December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 19:34:29 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: Re: A question about gas warfare in San Fran in '66... > I assume that this is one of these anonymous source things. =20 Actualy no, Alex was showing some documents with government seals and such. I haven't had a chance to contact him so far but intend to. The only way I have of getting a hold of him is to call his talk show or his access tv show. His next access show is tomorrow (Tue.) nite. The gist was that some group within the US gov. did a test in some area of San Fran. and several deaths occurred. It wasn't done with the knowledge or permission of the Cali. or San Fran. officials as described by Alex to date. As I find more info I'll pass it along. [bunch of other peripheral drivel deleted] ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
by Kawika Daguio 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Bob, The syllogism at the end of your post is exactly why I have spent the last more than 5 years negotiating and lobbying and why we (FI's) and you (everyone else) shouldn't worry about the impact of government policy on the security of financial communications. Market (macro and microeconomics plays a bigger role than the government. I wouldn't give up my citizenship, neither would I join those guys at the Fort and give up my rights to move about the world without asking permission to travel or publish. I like the balance where I am, but respect those who wish to protest peacefully. I would prefer that folks kept us out of their fields of fire in the various skirmishes occuring during the cryptocrusades and left us to manage the policy for and the security of our space for ourselves and our customers. just my personal views...kawika... <<< Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> 9/ 7 5:29p >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 3:38 PM -0400 on 9/7/98, Robert Hettinga wrote about Ryan Lackey's whereabouts, on cypherpunks: > If I told you, I would have to kill you? Whew. Glad Ryan has now said something publically now about his and Ian's bit of extraterritorial subtrifuge (though Ian doesn't qualify, of course). I mean, I just *hate* keeping secrets... ;-). Frankly, I *really* have a hard time with all this man-without-a-first-world-country, crypto-expat stuff. I think making the technology not eonomically optional is the way to change things, and no amount of romantic, jurisdiction-shopping "regulatory arbitrage" is going to alter reality all that much. But, I guess, Anguilla's as nice a place to have this affliction as any I can think of. And, I wish Vince -- and now, apparently, Ryan -- good luck, whatever happens. Yet, for some reason, memories of Vietnam-era draft-dodgers keep coming to mind. For what it cost them all personally, not much good came of it, I'd say, for them or anyone else. The people who protested the war and "fought the good fight" to end it stayed here to do it, after all. The most potent anti-war activists were Vietnam vets themselves, for that matter. And, of course, Ridgeway told Eisenhower at the outset that Vietnam was a multi-million-man war, and Eisenhower stayed out accordingly, throwing a few marginal people on the ground to shut Lodge up. It took Testosterone Jack to get a Special-Forces hard-on. Eventually he and Desktop Lyndon ended up screwing a pooch instead of the commies. Do people out there really think somebody like Gore's going to do a crypto-amnesty someday? I didn't think so. Ashcroft, maybe, but don't hold your breath, there, either. It'll be decades, I bet, and our "boys over there" will have grey hair long before they do come back home on this one. Political inertia is probably going to keep a few people we know outside the fence, looking in, for an awful long time after the issue's utterly dead. I expect people who do this crypto-expat stuff are going to get their new passports refused at the U.S. border when they visit, and I think that things are going to get worse for them for a long time before they get better. Of course, there's a fair argument to be made that if they do get refused, it's probably time to leave, anyway, but I'll let someone else gnaw that bone. And, frankly, I *do* expect that the FBI will attempt domestic crypto controls, just like they've been been trying to do for some time now. But, unlike a lot of people, I think that the marketplace will steamroller all such silliness into yet another roadtop attraction, before or after its legislation. Anyway, as the old "excrable" e$yllogism goes, Digital commerce is financial cryptography. Financial cryptography is strong cryptography. Therefore, if there's no strong cryptography, there's no digital commerce. So, call me an optimist. Like I've said before, I've heard the end of life and liberty as we know it predicted over and over again -- hell, I've even believed so myself, once or twice -- but, like the Gibbon quote in my .sig goes, "however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity", I ain't seen it happen yet. Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.5 iQEVAwUBNfRQJMUCGwxmWcHhAQHb7gf ImnoGG28coDgde4cDgnwHyQatO78nY4B 9bMfB9bE1FCqAIZNKfrPzqhJpZzCbYEDYQexXe8bRsl32M7FnIye7w4r7kxeXxns LbLWY83juOAJNgMhPxPhFVcXb8NqwOQzCnYjLdfKSuJ6/lZuNGvsVohHwYuhNxc9 WlOW1WsqeSl3KyzpdDyZU1jAUvNEJQU9JoeeEvlwFNM7zMW3ZoIQB5SSVLf2HYzX vtpnZiRsOeSXt0sWmlXHiZ DeB 79z1z157cg/AOn/qAGBLBgZuDp dbRH7B4ynR ngB6XS irSzNnMWQrVdNYPuRPRRQ h/eV US2Cmjc3uuFcnR/ tnNg== =0UKh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to "dcsb-request(a)ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

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by dietpatches＠bigfoot.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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by joe＠printing.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Citizenship silliness. Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
by Black Unicorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:24 PM 9/7/98 , Kawika Daguio wrote: >Bob, > >The syllogism at the end of your post is exactly why I have spent the last >more than 5 years negotiating and lobbying and why we (FI's) and you >(everyone else) shouldn't worry about the impact of government policy on the >security of financial communications. Market (macro and microeconomics >plays a bigger role than the government. So that explains why the U.S. price for e.g., sugar, has exceed the world price for sugar by 20-30% to as much as 50% for something like 20 years, right? Because government efforts at manipulating prices and policies are useless? This is, of course, but a single example. Mr. Hettinga comments: >Do people out there really think somebody like Gore's going to do a crypto-amnesty someday? Please. Revoking one's citizenship, particularly for a better option- of which there are many- is hardly the end of the world, and is unlikely to make one a felon. It will, in fact, prevent one from becoming one in this case which is, of course, the point. Using terms like "Crypto-amnesty" is just inflammatory. Mr. Hettinga further comments: >I expect people who do this crypto-expat stuff are going to get their >new passports refused at the U.S. border when they visit, and I think that >things are going to get worse for them for a long time before they get better. Of course, this is nonsense. I know several major U.S. tax offenders who have several million in liens and civil judgements who return to the United States on a regular basis, they just don't maintain assets there. Further, one of them just recently renewed his U.S. passport at the U.S. consulate without incident. Bottom line: People don't become criminals in the United States because they leave it. Consider the ramifications of turning people away at the border because they are engaged in completely legitimate commercial practices abroad which are, none the less, undesirable in the United States? Christ, the U.S. can't even turn away well known but unconvicted French Economic Intelligence experts at the border. I am constantly amused at the attitude of Americans who are convinced that anyone who lives outside of the "end-all-be-all of the civilized world" must live in some third world country. This too is nonsense. If I were jurisdiction shopping I'm not sure I'd pick a small African nation, as some others have, because this state would be extremely unlikely to protect me from the kind of nastiness that nations are expected to protect citizens from. Also, visa-free travel is a pretty big consideration. Picking a country not well established in this regard is folly. Cryptography is the cutting edge of many things, but that situation is quickly wavering. It's not long before being a cryptographer is even less profitable than it is today. If plying your trade is important, waiting around for "market forces" to convince the FBI that they have it all wrong is probably not a good strategy. Incidentally, if anyone needs assistance contacting the best migration consultants around, I'd be happy to give you my views and make referrals. Some of you who want a counterpoint based on something a bit more substantial than provincial fear mongering might ask after Tim May, who I recall considered departing the United States but decided against it for a variety of reasons.

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Auto Reply to your message ...
by promo＠printing.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Child-Molesting Forger's Chilling Confession!!!1!
by your name 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Seed to clone himself, one way or another [CNN]
by Albert P. Franco, II 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From: Jim Choate <ravage(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com> > >Hi, > >It seems that scientist in general may soon be forced to roam from country >to country to practice their work. > >Shades of Neuromancer. I am more and more convinced that Gibson's book, and >it's social commentary, is right on the mark. > >Forwarded message: > >> X-within-URL: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9809/07/clone.seed.ap/ > >> CHICAGO PHYSICIST SAYS HE'LL CLONE HIMSELF WITH WIFE'S HELP >> >> Dr. Richard Seed Richard Seed September 7, 1998 >> Web posted at: 3:50 a.m. EDT (0750 GMT) >> >> BOSTON (AP) -- A physicist with three Harvard degrees but no medical >> license said he is ready to begin the first step toward immortality: >> he will clone himself. > >[text deleted] > >> Seed has said that if Congress bans cloning, he will move his >> operation to Tijuana, Mexico. > But if the feds pull similar bullshit as with crypto work he'll have to give up US citizenship to do the work. The regs for crypto appear to make it such that even if I live permanently outside the US I can not work on or produce crypto related products even if they are based on non-US technologies. It seems that being a citizen of the US is less and less attractive every day... Albert P. Franco, II

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17 Dec '03

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17 Dec '03

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