December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

The Final Ultimatum
by an12070＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Cypherpunk leaders, state the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth on the charges of routine, systematic, rampant, and conspirational pseudospoofing and deception of the media and your followers, publicly to all those you have affected in Cyberspace. Cypherpunk followers, demand publicly and privately of your leaders the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and accept nothing less. Otherwise, watch the `movement' and your reputations dissolve before your eyes far beyond the present deterioration, to near total oblivion. You have 24 hours. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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Re: Pyrrhus Cracks RSA?
by cfrye＠ciis.mitre.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>You know the people who could break DES, RSA, PGP, etc. Shamir >unpacked Diffie's knapsack. What is most probable, is that these >ciphers will stand for some unforeseeable time until someone who >may not be born yet comes along and breaks them all as an idle >{exercise on her way to greatness in another field. > >But the NSA? No way, Jose. They might be nerds who hacked some >code at 3 am. But you put them on a salary and benefits in a >pyramid, then tell them not to talk about their work, and you >thwart whatever creativity they had. The NSA can kill you. But >t({they can never out-think you. Strong words that, IMHO, put way too much faith in the argument that a "restrictive" work environment inevitably crushes individualism and creativity. Any organization, .gov or !.gov, that: * recruits the best and the brightest and pays them well; * gives access to substantial computing/financial resources and academic knowledge; * fosters team-building, creativity, and competition *within the group*; * rewards achievement and provides status *within the group*; and * provides other movitivation, be it patriotism/pride/whatever, will produce more than its fair share of advances in a field. Given a concentrated environment and an advanced set of tools, it seems improbable that any group, regardless of organizational affiliation, could be outperformed *on an evolutionary basis* by a loose band of academicians and private researchers with irregular contact. Revolutionary change is impossible to predict, though I feel that no organization with sufficient resources would throw away promising methods without thorough investigation. Even so, I do personally believe that private individuals may have an edge in revolutionary research. Unfortunately, both statements are unverifiable. The key point to remember is that motivation is relative - regardless of our personal opinions, if someone seeks status within a group then more "restrictive" environments are not a hindrance to creativity. -- Best regards, Curtis D. Frye cfrye(a)ciis.mitre.org "If you think I speak for MITRE, I'll tell you how much they pay me and make you feel foolish."

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Re: The Final Ultimatum
by lefty＠apple.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Folks, Detweiler is psychotic. Answering this message of his, even to >flame him, isn't going to get anyone anywhere. There isn't any point >to it. Well, gosh, Perry, thanks for taking upon yourself to respond for the rest of us. A truly noble undertaking on your part. Many people are, in fact, capable of making decisions without your input, strange as this concept may appear to you. -- Lefty (lefty(a)apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.

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Re: Pyrrhus Cracks RSA?
by Peter Wayner 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've always felt that the NSA and its corp of mathematicians has a much greater chance of breaking anything than the folks in the University. Even in the best situation (MIT), a professor must devote substantial time to raising money to support themselves, their travel expenses and their graduate students. There aren't many folks who hold positions in these schools. The rest are in schools where the professor must also teach 2-4 classes to pay for food. Research is nice in these places, but it doesn't pay the rent. Very, very few people have the freedom and the time to devote to deep exploration of problems like cracking RSA. Most of them are in the NSA. There is no doubt that the restrictive work environment is a pain in the neck. But, most mathematicians don't really have many choices. They can go to a small college and teach forever. They can go to industry and work hard on the industry's problems. Or they can go to the NSA. It really isn't a bad choice in many respects. No classes. No students whining about their grades or asking for an extension. No endless search for grant money. If you want to do algebra or number theory or a host of other problems, it might be considered one of the best environments you could get short of the Institute for Advanced Study.

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Re: Pyrrhus Cracks RSA?
by cfrye＠ciis.mitre.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> = cfrye(a)ciis.mitre.org (Curtis D. Frye) > = boone(a)psc.edu (Jon Boone) >> Strong words that, IMHO, put way too much faith in the argument that a >> "restrictive" work environment inevitably crushes individualism and >> creativity. Any organization, .gov or !.gov, that: >> >> * recruits the best and the brightest and pays them well; > > Do you know how much NSA employees get paid? I'm wondering, because it > is certainly _not_ the case in the CIA. The "analysts" may make somewhere > between the $30K - $45K range, but that's hardly "good pay" for people > who are experts on that kind of analysis, especially when they have Ph.D.s. While I'm not intimately familiar with the workings of the NSA, I would guess that folks w/ Ph.D.'s and no/little work experience are probably brought in near the top end of that range, though the advanced degree would allow for quicker advancement to senior technical or management positions and correspondingly greater pay. Also, be sure to include the labor surplus, government benefits and job satisfaction as factors in considering salary adequacy. > >> * gives access to substantial computing/financial resources and academic >> knowledge; >> * fosters team-building, creativity, and competition *within the group*; >> * rewards achievement and provides status *within the group*; and >> * provides other movitivation, be it patriotism/pride/whatever, >> >> will produce more than its fair share of advances in a field. Given a >> concentrated environment and an advanced set of tools, it seems improbable >> that any group, regardless of organizational affiliation, could be >> outperformed *on an evolutionary basis* by a loose band of academicians and >> private researchers with irregular contact. >> >> Curtis D. Frye >> cfrye(a)ciis.mitre.org >> "If you think I speak for MITRE, I'll tell you how much they >> pay me and make you feel foolish." > > Please tell me how much MITRE pays you. Is your above description a > description of MITRE? MITRE pays me significantly less than what they would pay a Senior VP, which is about the level where I would feel comfortable stating that I "speak for" MITRE. As for the team-building observations I made above, they are made from a general management perspective and are open to debate, though that discussion might be a bit off-topic for cypherpunks if removed from the crypto framework. -- Best regards, Curtis D. Frye cfrye(a)ciis.mitre.org "If you think I speak for MITRE, I'll tell you how much they pay me and make you feel foolish."

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Case Studies Info Request
by Christopher Garrett Goebel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'm looking for info, articles, archives, book and journal leads on info related to applied cryptology in the 20th century... for a senior thesis I'm writing on cryptology, warfare, and national security. Specifically, I'm looking for o Clipper chip archives of articles o Articles on Phil (PGP) and RSA disputes o Articles on the export of cryptology I'd also like info on cryptology in the Cold War or leads to such info. Please send info to: genghis(a)blue.engin.umich.edu. Thanks, Garrett

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NSA
by The PUNISHER - Judge 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hey all, I just wanted to let you know (as an ex-SEAL), the NSA (and to a limited extent CIA) have UNBELIEVEABLE resources! If anyone could crack RSA, DES, OPP...they could. Never underestimate the power of a "black" budget (or for that matter soup) The PUNISHER Judge; Jury; Executioner....All in a day's work Mob Boss: "500 of my men killed; there is a limit to revenge you know" Punisher: "I haven't reached mine yet"

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Re: (fwd) Technosys, Prosody, the "NSA", and some unfunny BS passed off as a joke
by owen＠autodesk.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

And people think that corporations are going to entrust their information assets, and valuable corporate data/communication to a network where forgery is this easy. Right, and I am the emperor of China! This is classic. Expect to see lots more of these *harmless pranks*. LUX ./. owen

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Re: Can NSA crack PGP?
by owen＠autodesk.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> From: baum(a)newton.apple.com (Allen J. Baum) > But, there is one thing that is true about NSA's ability to crack it: > they won't give you cause to know whether they can or not. This statement, like the following, is like a rich vein of valuable insight into the extra-technical aspects of the issue. I found myself reading this next part over several times, and each pass I found that I associated what I understood to other unspoken questions I have. > e.g., if they can, and they read some mail of yours that you REALLY don't > want them to read, they won't act on that information in such a manner that > you can determine that they cracked the code for your message. They > couldn't use it on a warrant, & they couldn't testify as to its contents in > court. To do so would advertise their capabilities, which is a no-no for > them. (they might, of course, use that information to point people in the > right direction so they can attribute information to an anonymous tip, but > they have to be careful even there) and thus revealing that if you become a target of genuine scorn from that corner, it will operate from a position which is beyond accountability itself. I think that Doug Barnes hit the nail on the head by pointing out that sheer volume of stuff to filter through has the potential of affording us an edge. > Even now, when it's pretty certain they could crack DES, you won't > find them doing it for a law enforcement agency that asks; it gives away > too much. Anything you are *required* to keep secret, is more valuable to the *requiring agency* than to you. Anything you are expected to accept on faith, can't be proven. LUX ./. owen

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CORRECTION READ FIRST
by Christopher Garrett Goebel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Don't mail those case studies to genghis(a)blue.engin.umich.edu It was a dormant account my brother used to keep in touch with friends from work (when he worked there). He said he could forward mail to me from there... well, it looks like they've closed down that account. Sorry, send mail to goebelc1(a)studentg.msu.edu Thanks, Garrett

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