December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Are cypher punks capable?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: >Against Moderation wrote: >> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not >> completely trivial. > >Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems? > I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling) subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list. One problem I have is in transit, how many messages did I loose? Since the moderated list is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages, I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of messages that he had already sent out. I thought about subscribing for about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account hitting its maximum kB limit. I don't have any filters, scripts, or other, and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).

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ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Hugh Daniel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting When: Saturday February 8th, 1997 Where: Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California Agenda: 11:++ setup, gossip, face feeding etc. 12:00 USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc. 13:00 PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc. 14:00 Break 14:30 Announcements, late breaking news, etc. 15:00 The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent 16:00 Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc. 17:00 This hour left bank for future expansion... Dinner: 18:30 Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA (All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...) Directions: Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA. A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the meeting will be held is at: http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html General directions: - From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right (clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. - From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left (counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad parking lot. Host: Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch(a)stanford.edu> and to Stanford University for providing the space for this months meeting. Notes: We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work as the case may be...). We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc. If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the month to do so!

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Sorry!!
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN 8+xvb184UfE= =sSG7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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New type2.list/pubring.mix
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com. Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area and then do a /dcc get. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjtk1OTpEThrthvAQEY9QP/RAmfhG6yF0xRQn23XgXhnVxQIMexnEIw SS3WNj8hHIS5TAT06AsjFLrcBGPqkN612XiYrkGAtgXLQfPuevxGrtDRdGesYzGH kz5+exvxW3BOuVokQs7TZLoQQzSq5WbmfdoG1UZ6aSXPQ1gE6c/Hwgx8R/Z4Os9I xZP07vWyryc= =bPEB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
by Ian Goldberg 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <199702030626.WAA14616(a)toad.com>, Vin McLellan <vin(a)shore.net> wrote: > Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors, >almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it. >(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the >unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared >12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was >something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!" > > (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at >Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however. I think there is a >description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very >efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project. >More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the >possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space. His attack >was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific >element in the RC5 crypto architecture.) Actually, it was 259 _machines_, but 4 of them were 8-processor UltraSPARCs (by far the coolest machines I had access to), for a total of 287 processors. The "special" network used by the NOW cluster was irrelevant; I didn't use it at all. I used the machines on the NOW and 120 other HP workstations as regular TCP/IP clients. I started them by simply logging in to each machine, one at a time with "rsh" (well, "krsh" or "ssh" where appropriate). - Ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvj4REZRiTErSPb1AQFl5gP+MGlyElNu6X3IHseW6Q0EPicPa4mQs35Z koUKkAhk0qrT2CpEzw7J6dtjyTLs2BUmScEOtvU8KiBjK8aRZCsE0BHSmONWtX71 dNZu1q/+wm2oSLi1tDq0mT7bpbBR0NbO71tWgza2vTFhtP4vKvzt5SodYSN+JTYL 5DuLvpofRFs= =ly1x -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Are cypher punks capable?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: >Against Moderation wrote: >> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not >> completely trivial. > >Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems? > I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling) subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list. One problem I have is in transit, how many messages did I loose? Since the moderated list is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages, I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of messages that he had already sent out. I thought about subscribing for about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account hitting its maximum kB limit. I don't have any filters, scripts, or other, and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).

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Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Mark Voorhees 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote: >It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because >I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It >was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional >manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed >accountant who was representing a large >corporation whose job it is to help people obey the >government. I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc. Mark

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Edited Edupage, 4 February 1997
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"educom(a)educom.unc.edu" 5-FEB-1997 01:10:14.09 To: IN%"edupage(a)elanor.oit.unc.edu" "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List" >************************************************************ >Edupage, 4 February 1997. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a >Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >************************************************************ >GATES SAYS OLD LAWS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE NET >Microsoft's Bill Gates: "It's always surprising how old concepts carry over >into the new medium. It's overly idealistic to act like, Oh, the Internet >is the one place where people should be able to do whatever they wish: >present child pornography, do scams, libel people, steal copyrighted >material. Society's values have not changed fundamentally just because it's >an Internet page. Take copyright. Sure, there should be some >clarifications about copyright, but the old principles work surprisingly >well in the new medium. Anybody who says you have to start over -- I don't >agree with that." (George Feb 97) Looks like he hasn't thought about enforcement problems, which may fortunately prevent the application of unnecessary laws to the 'net. >CULTURE CLASHES ON THE INTERNET >At a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the issue of >censorship on the Internet was debated from East/West perspectives, with the >Eastern view represented by such countries as Singapore, Iran, and Egypt. >Denmark foreign minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen said, "Whenever you want to >stop the free flow of information, you must ask yourself what is possible. >The usual answer from politicians is we need international rules. I say, >forget it. It won't happen." Iranian mathematics professor Mohammed >Lasijani countered: "In the west, the issue is sometimes how to globalise >liberalism: how to export an ideology. I am not a liberal, and I do not >believe liberalism is the only way to a decent life." (Financial Times 4 >Feb 97) Well, yes, neither did Adolf Hitler. Sorry, cultural differences won't wash; individual liberties are more important than culture or national sovreignty. >Edupage is written by John Gehl <gehl(a)educom.edu> & Suzanne Douglas ><douglas(a)educom.edu>. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >********************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc(a)educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >Edgar Allan Poe (if your name is Edgar Allan Poe; otherwise, substitute >your own name). To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc(a)educom.unc.edu >with the message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you have subscription problems, >send mail to manager(a)educom.unc.edu.)

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Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"mclow(a)owl.csusm.edu" "Marshall Clow" 5-FEB-1997 04:04:13.13 >At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron(a)herringn.com wrote: >> >>If I might make a suggestion: >> >>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on >>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it. >> >>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as >>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved" >>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything >>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user. >>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come >>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of. >> >>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation >>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it. >> >>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy. >> >I like this idea. >However, I would suggest an additional refinement: > Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which >is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish >to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who >wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on >the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every >message are happy. > >(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity, >and this may be too big a load) Lance's offer for informix to host the unmoderated version of the list may be of assistance here. >ObCrypto policy: > Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy >from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon >last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of >the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6 >accounting firms, last time that I looked. What all did he have to say? -Allen

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Re: what's in a name?
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> writes: > Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship > between ownership and list content or quality? I'll assert that ownership can only have a negative impact on content. Freedom is preferable to bias, and hence loss of freedom can only hurt content...according to -my- standard of content anyway. > Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the > commons" is not a useful metaphor? Yes. Such analogies assume that common people create tragedy, which is only true if their leaders have designed things to work that way. > Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for > good use of resources? The network resources are there to handle email traffic. Attempting to place a non-technical content-based standard on the usage of resources invites censorship and leads to stagnation of ideas. If people would simply learn to filter what they don't like from their net.viewport, there would not be a perceived problem. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen. Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. "But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.", said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?"

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