December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"jer+(a)andrew.cmu.edu" "Jeremiah A Blatz" 5-FEB-1997 06:54:01.96 >On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because >legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually >don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list >usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of >the usenet underirables. Umm... try reading list-managers for a while on AOL cluelessness for mailing lists. The Usenet AOL undesirables also do things like reading AOL's ever-so-helpful directory of mailing lists (some list managers have asked to have their list taken _off_ of this directory). -Allen

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Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Ed.Falk＠Eng.Sun.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi all; if anybody's interested in having a PGP key-signing party at this event, I'd be willing to organize one. If interested, send me your key (or a pointer to where I can download it), and let me know what times are good for you for the party. -ed falk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMvkGtzLd6HIbO1jdAQGZFQH9GNbQCwSS09YuPrC9jg43A9NiusV18sdM 66MKMVxIYYi2EstThJVWN8NLYCIGCgOiJnnIJ4ZgkbnAwY9zmZviVw== =4etp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
by Adam Back 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan McCullagh <declan(a)pathfinder.com> writes: > Adam writes: > > >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the > >absolutism of free speech. Free speech in electronic media, with > >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to > >truly free speech yet. > > I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The > Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies > regarding what information they print; these policies increase the > publication's value. Their policies impose the editors and owners biases on the publication. If people value their publication they buy it. The average quality of the articles is higher than a discussion group -- the authors spend longer writing the articles, and the best articles are selected by the editors. Unsuprising. The articles are probably biased towards the editors or owners politics. > Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you criticize the > National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in their > newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms? A newsletter is not a discussion forum. Editorial control of a newsletter is not moderation of a discussion group. The cypherpunks list is a discussion forum. It's the electronic equivalent of people talking amongst themselves about crypto issues in free time at CFP, or a crypto conference. > What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is > polluted a common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's > the tragedy of the commons. When all can speak without limit in a > public forum, the drunken boor can shout everyone else down. Dimitri's opinions aren't threatening anything. If you aren't interested in what he says don't read his articles. If you disagree with what he says, argue against it. Subscribe to or start filtering services (rating services) reflecting your views. Personally I think something useful could be done with a content digested form of cypherpunks with ratings, and pointers to the actual posts. Things like: + a thread on the experiment moderation, discussion from John Gilmore, Tim May, and others (hypertext ref) + series of latest ascii art and insults + new crypto developments in article forwarded by JYA +-+ discussion of new crypto developments, and Lucky offers a bet Would take a fair amount of effort from someone to produce a running commentry of cypherpunks discussions to provide a higher level index in to cypherpunks. The price of unconditional free speech is that people will say things which you personally don't agree with, however libertarian you are. The only thing to do is to ignore stuff you don't like, or argue against it, if you say, no this is too crap, or too worthless, then you've started on the slippery slope. It is the same principle that protects your own freedom of expression. It is worth bearing in mind that cypherpunks themselves are part of a minority (the population of people who understand what encryption is and implies, and know what governments are proposing enough to form an opinion on whether crypto should be regulated or not). Adam -- print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Hugh Daniel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting When: Saturday February 8th, 1997 Where: Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California Agenda: 11:++ setup, gossip, face feeding etc. 12:00 USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc. 13:00 PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc. 14:00 Break 14:30 Announcements, late breaking news, etc. 15:00 The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent 16:00 Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc. 17:00 This hour left bank for future expansion... Dinner: 18:30 Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA (All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...) Directions: Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA. A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the meeting will be held is at: http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html General directions: - From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right (clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. - From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left (counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad parking lot. Host: Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch(a)stanford.edu> and to Stanford University for providing the space for this months meeting. Notes: We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work as the case may be...). We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc. If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the month to do so!

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Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Mark Voorhees 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote: >It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because >I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It >was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional >manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed >accountant who was representing a large >corporation whose job it is to help people obey the >government. I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc. Mark

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Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"jer+(a)andrew.cmu.edu" "Jeremiah A Blatz" 5-FEB-1997 06:54:01.96 >On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because >legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually >don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list >usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of >the usenet underirables. Umm... try reading list-managers for a while on AOL cluelessness for mailing lists. The Usenet AOL undesirables also do things like reading AOL's ever-so-helpful directory of mailing lists (some list managers have asked to have their list taken _off_ of this directory). -Allen

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Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"mclow(a)owl.csusm.edu" "Marshall Clow" 5-FEB-1997 04:04:13.13 >At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron(a)herringn.com wrote: >> >>If I might make a suggestion: >> >>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on >>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it. >> >>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as >>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved" >>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything >>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user. >>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come >>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of. >> >>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation >>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it. >> >>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy. >> >I like this idea. >However, I would suggest an additional refinement: > Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which >is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish >to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who >wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on >the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every >message are happy. > >(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity, >and this may be too big a load) Lance's offer for informix to host the unmoderated version of the list may be of assistance here. >ObCrypto policy: > Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy >from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon >last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of >the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6 >accounting firms, last time that I looked. What all did he have to say? -Allen

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Edited Edupage, 4 February 1997
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"educom(a)educom.unc.edu" 5-FEB-1997 01:10:14.09 To: IN%"edupage(a)elanor.oit.unc.edu" "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List" >************************************************************ >Edupage, 4 February 1997. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a >Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >************************************************************ >GATES SAYS OLD LAWS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE NET >Microsoft's Bill Gates: "It's always surprising how old concepts carry over >into the new medium. It's overly idealistic to act like, Oh, the Internet >is the one place where people should be able to do whatever they wish: >present child pornography, do scams, libel people, steal copyrighted >material. Society's values have not changed fundamentally just because it's >an Internet page. Take copyright. Sure, there should be some >clarifications about copyright, but the old principles work surprisingly >well in the new medium. Anybody who says you have to start over -- I don't >agree with that." (George Feb 97) Looks like he hasn't thought about enforcement problems, which may fortunately prevent the application of unnecessary laws to the 'net. >CULTURE CLASHES ON THE INTERNET >At a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the issue of >censorship on the Internet was debated from East/West perspectives, with the >Eastern view represented by such countries as Singapore, Iran, and Egypt. >Denmark foreign minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen said, "Whenever you want to >stop the free flow of information, you must ask yourself what is possible. >The usual answer from politicians is we need international rules. I say, >forget it. It won't happen." Iranian mathematics professor Mohammed >Lasijani countered: "In the west, the issue is sometimes how to globalise >liberalism: how to export an ideology. I am not a liberal, and I do not >believe liberalism is the only way to a decent life." (Financial Times 4 >Feb 97) Well, yes, neither did Adolf Hitler. Sorry, cultural differences won't wash; individual liberties are more important than culture or national sovreignty. >Edupage is written by John Gehl <gehl(a)educom.edu> & Suzanne Douglas ><douglas(a)educom.edu>. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >********************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc(a)educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >Edgar Allan Poe (if your name is Edgar Allan Poe; otherwise, substitute >your own name). To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc(a)educom.unc.edu >with the message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you have subscription problems, >send mail to manager(a)educom.unc.edu.)

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Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Ed Falk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi all; if anybody's interested in having a PGP key-signing party at this event, I'd be willing to organize one. If interested, send me your key (or a pointer to where I can download it), and let me know what times are good for you for the party. -ed falk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMvkGtzLd6HIbO1jdAQGZFQH9GNbQCwSS09YuPrC9jg43A9NiusV18sdM 66MKMVxIYYi2EstThJVWN8NLYCIGCgOiJnnIJ4ZgkbnAwY9zmZviVw== =4etp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anil Das <das(a)sgi.com> writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer. > > Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but > seats are available only in fall. Toilet seats in the state of free fall? The stego on Sandy's moderated list blows my mind... --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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