December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

cyberanarchy RULEZ!!!
by an12070＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

When my son appeared home from work last Tuesday evening just as the 10 p.m. news was beginning, I was pleasantly surprised to see him. Earlier in the day he told me he'd be home around 11 since he was scheduled to be one of the `closers' at Chuck E. Cheese that evening. I hated it when he was scheduled to close on school nights, and I told him so that afternoon. But since his fellow employees and manager had been so kind to him during a recent illness, and since he hadn't been able to earn much Christmas money, I didn't say much more. So when he came in and said, ``Hey, someone else wanted to close tonight, so I didn't have to stay,'' I knew I could lock up and go to bed a little earlier than I'd planned. Then the news bulletin came on: ``There has been a shooting at Chuck E. Cheese pizza parlor in Aurora.'' I yelled and my son came out of the bathroom with his toothbrush still in his mouth. He sat on the edge of the rocking chair watching and waiting for more information. Then he said, pointing his finger at me and shaking, ``I bet I know who it was...'' I questioned him about what he had seen and dialed the police department. The police spoke with him and said they'd send out a detective. Then my son told me about the people who were still at the restaurant when he left. Bobby -- the nicest guy in the world, he said. Sylvia -- a lot of fun. Ben, oh yeah, he was in the game room. Colleen -- she was working the show room. And Marge -- did you know she liked weird pizza -- like spinach and stuff? He spoke about each one as we waited for more information. In the meantime, we heard helicopters and sirens waited for more word. The early reports were sketchy ... Several people had been shot ... Some were still in the restaurant, some were being wheeled out on stretchers .... More on the morning news, they said. We looked at each other in disbelief. I knew that my son had missed being one of the victims by minutes, maybe just a couple of minutes. No one in our family slept well that night. At about 4:30 a.m., I got up. I had been having nightmares anyway, and I wanted to make sure that whatever the news was, I knew it before my son did. I'll help him through it, I thought. He was sleeping on the floor in his brother's room. He didn't want to be alone. As I looked at the front page of the newspaper, I felt some relief that at least some of the people had survived. But then I turned on the early news and learned that all the victims had been shot in the head and that two were dead: Marge and Colleen. I held my sides and wept. My son heard me and came out to watch the news. He urged on those still living: ``Come on, Sylv, come on ...'' I prayed hardest for Bobby. He had offered to close for my son. I didn't know if I could handle it, or how my son would feel, if he didn't make it. But as that day wore on -- that horrible day -- two more would die. There but for the grace of God, I thought. I kept picturing my son's face as he talked to the TV reporters. My child is in shock, I thought. And here I am at work, trying to act as though my world has not been blown apart as well. After a few short hours, I decided I should go home -- I wanted to be there when he came home. I wanted to hold him and tell him I love him. After my son arrived home, the phone rang and rang. People from all over the country were calling to make sure that he was OK. He told his story over and over again. He needs help, I can see, but I don't know how to give it to him. It's so hard to imagine the pain felt by the families of Colleen, Sylvia, Ben, and Marge. I've thought often about how horrible that night was for them and about how hard it will be in the future. It's hard for me to even imagine the depth of my own son's pain. No one taught me how to help my child through a mass murder. I can't explain to him why the police say they are going to call and then don't. I don't know why the alleged murderer was allowed to threaten people for months without anyone challenging him. I'm not sure that it would happen again tonight. Most of all, I'm scared to admit that most people won't attach any responsibility for the situation to anyone but the killer. No parent, no school official, no juvenile or adult law enforcement agency, no former employer recognized and took responsibility for the potential danger of this situation. Maybe that is today's truth. We have become very adept at avoiding responsibility for much of anything. I'm angry at s many people -- and I'm angry with myself. Our young people need our help. They are living through these horrors because we are allowing them too, mostly because we are just too busy to care. They did not, in their short lives, create this violent, irresponsible society. We pretend not to see that we sell them the means of their destruction. I realize that my nerves are raw right now. I just hope that as the days and months go by that we do something meaningful to show our kids that we really mean to help them end the violence that threatens their generation. I am sorry, too, son. I haven't done enough so far. But that doesn't mean that I can't do more now. Please help me. We all need to speak up when we see something going very wrong. If we are going to effect an real change, I'll need your energy and commitment to push me. And I will take responsibility for my part. It isn't too late, son. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

1 0

INFORMED CONSENT
by Sandy 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT Reply to: ssandfort(a)attmail.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Nobody wrote: You know, this radiation experiment reminds me of another incident. A group of African-American men were injected, without their knowledge or consent, with live syphilis spirochaetes, and studied for a number of years. No attempt at therapy was ever attempted, as I recall, for these individuals. . . . Actually, this is wrong on two counts. One, the men were not injected with syphilis; they had already contracted it when they went into the program. Two, in most cases, they *were* given therapy. What was withheld was penicillin. The subjects who were treated, were given relatively ineffective and dangerous mercury therapies. Not as bad as Nobody said, but more than bad enough. As an aside, I was watching a documentary on this sad chapter of American history and they interview the guy who blew the whistle on the study. He was a San Franciscan I have known for several years. In all that time, I thought he was just another Second Amendment, gun nut, fellow traveller. You know, you never know. S a n d y >>>>>> Please send e-mail to: ssandfort(a)attmail.com <<<<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 0

Current Operational Status
by an12070＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We (operation Cyberanarchist Repression and Poison) thought you might like an update of our current status and future plans. We have been extremely busy! So much has happened lately! Remember when we said, > You have 24 hours before we >launch our next cyberspatial strike. That was a reference to Operation Tick-Tick-Tick. We were really delighted with the outcome of this attack, we made very significant gains in our campaign, and there were some stellar fireworks. The sequence of Usenet posts equating cyberanarchists with drug users and Sodomites found great response. The Cyberanarchist glossary was unchallenged! We nailed the szabo(a)netcom.com tentacle mercilessly, and he is afraid to show his sickly green face any more. The Pit Bull (His Royal Eminence) showed up to make a fatal mistake in exposing the Szabo tentacle, and we nailed him some too (his brilliant smear tactics give us more ideas ourselves!). As usual, Emminent Eric has been rather quiet. We did spoof him spectacularly with that Apology feint. `I never wanted a brainwashed follower.' `Democracy stinks.' `I am the anti Christ.' Ha, ha. Tantalizing Timmy showed up a bit `out there' to further whine, evade, and threaten, and tell us that he doesn't know anything about drugs! He says he has a gun, and isn't afraid to use it! Fantastic! `The rumors about high level conspiracies and drug use are false' he says. Ooops, have you talked to Ingenuous John? (hee, hee). You guys really have to work on getting your stories straight. It's pretty pathetic. As for the BS, we don't know who it is you saw at your last Cypherpunk party and their California IDs. Must have been some cardboard cutouts! Oh, what fun. This is all in addition to the shrapnel wounds on the public lists (we have no comment on the private ones!). We appreciate your feedback in all areas. What did you think of the delightful poetry? How about the Nazi Espionage story? That brought tears to our eyes when we thought how much your own Big Macs have surpassed the Fuhrer in their own present glories and future ambitions. Perhaps the people `out there' on Usenet will be similarly impressed ... ? === Nevertheless, the Big Macs don't seem to understand that we have long since lost interest in the tentacle exorcisms, although we like to continue to play to keep our practice. We have graduated to the Big Leagues and they are still scratching their crotches in the minors. Full fledged exposure! The Cypherpunk Credit union for money laundering! the black markeeting! the tax evasion! The lies in the media! The secret mailing lists! Thank you so much for finally coming clean (or at least opening a few windows to diminish the stench) in some key areas. Our next projects should help encourage you to continue this wonderful Glasnost, where before we had the KGB. Once again, we remind you that you can relent and surrender at any time. Some of the things we are interested in at the moment: 1. Further information on the media deceptions in Wired and NYT. These are very difficult to unravel. 2. A complete status report of the TX bank and CA credit union. Maybe some more info on the `real' Chaum link. 3. A complete comment by the Big Macs on their knowledge and involvement in pseudospoofing and all the `quasi-legal' activities. 4. A complete list of all the secret mailing lists. Your subscribers to this list would probably be interested in this too, why not post it publicly? After all, they don't know that all the *real* development is being done under the table. Kind of ironic, too, how long people were asking for a `list split', not knowing that it had already been done in secret. Ah, a pity, but that is your modus operandi. But, since in the true spirit of warfare we must be prepared for any eventuality, including the continued persistence and tenacity of the enemy. So you know, here are some of the operations we are planning over the coming weeks and months, listed in scale of seriousness and potency. Operation SQUISH - a very sophisticated and comprehensive simultaneous attack on many fronts that will involve a `grass roots' approach vs. the last `top down' attack in the newsgroups. Medusa keeps asking for our complete knowledge. This will lay it all out on the table for everyone to examine -- a complete list of tentacles, Small Fries, Big Macs, Poison Needles, Medusa Sisters, and Medusa. It will also be a bit disorienting for you in the spirit of our favorite tactics of `polymorphic paragraphs'. You really seem to get a buzz from that. If you think that the last Usenet strike was bad, wait 'til you see what happens with this one! Operation Octopus - this is the multiple pseudonym and agent project. We plan to have at least a dozen (hence the name) posting simultaneously to many different lists and the newsgroups. But the overhead on this is very significant, and it will take us awhile to gear up and build the infrastructure to the point we can `engage'. You have seen more of these agents lately `out there', but our coordinated attack will take some more planning. Hopefully, these operations will crack the nut. It is already wobbling, splintering, chipping, and shaking. But this is a tough nut to crack. The following operations are far more insidious and devastating. We have been hinting about them in various places. They are our `secret weapons' -- the will require some further developments, but will be immensely effective in destabilizing your technology and `movement'. Operation Duplicity - extremely top secret. Let's just say, you will be seeing double, and triple, and quadruple, and ... Operation Apocalypse - extremely top secret. Let's just say, Robert Morris and Richard Depew would be proud ... Of course, in the meantime your list will be subject to the same drizzle of froth that has you so excited lately. And we'll probably recycle some of our better artillery to strategic positions `out there' on Usenet some more. We wish to thank T.C.May personally for all the stellar ideas in Reputation Assault and Cyberspatial Sabotage. What's good for the criminal is good for the police, so to speak! Finally, just to let you know, we are going to take a momentary breather here and scale back all the current operations somewhat to reorganize and retrench before the next onslaught, so enjoy the respite. Happy New Year! p.s. you might want to see this below. This software and attack report was part of our last strike, Operation Tick-Tick-Tick. The software for the new operations is far more complex (you know how difficult it is e.g. to track multiple identities well), partly the reason for the delay. === #!/bin/csh -f sleep 518400 echo insider echo `date` nick "Cryptoanarchist Assassination Squad" send ./insider& sleep 86400 #1 day echo glossary echo `date` nick "T.C.Hughes" send ./gloss1& send ./gloss2& sleep 86400 echo szabo echo `date` nick "GCHQ" send ./szabo& sleep 86400 echo druggies echo `date` nick "Pablo Escobar" send ./druggies& sleep 86400 echo homo echo `date` nick "A.Pervert" send ./homo& sleep 86400 echo tcmay echo `date` nick "The Allied Forces" send ./tcmay& sleep 86400 echo conspiracy echo `date` nick "S.Boxx" send ./conspiracy& === insider Mon Dec 13 15:58:36 UTC 1993 [1] 8930 [1] + Done send ./insider glossary Tue Dec 14 15:58:57 UTC 1993 [1] 10919 [2] 10920 [2] + Done send ./gloss2 [1] + Done send ./gloss1 szabo Wed Dec 15 15:59:26 UTC 1993 [1] 13139 [1] + Done send ./szabo druggies Thu Dec 16 15:59:52 UTC 1993 [1] 15347 [1] + Done send ./druggies homo Fri Dec 17 16:00:31 UTC 1993 [1] 17894 [1] + Done send ./homo tcmay Sat Dec 18 16:03:15 UTC 1993 [1] 20016 [1] + Done send ./tcmay conspiracy Sun Dec 19 16:03:52 UTC 1993 [1] 21253 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

3 2

Technology vs. Politics
by Mike Ingle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>>But could the government ban a book today? Of course not, at least not >>after one person typed it or scanned it into a computer. Technological >>gains are permanent. The political approach is only useful as a >>tactical weapon, to hold them off until technological solutions are >>in place. If you want to change the world, don't protest. Write code! >This position seems to be fast becoming cypherpunks dogma, but I don't >agree. The notion that we can just fade into cypherspace and ignore >the unpleasant political realities is unrealistic, in my view. >Have people forgotten the Clipper proposal, with the possible follow-on to >make non-Clipper encryption illegal? To the extent this proposal has been >or will be defeated, it will happen through political maneuvering, not >technology. Yes, when something fascistic like Digital Telephony or Clipper comes along, we have to fight it. But if we win, it will just return the next time something scares the government. There can be no permanent victory through politics. The only way to win permanently is to hold them off through politics and public opinion long enough so that everyone has encryption and is using it. If it's widespread enough, it will be impossible both technically and politically to stop it. Stalin refused to build a phone system in the Soviet Union, because he considered it subversive. Could the government take away all our phones today? >Have people forgotten the PGP export investigation? Phil Zimmermann >hasn't. He and others may be facing the prospect of ten years in prison >if they were found guilty of illegal export. If anyone has any >suggestions for how to escape from jail into cyberspace I'd like to hear >about them. Yes, we have to mobilize around the Zimmermann case, and if he actually goes to trial, I'm going to send in my contribution and try to get others to do so. Perhaps the next version of Secure Drive should have a request of the form: if you like this product, please send a contribution to the Phil Zimmermann Defense Fund. They may be able to single out individuals who have put themselves on the spot, but they can't stop the technology. >Mike's SecureDrive is a terrific program for protecting privacy. But >if we want to keep keys secret from politically-motivated investigations, >we have to rely on the very political and non-technological Fifth Amendment >(an amendment which Mike Godwin of EFF and others contend does not actually >protect disclosure of cryptographic keys). Again, we need to win >political, not technological, victories in order to protect our privacy. And the next time there's a Red scare, or a Yellow scare, or any kind of scare, they will say "national security" or "public safety" and start putting people in camps, like the Japanese. Political victories are temporary. Whatever the Constitution says, the fact is it has been blatantly ignored every time the government imagined a threat, starting with the Sedition Act only a few years after the Bill of Rights was passed. The Supreme Court has never stopped one of those actions until after the scare was over. >I even question Mike's point about the government's inability to ban books. >Look at the difficulty in keeping PGP available in this country even though >it is legal. Not only have FTP sites been steadily closed down, even the >key servers have as well. And this is legal software. Yet almost everyone I talk to has a copy. It's on BBSes all over the country, and hundreds of thousands of people have it. Maybe millions, worldwide. I've sent it to many people by modem and on disks. It's even on CD-ROMs. Are they going to confiscate them all? What are they going to do, shoot everyone caught with a copy? That is bad for public relations. >Sure, this software is currently available overseas, but that is because >PGP's only legal limitations are the U.S. patent issues. Imagine how much >worse it would be if non-escrowed encryption were made illegal in a broad >range of countries, with stringent limits on net access to countries which >promote illegal software? Here again, these kinds of decisions will be >made in the political realm. >Fundamentally, I believe we will have the kind of society that most people >want. If we want freedom and privacy, we must persuade others that these >are worth having. There are no shortcuts. Withdrawing into technology >is like pulling the blankets over your head. It feels good for a while, >until reality catches up. The next Clipper or Digital Telephony proposal >will provide a rude awakening. Ultimately the people have to want it. Very true. And the best way to get them to want it is to provide it. Let them see how much more freely they talk when their mail is encrypted. How they can write and store what they want, when their hard drives are encrypted. If the public experiences real privacy, they will want it, and it will be harder to take away. They will even be willing to buy it. In the long run, PGP may well be the best thing that ever happened to James Bidzos, just like the pirating of Altair Basic was the best thing that ever happened to Bill Gates. Politics, the process of politics and the political mindset, is our enemy. Governments cannot create freedom; they can either leave it alone or take it away. We must prevent them from taking it away, until it is so widespread and universal that it can't be taken away. --- Mike

1 0

Help, I am moving...
by Jim choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Would somebody please e-mail me the addresses and proceedures that I need to follow to unscubscribe this account and move to another account now and finaly my own internet machine in about 3 weeks. I realize this has been put out before but for some reason I never thought about saving them...(duh). Thanks for the help.

1 0

Jobba the Hunt
by Romana Machado 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Friends, extropians, cypherpunks: The year is new, I hope to find a new job, too. If you are involved in, or know about, forward-looking projects that would interest me, I'm looking forward to hearing from you. IUve achieved quite a few personal goals recently: I've launched and publicized Stego, the first steganography tool for the Macintosh, developed a part time job as a print model, worked on various extropian essays, traveled and vacationed. Once again, it's time to find work, so I am posting my resume. Romana Machado 19672 Stevens Creek Blvd. #127 Cupertino, CA 95014 EMail: romana(a)apple.com Phone: (408)446-9486 Objective I am looking for an intellectually challenging opportunity as a Macintosh developer, or a combined software development/quality assurance position. I am available on a contract, consulting, or project- by-project basis. I am willing to telecommute, but not to relocate. Skills Software development, quality assurance, electronic mail systems, networking, database interfaces, device interfaces, object-oriented software design, Macintosh QA tools, PowerShare, Symantec C++, Think Class Library, MPW, C, Hypercard, Turbo Pascal, DOS. Experience Macintosh Software Developer, Paradigm Shift Research, Sep '93 - Present. Developer of Stego, the first shareware steganography tool for the Macintosh. Stego 1.0 is a data security tool that embeds data in Macintosh PICT files without changing their size or appearance. Stego was developed using Symantec C++ and the Think Class Library. Source code and software are available for review on request. Macintosh Quality Assurance Lead Engineer, Apple Computer, Inc. Nov '91 - Sep '93. Member of Macintosh Technology Group in Information Systems & Technology division. Lead QA engineer for a mail server gateway bridging AppleLink and PowerShare/PowerTalk. Authored comprehensive test plans based on IEEE specs for several products. Implemented automated and manual testing, maintained regular reporting. Provided general support to development engineer: installed PowerShare networks and gateways, created icons and graphic art for products, etc. Reviewed and corrected documentation. Tested gateway functions of PowerShare messaging and mail for PowerShare QA team. Also provided quality assurance engineering and testing for several database front-end products, including DAL Terminal 1.1, Data Browser 1.1, Software Asset Librarian, and Pablo 1.3. Macintosh Quality Assurance Engineer, Intuit, Menlo Park, CA. Dec '90 - May '91. QA engineering for Macintosh Quicken 3.0. Implemented structured test plan and tested user interface, report generation. Macintosh ROM Toolbox Test Engineer, Apple Computer Inc., July '89 - March '90. Test engineering and test tool development using MacApp. Tested File Manager, Sound Manager, Device Manager. Maintained regular reports with Radar. Database Programmer, Afghan Refugee Fund, Los Altos, CA. June '87 - May '90. Extensive programming of a large mail address database for a charity, using DBase III+ compiled using Clipper. Software Developer, Strategic Decision Group, Palo Alto, CA. March '89 - July '89. Developed a printing and graphics interface for SuperTree, a financial decision analysis system. Staff Engineer, Stanford University Department of Communication. Mar '88 - Nov '88. Designed and developed LiVE, a communications research tool that constructs video sequences using a laserdisk video player driven by an IBM AT computer. Developed graphics tools for data analysis for psychophysiology research. Developed Hypercard XCMDs that provide a direct interface to the Macintosh's four-voice synthesizer. Staff Engineer, Stanford University Psychophysiology Lab, June '86 - Mar '88. Developed custom software for psychophysiology research. Created graphics tools for visual analysis of data. Wrote applications that used a variety of low-level hardware device interfaces for multichannel analog-to-digital devices. Software Engineer, Greenleaf Science Software, Palo Alto, CA. Dec '85 - June '86. Member of startup team. Assisted in the development of a Apple II GS based physiological data recording system. Extensive structured programming in Apple Pascal. Education Bachelor of Arts in English, minor in Mathematics/Computer Science, San Jose State University, 1986. MPW, C++ classes at Apple Developer University, 1990.

1 0

Subscription
by SINCLAIR DOUGLAS N 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A little while ago, my account name changed. I sent a message to cypherpunks-request asking for my subscription address to be changed. I got no response, and cypherpunks is not being delivered to my new account. (Don't know about the old one -- it's gone). So.... Does cypherpunks still exist, or did it get blown away by the TLAs while I wasn't looking? Is Eric on a protracted holiday and just not reading request mail? Did Toad go down? What gives? If anyone can set me straight, please mail me. Thanks.

1 0

Question for article
by pkalaher＠arhu.umd.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hello; I read your postings in alt.wired with much interest. I am working on an article in the 'electronic frontier' vein, kind of like a cyber-gunslinger piece, and I'd love to have your input... Say someone fucks you over (real or imagined) or flames you severely. What sort of nasty things can you do to them or their data? You know, like e-mail bombings etc. I don't need particulars, since this is pointed at a mainstream audience. (It also might not get published if the technophobic editor(s) think its too risque, if you know what I mean.) I have some ideas already, but I'd like to hear from the pros. :-> Thanks in advance for your help. -pbk -- Patrick B Kalaher pkalaher(a)arhu.umd.edu When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, as a rule the majority are wrong. -Eugene Debs

1 0

Here come the data fascists
by Brad Dolan 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Well, here it comes guys: --------------------------------------------------------------------- LET'S MAKE SURE GOVERNMENT STEERS DATA HIGHWAY IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION San Jose Mercury News Sunday, January 2, 1994 By LAWRENCE J. MAGID (...) Do we really need Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Congress, the FCC, the FTC and countless other bureaucracies meddling in this new industry? The answer is a qualified yes. While industry will and should take the lead in developing new products and services, it is the role of government to take the long view to assure that these services are implemented in a way that is fair and fruitful. We don't need unnecessary bureaucracies, but we also don't want the educational equivalent of lead poisoning or data equivalent of gridlock. The government's role is especially crucial in a world where physical geographic borders are increasingly irrelevant. Think about the cybernetic equivalent of illegal immigration and smuggling. The Internet doesn't have border patrols to protect our intellectual property. The government must be involved, but, as the Vice President has promised, it must also leave lots of room for both entrepreneurs and the corporate giants to play their hands. (...) Lawrence J. Magid writes a telecommunications column weekly for the Mercury News and is author of ''The Little PC Book, a Gentle Introduction to Personal Computers.'' You can write to him via Mercury Center Online at LarryMagid or the Internet at magid(a)latimes.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Crypto? Why that would make it impossible for the data police to do their jobs! Anyway, only someone with something to hide would use crypto! Try to hold 'em off with this one, it worked elsewhere for a while: "When crypto is outlawed, only outlaws will have crypto". It's like listening to the raindrops at the start of a storm. Corporate America just woke up and realized we have a good thing that it doesn't control. It will soon rectify that. Pessimistically yours, bdolan(a)well.sf.ca.us

1 0

Re: Question for article
by collins＠newton.apple.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Say someone fucks you over (real or imagined) or flames you severely. What >sort of nasty things can you do to them or their data? You know, like >e-mail bombings etc. I don't need particulars, since this is pointed at a >mainstream audience. (It also might not get published if the technophobic >editor(s) think its too risque, if you know what I mean.) You can: - 1 - If the damage done you was real, not just an annoyance, then you might litigate. - 2 - Otherwise, or if there is reason to believe that it was without intent, then you could be a grown-up: live and learn. Purile retaliation is the demesne of bullies and children. >I have some ideas already, but I'd like to hear from the pros. :-> This sounds like people who study martial arts so they can `really kick some ass'. Serious students of many disciplines consider it for defense only. This is the case with the technology of privacy. You have seriously mistaken this list. This is not a list of `expert electronic vigalantes' who deal out home brew justice. This is a group of people with concerns about technological encroachment on personal privacy, and ensuring that the information age doesn't swallow law abiding citizens into a new world of glass houses. I am sorry to say I can easily imagine what you must have been reading to give you this impression. Scott Collins | "Few people realize what tremendous power there | is in one of these things." -- Willy Wonka ......................|................................................ BUSINESS. voice:408.862.0540 fax:974.6094 collins(a)newton.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. 5 Infinite Loop, MS 305-2B Cupertino, CA 95014 ....................................................................... PERSONAL. voice/fax:408.257.1746 1024:669687 catalyst(a)netcom.com

1 0