December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Title VII v. Liberty
by Matthew J Miszewski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Granted I deleted about 1000 messages before starting to follow the thread (tangental at best to crypto...) but... Title VII of the CRA covers the already illegal actions of Tim's hypothetical firm refusing to hire Blacks. Granted Tim firmly believes this kind of law is a bad idea, but nonetheless it is the law. To avoid the flame, yes I am wel versed in Libertarian ideals, save it, i already subscribe. As to sexual orientation, um no federal law protects the class. And yet magic- ally, massive discrimination exists. This is a natural result of the condition of falesly free markets. To those involved with Libertarian causes, a free market player in this example would openly admit that th basis of orientation, but they dont. They also hide their racist activities. I in no way suggest all corp's are involved in this activity but if you deny it exists Id like to live in your world. Sometimes intervention works. Granted, usually it does not. But removing the regs now would work to do one thing - perpetuate the past effects of discriminatory intent in today's world. Flame on! - Matt ______________________________________________________________________________ In defense of liberty, encrypt for all purposes, civil and professional. In defense of privacy, encrypt all correspondence, personal and professional. In defense of sanity, do not encrypt your dry cleaning invoice! ++++++++--------mjmiski(a)macc.wisc.edu (c)1993

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Re: AIDS testing and privacy
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:41 AM 9/8/94 -0700, Doug Cutrell wrote: >In a fundamental situation of conflict between two entities, I agree that >"anything goes", in the spirit of voluntary interactions between two >entities. In the case of a conflict between a small number of large, >powerful entities (corporate employers) and a vast number of small, >powerless entities (the employment pool), I don't see how you can argue >that this vast horde should not team up and utilize whatever means to >achieve an advantage over the few in power. You mean mass executions of "corporate officers" for example if the 'peepul' felt like it. Last time I looked there were millions of employers (not a small number) and the average size of companies was declining. >Today and in the future, "power" may reside increasingly in economic >positioning. Thus, the power of the many individuals vs. the power of the >few corporate entities may derive largely from their collective voice in >the social conventions of society at large, which ultimately derives power >from the tax base of the society at large. You seem to think that the power of corporations -- which consists in the cases cited merely of refusing to hire or deal with certain people -- is the same as the power of a "democratically appointed" armed force. This armed force is to bash down doors to force these evil corporations into an association with people they would rather not associate with. In other words non-violent "refusal to deal" by corporations is *evil* while armed breaches of the peace by law enforcement (including shooting resisters) is *good*. Not a very "humanistic" perspective. Note too that anti-discrimination laws also punish small powerless entities (individuals) who discriminate not just massive corporations. And what law protects those who the "peepul/government" don't like from discrimination. As a member of a hated minority (crypto anarchists) I'd rather take my chances on an open market than risk official discrimination by the state. Mercifully, the technology we are developing will allow everyone who cares to to decline to participate in this coercive allocation of power. DCF

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Mandated Forfeiture
by blancw＠pylon.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Responding to msgs by: Jim Hart: Thus, the upshot of these so-called "privacy" regulations is to destroy our last shreds of privacy against government, and calm us into blindly getting even more of the details of our personal lives into the mainframes of the major government agencies and credit reporting agenices........ Timothy C. May: . . . . Suffice it to say that our credential-happy society is getting very little real benefit for demanding credentials at every turn and is instead providing precise dossier material for those who keep dossiers. ................................................................. ..... The regulations regarding privacy and the demands for them by the 'credential-happy' society leaves me with the impression that this phenomena has the role of acting as substitute for something, as any time that the voting public makes demands from the big G it indicates a need to compensate for a sense of inadequacy relative to some area of their social co-existence. In this case it is as though the demand for personal information & credentials replaces sensitivity to, & understanding of, human nature. As services become more automated the opportunity for human contact is diminished, while the need to certify the verity of remote data becomes more critical. When the information has been centralized, it has the effect of displacing personal responsibility away from the individual up to the State, as the State becomes the official keeper of the data. And how else could the governors be expected to fulfill their obligation of keeping the peace and general welfare, if they cannot gather & keep information on all their remote & moving targets? When the centralized databank gatherers have the required info, then the general populace expects to feel safe that everyone can be dealt with - by their Official Caretakers, sinced it cannot be done by themselves. ("I don't know you, but I can still keep track of you and therefore keep you under control, if you get out of hand.") These things self-perpetuate: the more that one group gives it up, the more that the other takes it up & away; the more inadequate that those who abdicate from responsibility feel, the more they look to their governors to substitute their overriding supervisory powers. The less that the governed exercise their abilities to know themselves and each other, the less capable they become in the art of doing so, and the more convinced they become of the necessity for mandated forfeiture of personal data. When you don't live by reason, you must live by recourse to coercion. Blanc

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Kindness & the Voting Public
by blancw＠pylon.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Responding to msg by Doug Cutrell: In the real world, the voting public is not required to be kind to the hospital or the company, either. If a large political block can put into place structures (laws and enforcement) which effectively provide coercion against such denials of service, this is fair play as well. ................................................................. All's fair in love and war. But how many of the voting public does it take to squeeze blood out of a turnip? (i.e. create something from nothing?) Before the voting public which bands together can coerce a service out of some corporate entity, there must first be a Provider in existence. This Provider most probably would not have materialized miraculously out of the good intentions of the State but would had to go through all the time and trouble of gathering the ideas, the resources, and the manpower to make their services available to customers. Once the corporation, that enterprise, that commerical entity, had been created and constructed - once the building was in place, the system set up along with the required equipment, and all of the administrative functions had been set in motion, *then* the voting public would have an object for their attention; they could come together and attempt to take over the operation and coerce the Provider into delivering the benefits indiscriminately to everyone. They could probably even conspire to have this service for free. They might even succeed in accomplishing it, and maybe it would work for a bit. But I don't know how long Providers could survive without remuneration, in the real world, nor how long they would tolerate the image of themselves as Slaves to the Voting Public. Blanc

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The only? CRS cypberpunk?
by dave.hodgins＠canrem.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Am I the only subscriber of crs, that is interested in privacy? Over the last few months, when the addressee list got wiped, I seemed to be the only person complaining, about the lack of message traffic. (Thanks to the volume of the conferences I pick up, it took me over a week to notice the first time the list got wiped). I've made a point of uploading privacy orientated software, such as the latest versions of pgp, sfs, secure drive, secure device, to crs, when I've found such things, primarily through this list. Am I the only person on crs (currently advertised as around 9,500 subscribers), who is interested in privacy? If there are lurkers here, from crs, who would like me to continue to monitor for new software, and obtain/upload the software to crs, please let me know. Regards, Dave Hodgins, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. --- * RM 1.3 00820 * Internet:Dave.Hodgins@Canrem.com Rime->118 Fido(1:229/15)

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ANNOUNCE: September meeting is Third Annual Cypherpunks Conference
by hughes＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ANNOUNCEMENT ============ What: The Grotesquely Overnamed Third Annual Cypherpunks Conference When: Saturday, September 10, 1994 12:00 noon - 6:00 p.m. PDT Where: Silicon Graphics, Cafe Iris In the annual tradition of overblown announcements of the September Meeting, this greeting invites you to the Third Annual Cypherpunks Conference, Worldwide Media Event, Gala Schmooze Festival, and Anarchic Capitalist Celebration Banquet, all to be held at the usual date, the second Saturday of the month, at noon. Featured will be an overview of CRYPTO '94 with lots of good results including an experimentally attained known plaintext attack on DES, cryptanalysis of a chaos-linked telephone scrambler, and new and unproven hash functions. Join us! Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Thanks to Katy Kislitzin for directions--EH] DIRECTIONS: Silicon Graphics, Inc. Building 5 (SGI Cafeteria) 2025 North Shoreline Boulevard Mountain View, CA >From 101 take Shoreline East. This is towards Shoreline Amphitheatre. It's also "logical east", and points more north that east. (That is, it's east with respect to 101 North, which points west near the exit.) If you're coming in on 101 South, you'll cross over the bridge. Continue on Shoreline and go past a whole bunch of other SGI buildings. Turn right onto Steirlin Court at the big red metal sculpture. There will be even more SGI buildings surrounding you--take note of the building numbers. Go almost to the end of this street. Building 5 is on the right.

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Re: AIDs testing and privacy
by andreas.elbert＠gmd.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> After a few weeks, you call a 1-800 number, punch in your code >> (from the sticker) and you get a recording telling you if the test >> was negative. Or: After a few weeks, you tune into the evening news, and after the weather forecast, your code is broadcast (or not). i've heard this of Petersburg in GUSland. (do they have freephone numbers there ?)

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Re: CONTROL FREAKS (nee, AIDs testing and privacy)
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>But it is also the case that industrial countries, when they fall on hard >times tend to fall back on an authoritarian "bread and circuses" approach to >governing. Fascism in 1930's Germany was one such govenment. The current >government was unable to deal with the financial and social problems and so >reactionary elements were able to seize control of the government and impose >their own brand of totalitarianism. Few note how much the world has changed since the 1930s, however. In order to be able to pay its secret police and welfare clients, the US government has to borrow about $12 Billion a *day* (averaging National Debt financing over time). In addition, the economy is depedent on quite a bit of domestic and foreign investment. A totalitarian takeover here would make financing this debt very difficult and cause capital outflows on a scale never before seen in human history. As James Carvil (sp?) (Slick Willie's campaign manager) says - "When I die, I want to be reincarnated as the Bond Market so everyone would be afraid of me." DCF Hillary to Bill: "Why don't you play a game of solitaire?"

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CONTROL FREAKS
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Alan Olsen still thinks totalitarians can succeed in industrial countries. He wrote: ... But it is also the case that industrial countries, when they fall on hard times tend to fall back on an authoritarian "bread and circuses" approach to governing. Examples, please. Fascism in 1930's Germany was certainly NOT one such government. National Socialism, of course, had its "bread" aspect, but their were no "circuses" in the Roman sense. While Bread and Circuses is one technique to keep a population in line, it is quite separate from the military/police state method chosen by the NAZIs. In any event, NAZI Germany supports the proposition that modern totalitarianism, by its nature, must be short lived. How long did the "Thousand Year Reich" last? ... We have the control freaks just wating to gain the power and more waiting in the wings. They have the money and they have the technology.... "They," again? I thought it might be "them." The Illuminati, right? Or is it the Trilateral Commission, the Jesuits, or the CIA? Who are these control freaks who "have the money and ... the technology"? Jeez, and some call me paranoid for being a privacy advocate. When I wrote, "There will be some temporary, local setbacks in the coming years, and have some mopping up to do, but we've already won." Alan responded: Don't be too smug yet... There are people in power who have not figured out that totalitarian states cannot survive.... Logic and reason have nothing to do with the "thought patterns" of these people. Roadrunner logic. Wiley Coyote runs over the edge of a cliff. Miraculously, he is suspended in the air until he makes the mistake of looking down. Only when he becomes aware of his predicament does he fall. My point still is, the totalitarians don't have to figure out anything; their "thought patterns" are irrelevant; reality still rules. They will not survive. Besides, it is not their money they are spending on this. It is yours. Are you sure they're spending *my* money? With each advance in privacy technology, they have less access to *anyone's* money. As far as I have been able to determine, the only thing that you can do with a control freak is to kill him before he obtains any position of power. (Or wrap him in duct tape and feed him lots of Thorazine(tm).) Or, with a little ingenuity, you could structure your life so you could just ignore him. Living well is the best revenge. S a n d y "Who finds he needs to spend far less time fighting the Great Enemy, than educating the nattering nabobs of negativism." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Privacy 101 digest on WWW
by paul＠poboy.b17c.ingr.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- With permission, I am automatically digestifying and archiving the "Privacy 101" seminar & teach-in that Duncan Frissell and Sandy Sandfort are offering and making the digest available via WWW. To reach the WWW digest, point your browser at http://www.iquest.com/~fairgate/privacy/index.html. - -Paul - -- Paul Robichaux, KD4JZG | Demand that your elected reps support the perobich(a)ingr.com | Constitution, the whole Constitution, and Not speaking for Intergraph. | nothing but the Constitution. ### http://www.intergraph.com ### -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLnBu0afb4pLe9tolAQGLlwP9El77wi7RoDBGbHVxH0de3RMKY2JbnvOi 17EwaltSp2DWwZ/QZd5vK5Lc2ClIYJsXTZ1rr4LrDXXs7lF8mKJqFoLSwerRADGH giJdWSzqm5I+hAP/XrbwiuwG9IU6oLeLP/rox+M2snb5J2elSWh42/84AuuKwOpX eJmeBe8b4RU= =rkjR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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