no, then we have no press freedom in your eyes. Give us a chance to have 'press freedom' *and* to protect us against Nazis. > No? > > Then everyone doesn't have the right to produce a newspaper, does > everyone? Don't mix this! Whether *everyone* has the right to produce a newspaper and whether you can print *everything* into a newspaper, are two different things. Can we allow to print everything into a newspaper? No, not everything. And I think, the law is well choosen. The important detail is, that you are not forbidden to print a newspaper before, but they can be after you *after* you have print anything bad. For example you are not allowed to call for hating other races, but this is not special for the press. This is everywhere. The limits for the press are low and they forbid themes only which are *real* criminal [at least in my oppinion]. Look at the mailbox system used by neo-nazis. We can't allow this. But if we take them their mailboxes away, everyone says "The Germans don't even allow computers". You can't have both. In the last months they found nazi-newspapers with exact descriptions of how to build bombs and lists of people to be killed for speaking against nazis. You do not expect us to accept this, do you? The restrictions against such things are not a law against the press. It is forbidden, independend whether it comes in a newspaper or whereever else. > I feel it is a fundamental right to be able to publish whatever > newspaper one would like to publish, and I say that as a Jew who lost > most of his family to Nazi murderers in the second world war. Again, I feel beeing pressed to an answer which will be wrong, whatever I answer. > Restrictions on speech ultimately backfire, providing oppressors with > mechanisms to silence opponents. Protection from Nazism must come from > strong respect for the freedom of all to express themselves and live > as they wish so long as they do not harm others, and not from > preventing the dissemination of "dangerous" ideas. Spoken well, but far away from reality. If you see 100 Nazis and 10.000 people. The 10.000 don't have a job, don't have money, don't know what to do and are not the intellectual elite. They have a lot of problems and don't know where the problems came from and how to solve them. Now come 100 Nazis and tell them, everything were the fault of ugly, stupid foreigner, which steal their jobs, rape their women and are bad by nature, they should be killed or thrown out. Now you see, that a lot of these 10.000 are going to believe this. Many of them come from the German Democratic Republic and they learned to believe everything anyone tells them. Other just want to beat anyone. Do you want to do nothing and let them continue until it is too late? Didn't we have this before? > Only when a neonazi > attempts to beat someone up or set fire to a building does his action > become the legitimate subject of prosecution. No, then it is too late. When building are burning, people die. Some turkish people died because their house was set on fire. You can't bring them back. Can't you remember what Americans told about the Germans when the two american sportsmen were beaten some months ago? > The oppression of > communication or of ideas, regardless of how repugnant, is > incompatible with a free society. A free society must be able to defend. If the target of the communication is to stop the society beeing free, a free society can't accept this. A free society must be free to *stay* free. Hadmut

3 2

beta level pgpmail.el available for ftp
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- My emacs lisp code which interfaces PGP with sendmail.el, and rmail.el (mail handleing packages in GNU Emacs) is now available for (anonymous) ftp. The URL are (I think) FTP::/ftp.markv.com/pub/pgpmail/pgpmail.el FTP::/ftp.markv.com/pub/pgpmail/pgpjm.el I concider the code to be beta level, so expect a bug or two. Read the first page of code for documentation. An undocumented function may also be of interest (but it is alpha level). If you call pgp-mail-add-hop while editing a mail message, it will add the correct gubbish to route the message through (another) CP remailer. As I did with this message. j' - -- O I am Jay Prime Positive jpp(a)markv.com 1250 bit fingerprint B06229 = B8 95 E0 AF 9A A2 CD A5 89 C9 F0 FE B4 3A 2C 3F 524 bit fingerprint 2A915D = 8A 7C B9 F2 D5 46 4D ED 66 23 F1 71 DE FF 51 48 Public keys via `finger jpp(a)markv.com', or mail to pgp-public-keys(a)pgp.mit.edu Your feedback is welcome directly or via my symbol JPP on hex(a)sea.east.sun.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQBXAgUBLVqsbNC3U5sdKpFdAQFxvwIMC09zdCWnDJkZOVhzG9l65iWHiADVwblq 4jm7gDt3Lq2rgjTrvp4n2EZQHsqbBhHGNRyzw50s21GFupVfZfaZPelK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets
by danisch＠ira.uka.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Perry E. Metzger says: > Incorrect. Those who do not understand freedom think that by > oppressing Nazis and preventing them from speaking you have somehow > protected freedom. However, in doing so, you have used the methods of > the Nazis. If a murderer tries to kill you and you have a gun, you will shoot back, I assume, even if you use the same method as him. > You can fight Naziism by spreading information about the evils of > Naziism. I wish it were true. They were trying this for many years. We all thought that Naziism will never come back because the lesson (WW II) was big enough. But it didn't work as you can see in the news magazines. What do you believe, is it a good idea to publish software like PGP if it is used by the Nazis to organize their work? > You can fight it by vigorously prosecuting those who commit > acts of violence. If you can get them... > > > I'm sure that american press freedom is not better than german ones. > > Untrue. In the U.S., I can start a newspaper without any licenses from > the Government, and I can print anything I wish in that newspaper > without fear of government prosecution. (I might be sued by a private > party for libel if I intentionally lie about someone, but thats quite > different.) In Germany, I cannot just open a newspaper and print, say, > Nazi editorials in it. Untrue. In Germany, I can do the very same. And I do not get sued by private party with lawyers who want to get some millions of dollars. And whether you are allowed to open your Nazi editorial depends on what you understand under "Nazi". In this discussion "Nazi" is everything from an idea to settings buildings on fire. If I say allow, they say I would allow killing people. If I forbid, they say I forbid to publish ideas. Tell me what is "Nazi" in your argument. > > Seen from Germany, american presidents elections look like a mixture > > of a football game and a tv show. > > Yes, but that is a statement that the press in the U.S. is bad, not > that it is unfree. Freedom and quality are orthogonal. Untrue. A press without freedom can't be good. And if your press is bad and not interested in publishing anything real, then of course you don't need to control it. But this is neither freedom nor quality. > > In Germany I can get my Cryptosoftware from whereever I want, > > Actually, you can do that here, too. We just cant send the software > overseas. I can publish everything about Cryptography and publish it everywhere over the world. I can publish newpapers with nude girls on the front. Is this possible in your country? As far as I know in your country a lot of things are controlled by religious groups. Is this freedom? Hadmut

3 2

Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets
by danisch＠ira.uka.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mike McNally writes: > Really? So your only defense against ideas you don't like is to make > the dissemination of the ideas illegal? Clearly there are values you > rate higher than press freedom. (That's not necessarily bad, though I > personally don't like it.) I never said this. Why do you think it is the only defense? Why do you all mix ideas with calls for killing people? Isn't it a difference whether I publish an idea or whether I pray killing people? Is this allowed in your country? You all seem to have a nice patent for defense against Nazis. Why don't you tell/sell us this patent? It could be very helpfull. Don't you believe that we are interested in a free press? Don't you believe that we want to fight against Naziism? How do you fight against your Nazis? > Sorry, but if you have to go to some office and ensure them you're > following the "rules of newspapers" or whatever, then that statement > is incorrect. Arrrrrghl! Stop this stupid tale! Do you want to play silly games with me? Who did you tell that you have to go to any office in germany? > I can this instant decide to print out thousands of > copies of whatever I want, drive down to some public area, and start > handing out my documents (or charging for them), all without a visit > to a government office. That's not illegal. Only "pornographic" > material is inherently illegal to distribute . Exactly the same as in Germany! Many people do this! We printed papers at the school, we print papers at the university, we do it everywhere. Print anything with your computer, go to the next copy-machine. Print as much as you can pay and carry and give it to everyone you want. It happens nearly every day. When I began to study at this university I got my half bag full of papers in the mensa every day. Meanwhile they are printing less because noone reads them all, you can't read them all, they are too many. At the first day at this university I got invitations from two groups of homosexual groups, one invitiation of the lesbians group, about 20 invitations of political groups and a lot of paper I didn't even look at. > > Seen from Germany, american presidents elections look like a mixture > > of a football game and a tv show. > > What does that have to do with press freedoms? What is the use of press freedom if the press doesn't use it? > Actually, we don't see much about German elections; there's not enough > airtime between the football games and TV shows. I'm sure you don't see much about Germany at all. Where did you get all those stories? > So can I in the US---today. The problems spring up when I try to > export what I write. Is this what you call press freedom? Hadmut

6 5

Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: host not found) (fwd)
by Grand Epopt Feotus 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You're eqipped with a hundred billion nueron brain, that's wired and fired, and it's a reality generating device, but you've got too do it. Free youself ----Tim Leary---- To: cypherpunks(a)taod.com Subject: Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets From: Grand Epopt Feotus <68954(a)brahms.udel.edu> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 17:31:50 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <9402102018.AA08946(a)deathstar.iaks.ira.uka.de> Hehe, well I can give my software to whomever I want too 8) Hmm, let's try to keep this from becoming the "This is Your Democracy Forum" and generating a "my system of govt is better than yours" cause that doesnt really accomplish much. And besides, we all know that no govt is goo govt 8) You're eqipped with a hundred billion nueron brain, that's wired and fired, and it's a reality generating device, but you've got too do it. Free youself ----Tim Leary----

1 0

Re: Commodity Jurisdiction success for Kerberos Bones!
by mcb＠net.bio.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

John Gilmore wrote (a week or so back): > Re: > REQUEST FOR COMMODITY JURISDICTION FOR: "Kerberos 900104 > bones.tar.Z patchlevel 6" software program > [...] > I encourage people and companies who are interested in export issues > to submit a commodity jurisdiction request for some software that you > want to export, and go through the process. In public. The State > Department and NSA don't publish their guidelines for what is exportable > and what isn't, so the only way we-the-public are going to find out > is by asking, and then telling each other. Are these guidelines, which are undoubtedly written down *somewhere*, exempt from disclosure under FOIA? If not, then this might be good way to go; if the claim of exemption appears weak, it may be worth litigating. Getting actual disclosure of the guidelines may be worth quite a bit, since not only does it inform us-the-public about the rules, it can make it easier to sue the government for not abiding by its own rules (if it violates them). -- Michael C. Berch mcb(a)net.bio.net / mcb(a)postmodern.com

1 0

Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets
by danisch＠ira.uka.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Perry E. Metzger says: > In the U.S., it is perfectly lawful for me to print a newspaper > ANONYMOUSLY, and sell it on streetcorners. Indeed, I may print > anything I wish anonymously, be it a book, a magazine, or a newspaper. So? If you find a paper with YOUR face, YOUR name and big letters KILL THIS MAN FOR BEING A JEW, would you think this is okay? Would you give out PGP for mailing such calls encyphered? > Do you not have to register your newspaper? No, we don't. This is not true. Who told you this tale? Is it "freedom of press" if someone tells american people that germans would have to register their newspapers? Hadmut

4 3

Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> From: danisch(a)ira.uka.de (Hadmut Danisch) >From what Hadmut says, it appears that German law is as confused as American law about whether freedom of the press means freedom of the press or not. > you are not allowed to do it anonymous. Everything must contain > an address of someone responsible. In bigger papers you have There are sometimes laws about this in the US, but if I remember correctly the courts say they are unconstitutional. They do suppress freedom of speech and press, because they impose restrictions on content, and because they make it easy for the government to find and harass writers who oppose it. > an "impressum" in small papers and pamphlets you have > a line like "responsible in the sense of press law: Joe Dalton" > And of course you will get sued or accused if you write anything > which violates law, but this depends on _what_ you are writing. In the US, you can get sued for saying untrue things about people, except public figures, but only the victim can sue. There are not supposed to be other writings which violate law, but even so they make and enforce laws against pornography, and in the past even speaking out against government policy has been made illegal (Schenck case in World War 1, writing pamphlets against the draft before there was one.) What kinds of things are illegal to write in Germany? Grundsetz > Art. 5 > (1) Jeder hat das Recht, seine Meinung in Wort, Schrift und Bild frei > zu du_ern und zu verbreiten und sich aus allgemein zugdnglichen > Quellen ungehindert zu unterrichten. Die Pressefreiheit und die > Freiheit der Berichterstattung durch Rundfunk und Film werden > gewdhrleistet. Eine Zensur findet nicht statt. > > (2) Diese Rechte finden ihre Schranken in den Vorschriften der > allgemeinen Gesetze, den gesetzlichen Bestimmungen zum Schutze der > Jugend und in dem Recht der persvnlichen Ehre. I couldn't translate (2) - does this say they can make laws to protect the young people from bad ideas and protect personal honor/reputation? [From earlier mail ] > I don't know at the moment whether it is allowed to sell "Mein Kampf", > but what is the question: One says that in Germany nobody cares > about the right-wing, the other says that you can't buy such books. > What do you expect? Shall we care or not? We can't fight again > right-wing people and sell such books! Of course you can fight against them without censorship - the weapon to use is truth, said often and loudly. If you use the violence of censorship a against themyou are using their tools and you are no better than them. You also say, by censoring books, that the common people are fools who can not tell the difference between truth and lies. > I'm sure that american press freedom is not better than german ones. > Seen from Germany, american presidents elections look like a mixture > of a football game and a tv show. Is is possible that we have different Seen from America, that's what they look like too :-) > oppinions about 'democracy' ? (I'm sure german elections don't look > better for americans...) We usually don't see German elections in US news. Sometimes stories about the rise of the right wing or Greens, and sometimes the results of the elections. > In Germany it is always surprising what american people don't > know about Germany. How many of you think that we wear > trousers of leather, eat Sauerkraut and have women with > blond plaits and name "Gretchen" all the time, not without > a "Kuckucksuhr" at the wall? When I was last there, I ate lots of Sauerkraut and beer, and there were some blond women on the S-Bahn, but nobody in Lederhosen. People did bring dogs on the train... :-)

1 0

re. Denning's Clipper defense (15.48)
by Carl Ellison 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Prof. Denning has issued a defense of the Clipper proposal (which she advocated in a CACM article long before the initiative was announced). Her specifics are easy enough to refute and I'm sure others will do so. However, she closes with an idea so radical that it shocked me. Her idea that we citizens need a security clearance in order to enter the debate over whether or not we should give up a right we've had for all time (to make, use, disseminate, ..., our own strong cryptography, interfering with the government's ability to spy on us) is so radically off base that the technical debate pales by comparison. My grade school social studies teacher is doubtless spinning in her grave. On this point, I would like to hear from newly freed members of the Eastern block. - Carl Ellison

1 0

Re: Oh No! Nazis on the Nets
by danisch＠ira.uka.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> I will indeed shoot at anyone that is trying to shoot at me. Tell me, > are the Nazis currently censoring you in Germany? Boy, what a comparison. I assume you are defending against bank robbery by taking them their money... > My point was very simple: a free > country is one in which people may speak their mind. A free country is a country where weak people can be protected before bad people with bad ideas speaking their mind. If the USA was a free country, you wouldn't have so many murders by gun. Is it an essential part of freedom to be free to attack everyone? > You cannot keep a > country free by imposing censorship; it is a contradiction in terms. You cannot keep a country free by allowing everyone doing whatever they want; this is a contradiction in terms. > > I wish it were true. They were trying this for many years. We all thought > > that Naziism will never come back because the lesson (WW II) was big enough. > > But it didn't work as you can see in the news magazines. > > Using your own criterion, the censorship hasn't worked either. We DO NOT HAVE CENSORSHIP!!! (How many times do I have to repeat?) "Let them do what they want" didn't work. > > If you can get them... > > One has no choice but to try. Don't you believe that we are trying? Do you think we are stupid? > Are you telling me that if I were to write in a newspaper "all Turks > should be killed" that this would be legal under German law? I was > under the impression that you cannot. It is illegal, because it is "Anstiftung zum Mord", instigation for murder. This has nothing to do with press. Do you want to tell me that this is allowed in the USA? Do you want to tell me this is good? > Then by definition yours cannot be good, because yours is unfree. Your are talking the hole time about things you don't know. What pieces of german press did you read? > Yes. In fact, many magazines are published with nude women in front. > You may have difficulty finding places willing to sell them, however. Isn't this a kind of censorship? Is this "can publish whatever I want"? Hadmut

2 1