December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Breaking DES
by blaster＠rd.relcom.msk.su 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> The other reason is that it was initially feared that DES was a group. > That is, encryption with k1 and k2 might be equivalent to single encryption > with some unknown (to you and me) key k3. But a cryptanalyst or a brute- > force cracker would neither know nor care that you double-encrypted. > > It has now been proved that DES is not a group. What isn't clear to me > is whether it's ``mostly closed'', though I suspect not. It can be right, but we can use some intermidiant operation. For example: DES(randomHeader+DES(zip(DES (text, k1)), k2), k3) DES (text, k) - encryption text "text" by key k; randomHeader - some good random text; zip - some archiver. --- Victor A. Borisov aka blaster; Relcom R&D; Email: blaster(a)rd.relcom.msk.su; Phone: +7(095)-943-4735; +7(095)-198-9510; === Don`t panic! ===

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Re: NSA Can Spend a Billion on a Computer
by geoffw＠nexsys.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > But could such a project escape notice--and publicity--outside the > NSA? CPU desiginers would have to be brought it, and no doubt much of > the work would be contracted out. > > Any rumors floating around? > Note: I doubt that they will have to "bring in" CPU designers. Back when I was an EE undergrad in Massachusetts, I had a part-time job at a small outfit that did custom VLSI design work, the guy who ran the mass. office was the best VLSI designer that I had ever seen, he eventually became the chief enginneer on a couple of major CPU projects for a very large well know computer company (not IBM) headquarted in eastern massaachusetts. He was also the mentor to some of the people who made RISC work at berkeley. He learned his trade at the NSA. He told me so himself.

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Summa Pro Credit Union
by Michael E. Marotta 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tangential to the "Credit Union" Question by Michael E. Marotta mercury(a)well.sf.ca.us Most of this "Bank of the Internet" stuff blew past me, but I was stopped short by Perry Metzger's assertion that credit unions are not innovative. Here in Michigan, we have World Computer Corporation, a Data General VAR. They serve the largest and smallest credit unions. I have written about them twice for FOCUS, a DG user magazine. The first time, I spent 30 hours onsite with customer service. In fact, our household does most of our financials through a credit union, having been members of one since 1985. In truth credit unions are light years ahead of banks in innovation. For instance, we have long enjoyed voice-response and touchtone dial-in account services. I never use my statement. I dial in and reconcile. Banks are only now coming online. Banks are IBM mainframe environments. Credit Unions go with DG, NCR, Digital, anyone who can give them an edge. Banks argue about "outsourcing." CUs have been doing this all along. Most CUs don't even have data processing departments any more than they plow their own drive ways. You contract services that are not in your line of business. Credit Unions borrow and lend money. Data processing can be done inhouse and often is, but no one's brass plate gets polished as a result. CUs are small. They don't have (other people's) money to throw around. Credit Unions are member-owned. They can't by law lend money they don't have. They must by law have a defined (sometimes CLOSELY defined) market which restricts them. As a result of all of this, they look to _technology_ for wins. All the nay-saying here has come from the pudknockers while those who do, did. Good luck. You deserve it.

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Re: The Bank of the Internet!? (fwd)
by swc＠uc1.ucsu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Douglas Barnes writes -- > There is nothing, however, to prevent multiple CU's from being created IMHO, this is part of the answer to Perry's concerns regarding the difficulty of getting it right. Multiple digital CU's and other similar projects will try different approaches; eventually creativity and natural selection will evolve a usable system through market forces. Although I have not had Perry's experience with this sort of thing, I tend to agree with him that the magic will be in the details, and mostly in the NON-technical details, making this an EXTREMELY difficult project. But lay on! I applaud your daring, and wish you success, and recognize that even if you fail, you will have contributed much in the process. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc(a)uc1.ucsu.edu or cards(a)top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?"

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transmission facilities
by swc＠uc1.ucsu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Perhaps I am stating the obvious, but... There has been a fair amount of discussion regarding setting up our own networks of various kinds so that we don't have to live within the strictures imposed upon us by providers (and regulators) of 'conventional' WAN's and financial networks. This is good. However, thinking that this is a final solution is a delusion. We are too few in number; they COULD shut us down if they wanted to badly enough. To become 'ineradicable', we must proliferate our approaches: use LOTS of different physical plants and protocols, etc., with numerous interrconnecting gateways. That way, taking down a single physical network, protocol, encryption algorithm or business strategy does not eradicate the underground internet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc(a)uc1.ucsu.edu or cards(a)top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?"

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Re: Why X/Open in London?
by mycal (voices through your head ＠ 88.1MHz) 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Mon, 11 Oct 1993 15:47:03 -0400, "Duncan Frissell" <frissell(a)panix.com> wrote: > You don't suppose that X/Open was founded in London so that future Unix > versions could integrate crypto without bothering with US export laws. > <G> > > Another blow to America's competitiveness. > I know several small companies from canada that had offices in the us that moved them back to canada so they wouldn't be bothered by the US export laws since they use RSA in there product. The US is blowing it. mycal

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What is a Credit Union?
by cman＠IO.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I received this very good question from one of the list readers, and thought it might be of some interest to those following the Digital Credit Union discussion: > > Doug, > > Could you tell me what a Credit Union *is*? I don't know enough about > USAan culture. Actually, they started out in Germany, where I believe they still exist. They are one of the earliest forms of institutionalized cooperation, one of the founding pillars of the cooperative movement of the 19th c. Basically, they were a reaction to the big landowners and manufacturers controlling all the financial institutions; they have their roots in somewhat informal 'lending societies' which were groups of folks who would, rather than put their money in banks, pool it and lend it to members of their group. (A practice still common in Asia; even my students at various banks there engaged in this practice, and in fact were quite discursive on how they operated.) Nowadays Credit Unions are sanctioned by the government; however they still retain many of their desirable features. They can be created with as few as 300 members, they (legally) require only $1,000 starting capital, they are democractically controlled by their members, they are essentially non- competitive (old ones are often glad to help a new one get started), and they already operate as a national network to combine buying power for many third-party transaction processing services. Generally, Credit Unions are able to provide credit at rates lower than banks, and have generally had a much more customer-focused approach than traditional banks, although many large banks are catching on to this and have maintained parity on some of the technical innovations; it's hard though to duplicate the lending ecnonomies and general coziness of a bank that is owned by its members, all of whom either know each other or share a common bond. Also, to be a federally sanctioned CU, you have to have deposit insurance; the most common provider of CU insurance is the National Credit Union Asssociation, which also devotes a large part of its resources to assisting new or troubled Credit Unions. So, if for some odd reason I forget round fractional cents in transactions, I can pick up the phone and ask. Doug

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Re: Breaking DES
by doug＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> pmetzger(a)lehman.com said: >Doug Merritt says: >> 2^56 bytes equals 10^7 gigabytes. > >First off, you are forgetting a factor of eight. No, I'm not. I *am* assuming disk, obviously, since I quoted $1000 per gigabyte, which is disk price range, not RAM. > and if you use disk storage your whole device is going >to run far, far, far slower. Untrue. The disks will be used in a predictably serial fashion, and therefore read-ahead can be arranged such that everything is in RAM by the time the algorithm is ready to use it, so the whole thing runs at RAM speeds. >however, and have to factor in the cost of the rest of the equipment, >like power supplies, enclosures, controller cards, computers to run >the whole thing, I'd say we are talking a trillion dollars, give or >take a factor of 20%. It's true I didn't factor in the cost of the systems, but that doesn't give more than a factor of 2 to 5 in cost (depending on assumptions about the precise kind of pc clone used), where you seem to have come up with a factor of 100. >> Or say there's a quantity discount in orders totalling a million >> units, > >Say that my aunt was a Greyhound Bus if you like. You're dreaming, bub. Skip the sarcasm and pick a different quantity discount. If you don't like my 90% discount for quantity 1 million disk drives, pick another one. There is always some discount for quantity, and this is just a back of the envelope estimate, so I don't care much what you pick. 0% discount leaves the estimate in the region of $10 billion...that's still not inconceivable, merely expensive. That was my only point, that this *could* be done, and I've proven that, despite your misunderstandings. Doug

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Health Reform Smart Cards
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

L.>"The Clinton Administration proposal would put smart cards in the L.>hands of every US citizen and some legal aliens that would L.>provide billing reference identification as well as carry up to L.>about 30 pages of medical data about the individual. "The long-term strategy for health care information envisions creation of a Point-of-Service information system that brings valuable information to consumers, health providers, payers and policymakers." [the FBI, the NSA, the DIA, the CIA, Janet, Donna, Chelsea, Socks in real time] The President's Health Security Plan -- Page 127 No smartcard initially. They start with cards "much like ATM cards". The "unique identifier" may be the SS# or it may be another number (they haven't decided yet but not to worry because it will be illegal (or at least against policy) to link health and other records. This is a continueing cypherpunks issue because it means we have to finish our deployment before January 1, 1997. That should be plenty of time. Today's messages: THE COW IS LAME, THE COW IS LAME. THE BALD MAN ATE CHILI, THE BALD MAN ATE CHILI. THE CORN RIPENED EARLY THIS YEAR, THE CORN RIPENED EARLY THIS YEAR. And now back to our regular program already in progress... Duncan Frissell "In the 20th Century, Health became the most important thing in men's lives so naturally they started to kill each other for Health." --- WinQwk 2.0b#1165

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Re: Breaking DES
by an41418＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Since I started this thread, and because I have always had a problem with the rude way many people discuss things in this group, I was wondering, Perry Metzger, what contribution your sarcastic tone and occasional insults make to your argument. I believe it is possible to continue this debate and stick to the technical issues without getting personal or being rude. I wish more people would realize this. Wonderer (peacemaker?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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