December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: ecash Press Release
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> DIGICASH PRESS RELEASE I have a gut feel that this DigiCash(TM) system is going to become a *really big deal*. Real electronic cash, portable software-only solution, free client-side software: sounds like a winning combination. I'm excited. Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

4 6

Quantum Computers
by kkirksey＠world.std.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I graduated a couple of years ago, and I haven't been keeping up with the academic literature in Comp Sci. very well since, so I'm kind of lost in the discussion on quantum computers and cryptography. Can anyone give me the Reader's Digest Condensed Version (TM) of the theory behind quantum computers, or maybe point me to a good journal article or two? Many thanks, Ken ============================================================================= Ken Kirksey kkirksey(a)world.std.com Mac Guru & Developer - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The path of my life is strewn with cow pats from the devil's own satanic herd! -Edmund Blackadder -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a iQCVAgUBLeYDf+sZNYlu+zuBAQF/wgP+Kbg03qEA8Gdj3k7tncTSAOy3UUE21VMT Dgg7FcAjYLNNFZxlKf1nsHKYv2fnjMGOXv9qB5yvG4g6m4nEcCpBoj/43C61nKHL mFQ3Uow8y7Qxk9YlKZXH3Mg6zPpKG9cOmdaqCvENjyq30zlsAGfq2D6ejqaZj6cT iA1OJk0hPg0= =XYS1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Ecash w/ offshore bank clearing house
by Gary Jeffers 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ECASH WITH OFFSHORE BANK CLEARING HOUSE To my question "Could this be a State Killer", Perry Metzger replies that no single tool other than atomics could kill a state. Possibly, I should have stated the question as "Could Chaum's ecash with offshore banking be the straw that breaks the state camel's back?" Private guns along with electronic privacy tools such as anonymous reputations, PGP, anonymous remailers, etc. are already at large. These tools are syner- getic as well as cumulative. At some time we will hit a schelling point. Possibly, with Chaum's ecash we already have the tools. The Soviet Union is a good example of a state that was destroyed by its inability to control its economy. Viet Nam is a good example of a "Socialist" state that due to its internal problems largely allows its people make their own economic arrangements. Privacy technology does not necessarily have to destroy a state. To make the state an ineffective fool would make a happy situation. Incidentally, a new thought occurs to me. Why not one of the old ex Soviet states as an offshore bank acting as a clearing house for Chaum's ecash. A tax haven - offshore banking country with nuclear ICBM's to defend itself & its industry would be nice. :-) Yours Truly, Gary Jeffers

1 0

Re: (fwd) Re: NSA Helped Yeltsin Foil 1991 Coup
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

: It describes how Bush passed on transcripts of encrypted conversations : between the leaders of 1991's failed Soviet coup to Boris Yeltsin. : "As soon as the coup started on 18 August, 1991, the NSA, : America's largest intelligence organization was able to decrypt : conversations between the coup's two leaders, Vladimir Kryuchkov, How does the author of the article know that the NSA *decrypted* the conversations? For all we know, the NSA learned of the coup from stratigically placed bugs or other mundane technology. Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

1 0

Unicorn suit
by peace＠BIX.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ciber city> Despite your protestation, "I also don't like to be a bully", it seems to me that your pursuit of this case was predicated on your ability to be a bully and an insider. unicorn>This is often the case with lawsuit and any human endeavor. I'm sorry everyone isn't on equal ground in the world. I personally prefer the ability to resort to a civil system of litigation than to have some highly institutionalized, standardized, process that could only be provided by big government. At what price equality? I sometimes find it difficult to agree with Tim May and his anarchist tendencies, but you, Unicorn, have made me wish for exactly that. How can anyone be in favor of big government and crypto privacy. This makes you sound like a hypocrite! It seems that Detwiler, and his tentacles, have performed a valued, if labored, service here. Anonymity may have its uses, but it has abuses as well. It is not the least bit clear from his posting whether Unicorn supports anonymity or not. Neither is it clear whether any of the rest of the punks really support anonymity. Peace

3 2

Re: Unicorn vs....
by tim werner 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From: lefty(a)apple.com (Lefty) >Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com > >>In the discussions of what is or is not an "anarchist", aside from the >>obvious "Anarchist Cookbook" (couldn't resist), is there an official >>Anarchist codicil? What makes one an official anarchist? > > [stuff deleted] > >In a month or so, the Board of Elections sends you back a card showing you >to be a registered Anarchist. Of course, you don't get to vote in the >primaries... We get to vote on other issues besides candidates in primary elections in Ohio. This is their chance to get taxes passed that failed during the last general election. I used to skip the primaries, until I realized this. I used to think they were voting on whether to place the tax on the ballot in November, or something. tw

1 0

Re: Unicorn suit
by tcmay＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

[This note was written in response to a note from Black Unicorn to me. He suggested at the end that I could copy the Cypherpunks list on it, so I have done so. However, I've deleted some of his points, and since he did not post his note to the list, some context may be unclear. That's life.] I'm responding, but only to a few points. Thanks for your comments. I won't repeat my points, so no comment just means that. > I thought I would reply in person, and off the list because your's is an > opinion which in my mind carries with it a great deal of forethough and > is deserving of much respect. Feel free to post your response (what I'm replying to here) to the list as a whole. Yes, it's long. But it's of more relevance to our world than most of the stuff that gets posted, especially the endless forwardings of Chaum's announcement, for example. > I feel we are in many ways alike in the way we approach problems (I hope > you will take this as a compliment :) ) and in some ways we are akin in > politics. Maybe yes, maybe no. I have no hesitation in advocating the collapse of central governments, as you know. Central governments of both the left and the right have killed hundreds of millions of people, so the "dangers" of anarchy look comparatively mild to me. > I doubt even tmp is "entirely" anonymous. Anyone with a reputation is to > some degree non-anonymous. Of course we all know who he is, for many reasons. > I post anonymously to keep my real name out of common circulation. This > is particularly true of the "scholarly" postings I make. I do not want > these attributed to me in the circles in which I travel. At the same > time, I take a casual approach to my identity. There are those on the > list who know me in person, and I don't feel threatened by this. It is > merely a buffer for an entirely seperate set of endeavors (business v. > academic pleasure if you like). I have never made extreme efforts to > remain entirely unassociated with my real name to friends. Such is not > the case to business associates. If enough people know that Black Unicorn = Fritz Foobar, then the linkage can be made and the "damage" done. As others have said, you apparently have some uptight customers. That's not my problem, or anyone else's who makes the normal kind of comments on the Net. (Tmp goes beyond normal, but if your lawsuit was centered around the "damages" aspect, then potentially nearly any of our opinions could be "damaging" because of your overly sensitive European customers. That's not right.) > In my case an old law school classmate of mine asked for my help on the > net. (Usenet in particular, along with PGP). Clearly this fell under > the "personal relationship" which my anonymous posting was never intended > to protect against. > > After watching the posting war between myself and tmp, said friend faxed > copies (unwittingly with newsprint looking text) with attributation to > make the reference clear to a mutual associate who unfortunately tended more > to the "business" side of relationships. I'd say you have some sleazy friends, then. For them to fax off copies of what they think of as rants is bad enough, but for one of your contacts to then "alert" the others is mind-boggling. > > Black Unicorn has certainly made postings that I think are strongly in > > line with the ideas I call "crypto anarchist." Does my saying this > > constitute some kind of libel on Black Unicorn, should this posting > > somehow make it back to the Black Forest or someplace like that? > > No. You are speaking a truth. My ideas do fall in line with your > definition of cryptoanarchy. They do not however make me a radical > anarchist bent on the destruction of nations as tmp alleged. Tmp was just using a label. I'll admit the semi-forgery was not kosher, though these semi-forgeries are transparent to anyone who looks at the headers. But calling you an anarchist bent on the destruction of nations is acceptable characterization in a political debate. If I say Bill Clinton wants to destroy the health care system, this is normal political rhetoric. If Detweiler calls me a Satanist, so what? ("What if your customers were Moral Majority Christians?" you might ask. Then I'd say that all one has to do is tell one's customers the truth. Under no circumstances can the 'damage" caused by tmp's kind of free spech be considered assault. I'm a free speech absolutist. That the comments tmp made came in a heated forum for such political debate makes it all the more wrong for a lawsuit.) > I've been on the list for some time now, lurking then posting when I had > a feel for who read it, and where it went. I never felt threatened by my > presence on the list, and never did it occur to me that anyone on the > list could or would "out" me to my business associates. Even if they do, so what? Not to sound angry here, but suppose I speculated that Black Unicorn = Fritz Foobar? Would the "damage" that ensued be my fault? I just don't get it. That the Cypherpunks list is not public--except when it gets gatewayed to Usenet, as has happened a few times--is little protection. If I cite your views--but don't quote them verbatim--in a forum where your Swiss customers see them somehwo, have *I* committed a crime or tort? Not in my view, though the law may think so. (I still say it's free speech, even if "damaging." Many things are damaging...negative book reviews, unflattering opinions, etc. Sadly, the American legal sytem is moving toward allowing these "damages" to be the basis for suits.) > rumor mill this is not the case. I would not be HAPPY if my business > associates saw my posts on cypherpunks, but I would be (and was) much more > upset if they saw only the accusatory rants of tmp. The proper and normal response to accusatory rants is to answer them. Are you calling for limits on "accusatory rants"? The Founding Fathers would not be amused. > The real difficulty in these affairs is that not to file a suit is often > more damning than anything. I think your reputation would have no lasting damage done to it by ordinary speech. Even so, Detweiler's rants are clearly broad-brushed insults, which courts should not regulate. Your uptight Swiss clients should be taught not be believe everything they read. > > A settlement is vindication enough in my case. > Except that Detweiler's "apology" was obvious satire, almost identical to the "apology" he posted to the Cypherpunks last December. He is likely now planning a much more massive assault on you and his other perceived enemies....a campaign of fabricating quotes, arguing with himself via different pseudonyms, etc. And now that he knows your uptight Swiss customers are so sensitive, he will probably try to find ways to let them know about your "anarchist" leanings. If he's as smart as I think he is, he'll use the network of remailers. He'll also try to fabricate quotes that make you seem like a truly vicious money launderer, perhaps with insinuations that your furniture business is a cover for drug trafficking. (If I were Detweiler, licking my wounds, plotting revenge, that's what I'd do.) If this happens, as I predict it will, your recourse will be to either try to force the remailer operators to produce the logs (so you'll have somebody to sue), to sue the remailer operators per se (which will become a test of common carriage, unless they back down), or--best of all--to tell your Swiss customers that bizarre rants are the outcome of a society which tolerates free speeech and that they should ignore all posts allegedly written by you unless the posts are coming from your site, or, better, have been digitally signed by you. As Nat Henthoff says, "sunlight is the best disinfectant." > > I know often you do not respond to mail.... I hope you will drop me a > note on this one however. > > Also feel free to post this mail to the list if you like. The only reason I > didn't cc: it was to the extent that my reply sounded like a personal > discussion. OK, I just saw your last paragraph as I was wrapping this up. I'll add the Cypherpunks list to the distribution. It may be long, but these issues are at least as important as much of what gets posted. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

4 6

Re: Unicorn vs....
by lefty＠apple.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>>In a month or so, the Board of Elections sends you back a card showing you >>to be a registered Anarchist. Of course, you don't get to vote in the >>primaries... > >We get to vote on other issues besides candidates in primary elections in >Ohio. This is their chance to get taxes passed that failed during the last >general election. As do we. I can vote on those; it's just that anarchists don't run primary candidates. Or regular election candidates, for that matter. >I used to skip the primaries, until I realized this. I used to think they >were voting on whether to place the tax on the ballot in November, or >something. You can't tell the players if you don't read the program. In case anyone's been wondering, I vote a straight "None of the Above" ticket. Every election. I happen to believe that if you don't punch holes in your cards (we don't have those big, fun voting booths here in California like they do back East), you have no right to complain. -- Lefty [gYon-Pa] (lefty(a)apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.

1 0

Ecash w/ offshore bank clearing house
by Gary Jeffers 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ECASH WITH OFFSHORE BANK CLEARING HOUSE Well Chaum's ecash doesn't seem to be quite the Holy Grail that it looked like. It needs a clearing house to be effective. Would an off- shore bank acting as a clearing house for Chaum's ecash be practical? Could that be a State Killer? Yours Truly, Gary Jeffers PUSH EM BACK! PUSH EM BACK! WWWAAAYYY BBBAAACCCKK! BBBEEEAAATTTT STATE!

3 2

Re: v2.6 for the rest of us
by Richard Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Snarf it from ghost.dsi.unimi.it, as cautiously as you like. > (Oh, actually, the ftp site has moved to goblin.something -- it will > tell you when you try to log in.) > Eli ebrandt(a)hmc.edu Try ftp://ftp.dsi.unimi.it/pub/security/crypt/PGP/ Richard

1 0