December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: The death of the list as we know it (tm)
by Matthew B. Landry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>We debate this issue every couple of months. Give it up. Or start your >own newsgroup. I'm strongly thinking of doing that. However, I think it would be a shame if we had to operate the newsgroup and the list in paralell, without connections. And frankly, I don't think it would be entirely a disadvantage to have wider exposure. Sure, we would get some more noise (but we're used to noise by now), but we would also get a much larger readership. We would still be preaching to the choir, but we would have a "choir" large enough that it would no longer be a disadvantage. As a compromise solution, perhaps we could have a one-way gateway to a general distribution newsgroup, where posts to the list would automatically go to the newsgroup as well, but posts to the group would only go to the group (unless the person also mailed to the list). The list.cypherpunks group at Msen (where my account was before) was set configured like a moderated group, so all posts got sent to the list, but there's no reason it _has_ to be that way. Really, I think there are ways to solve this so that everyone will get what he needs. -- Matthew B. Landry ml7694a(a)american.edu (Finally!) mbl(a)ml7694a.leonard.american.edu

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Diffie-Helman example in g++
by cman＠IO.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Here is a little demo using the big Integer routines from libg++ illustrating how Diffie-Hellman key exchange works. Basically, I wanted to prove to myself that it works, and thought others might appreciate it. Doug =============================================================== // Demo of mathematics for Diffie-Hellman type key exchange // // Useful to convince oneself that it really does work and that // a patent on it is pretty silly. // // Douglas Barnes (cman(a)io.com) // // Based on algorithm from Cryptography and Data Security, by Dorothy E. // Denning, 1983, Addison-Wesley. // // Note: you will need to have GNU libg++, or hack it to use big integer // math you do have. #include <stdlib.h> #include <time.h> #include <sys/types.h> #include "Integer.h" Integer& RandBigInt(int bits); Integer& FastExp(Integer& A, Integer& B, Integer& p); #define keysize 644 main() { Integer p; Integer a; Integer XA, XB, K1, KA, KB, YA, YB, T; char state[256]; pow(2, keysize, p); p = p - 1; // Does anyone have a clue what good values of 'a' are in this // algorithm? a = 127; // Set up random stuff initstate(time(0), state, 256); cout << "A and B pick random numbers in the Galois field [0, p - 1]\n"; cout << "where p is (2^" << keysize << ") - 1:\n" << p << "\n"; XA = RandBigInt(keysize); cout << "\nA picks a random secret XA: \n" << XA << "\n"; XB = RandBigInt(keysize); cout << "\nB picks a random secret XB: \n" << XB << "\n"; YA = FastExp(a, XA, p); YB = FastExp(a, XB, p); cout << "\nA gives B a message YA (a^XA mod p): \n" << YA << "\n"; cout << "\nB gives A a message YB (a^XB mod p): \n" << YB << "\n"; KA = FastExp(YB, XA, p); cout << "\nA now knows the key is (YB^XA mod p): \n" << KA << "\n"; KB = FastExp(YA, XB, p); cout << "\nB now knows the key is (YA^XB mod p): \n" << KB << "\n"; cout << "\nComputing the key (which is a^XA^XB mod p) from (a^XA mod p) and\n"; cout << "(a^XB mod p) is equivalent to performing two discrete log calculations;\n"; cout << "the number of steps to perform discrete logs grows exponentially\n"; cout << "in proportion to the # of bits in the field. For a 'p' of 644 bits,\n"; cout << "Denning estimates 1.2 x 10^23 steps.\n"; } // Calculate a^z mod n // // Based on the fact that (a^3 mod n) is the same thing // as: (((a * a) mod n) * a) mod n // // Gets its speed from the fact that, for example, n^18 is the // same as (n^2)^9 Integer& FastExp(Integer& a, Integer& z, Integer& n) { Integer a1, z1, two; static Integer x; a1 = a; z1 = z; x = 1; two = 2; while(z1 != 0) { while((z1 % 2) == 0) { div(z1, two, z1); a1 = (a1 * a1) % n; } z1 = z1 - 1; x = (x * a1) % n; } return x; } // Yes, I know the random stuff is lame. This is a demo. Integer& RandBigInt(int bits) { int i; int randval; static Integer retval; retval = 0; for(i = 0; i<bits; i++) { retval |= (random()&01); lshift(retval, 1, retval); } return retval; }

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wireless LANs
by accom!erc%accom＠uunet.UU.NET 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Well, I've got a wireless LAN up and running at home between my 486/25 and a 386 laptop - it provides uucp/cu connectivity, and I'll be adding SLIP soon. If anyone wants to see it working, let me know - I might be able to lug stuff to the next Cypherpunks meeting. I've had it running for several months now, and it was put together using all off-the-shelf compoments. The controllers cost $110 apiece, the radios are just amateur radio 2m rigs. It runs at 1200 baud, but it's enough to show that the system works, and is reliable. The controllers provide end-to-end reliable transport, so uucico doesn't have to do so much work. cu displays are a bit jerky, but *much* cleaner than on a standard voice-grade (yuck!) PacBell line here. -- Ed

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Re: The death of the list as we know it (tm)
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Another crypto newsgroup would be superfluous - we can talk technical on sci.crypt, politics on talk.politics.crypto, and get away with talking about implementation on sci.crypt, especially if sci.crypt.research gets created to provide a more pure crypto newsgroup. Yes, cypherpunks is already too high volume, but it does serve a purpose, and most of us could hack a forwarder into digesters or local newsgroups to feed our favorite newsreaders if we really wanted to.... Bill

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secure phone quest
by gtoal＠an-teallach.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In article <9310042017.AA26812(a)fegmania.wustl.edu> you write: >vat is available from ftp.ee.lbl.gov. There's no source at the moment >but there are binaries for different architectures. (And the dynamically >linked SunOS 4.1.x versions do work for Solaris 2.x) > >vat is intended for use as a IP multicast multi-user chat program, but I >believe that it is useable for point-to-point communication also. Using >it for IP Multicast may require kernel patches (depending on your OS). There's also nevot, last seen in gaia.cs.umass.edu:~ftp/pub G -- Personal mail to gtoal(a)gtoal.com (I read it in the evenings) Business mail to gtoal(a)an-teallach.com (Be careful with the spelling!) Faxes to An Teallach Limited: +44 31 662 4678 Voice: +44 31 668 1550 x212

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Re: second order homophonic substitution
by hfinney＠shell.portal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This homophonic cypher sounds interesting. If the authorities demand your keys, you could scramble each row of the matrix (scrambling each row separately), so that only the dummy message can be recovered. Real ascii messages have a character set of about 2^6, so the actual size of the key matrix will be 2^12, and that means that each entry will be about 12 bits. For full generality in handling binary data the character set would be 2^8, meaning a matrix of size 2^16 entries with each entry being 16 bits. This is a 128K byte key, which is pretty cumbersome. Also, the cyphertext is twice as big as the plaintext, which will stand out too. Plus, once the authorities see your decryption algorithm it may be pretty obvious that it was designed for this specific purpose, and whatever pressures they applied to make you reveal the key may now be redoubled until you reveal the "real" key. A one-time-pad has the advantage that the key is the same size as the file, and there is no size expansion in encryption, plus it's a plausible approach to use for high-security encryption. It will take less space and still allows for multiple decryption. Hal hfinney(a)shell.portal.com

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Re: Standard Headers for Anonymous Remailers
by pierre＠shell.portal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> I wrote: > Who qualifies whom, based on what info, and to eliminate whom? > Paul mentions organizational qualification methods > Douglas defends the rights of private groups, and anonymity Yes, I meant that as a pointer to further problems. I did not mean that it is very difficult to find organizational or technical solutions (although in practice, it may very well be), nor was I lashing back at an Orwellian suggestion. (I still get caught in the way email gets read, not that I have much more luck in person :-) Even though there may be technical solutions to "limited access" groups, it is not clear how compatible each of these is with anonymity. And at the same time it will become harder and harder to figure out whether somebody is using hir Real Name or some Assumed Name. The book publishing market surprises people because an author's pseudonym is not obviously a pseudonym. Any "limited access" policy has to address the problem of pseudonyms, and of individuals offering their pseudonym for un-accredited public access. But the problem at hand is not even that... In the case of io.com, and current remailers, the problem is netnews newsgroups that don't like anonymous abuse without really understanding how hard it could be to eliminate it... Netnews, until now, is here to provide open discussion and "publishing" space. The idea of qualification can be implemented via automatic moderation for example, but it has to contend with: 1) votes by the general public, and acceptance by sysadmins who will carry the traffic (although they don't have much of a say about mailing list traffic...) 2) superset groups and cross-posting. If a "qualify"-only newsgroup is created, then a super-set newsgroup could be created that copies everyhting from the "qualified" groups, and adds open traffic. That superset still carries interesting traffic from people who shun administrative overhead. Qualified people who want to pursue the thread they started now read the superset newsgroup. 3) If you publish, and expect email responses, you need to publish your email address. That makes you vulnerable to mail bombing. It does not matter if the newsgroups carries only filtered traffic. And thanks to Owen for posting the description of some of these net.wars. It will take me a while to go through that. pierre. pierre(a)shell.portal.com

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WE'RE UNDER ATTACK
by gtoal＠an-teallach.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In article <9309180534.AA27719(a)longs.lance.colostate.edu> you write: >We must try to determine whose rules we are playing by. Is this a >customs investigation? Treasury Dept.? The situation with NSA is that >they don't really ever act directly, they always go through some other >henchmen to do the dirty work. This smells like them. But the case of >the NSA convening a grand jury does not appear to have a historical >precedent. What's going on here? Here's my guess: the NSA isn't actually behind this - it was just unfortunate that Grady was getting up their nose at the time. Let's imagine someone who is an arse-licking toady and wants to keep in well with the government. Let's suppose he's the sort of person who, to paint the personality type, would go around hassling ftp site managers getting them to remove pgp. Then imagine that the cheeky bastards promoting pgp taunt him by offering it loudly from sites outside the US and there's nothing he can do about it. What does this person do now? Has a quiet word with his friends in the US Customs (you never know, he might have some connection with the government and exporting, for all we can imagine...) and points out as a loyal concerned citizen that a cryptographic munition has been illegally exported. He maybe even forwards them some postings by Grady saying that he was planning to publish these programs (and Grady is well known to publish his Moby Words through the Austin Code Works - anyone who gets Byte can tell you that...) If such a drittsekk came to the US Customs with such a story, I think they'd be duty bound to investigate it; *especially* when all they'll have heard until now is this persons highly one-sided view of the matter. Now, *I* can't imagine for a minute that any of our cypherpunks or sci.crypt readers would do such a thing, but then I always do tend to overestimate the common sense of the net.educated public... G

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Future of the list
by habs＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We (ExI) have offered the software now being used to operate the Extropians list to the operators of the cypherpunks list. Our software is not quite ready for prime-time, but it is a solid and interesting program. It allows for kill files by user, and subject (reg. exp.), and allows for retrival of messages by subject (reg. exp.) and full body text (agrep). It is very modular with one part of the program databasing all incoming messages and other modules actings as agents for various list members. Each agent can support one or more users (subscribers). In addition to kill files, all messages can be excluded and then specfic messages can be Included. I feel it or similar software will solve the programs that some members of this list are complaining about. (Mailing List vs. News Group). I strongly urge that a newsgroup NOT be formed. /hawk -- Harry S. Hawk ON Vacation

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Boy!
by Jiva De Voe 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Things got quite atround here *real* quick eh?

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Re: distributed autonomous networks
by catalyst＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>[stuff about possible power sources and transmission media] A television report on 'Beyond 2000' described meteor-bounce radio. The technique extends the idea of bouncing radio waves off the ionosphere (for distance), to bouncing off the atmospheric trails of micro meteors. Reported applications are economical (at least run-time economical, start-up cost was not discussed) weather telemetry stations in remote areas. A solar panel provides the power, a small computer is needed to direct transmission. I don't know how reliable 'Beyond 2000' is, but they did show both the alleged transmitters and telemetry stations using them. This technique may not be feasible in the context you are describing, but the telemetry application was parallel in that it also comprises many independent, self-contained transmitters. Scott Collins | "Few people realize what tremendous power there | is in one of these things." -- Willy Wonka ......................|................................................ BUSINESS. voice:408.862.0540 fax:974.6094 collins(a)newton.apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. 5 Infinite Loop, MS 305-2B Cupertino, CA 95014 ....................................................................... PERSONAL. voice/fax:408.257.1746 1024:669687 catalyst(a)netcom.com

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Re: Newbie question on PGP
by lear＠cp10.es.xerox.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Thanks all for the pointers (I came back from a meeting to find > 20 messages telling me where to go! Now that's response). Thanks all who responded. Russell.

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Re: TAL Press Releases
by Martin Janzen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I had to reformat the TAL press releases to make them readable, so I thought I'd save others the trouble... TETHERLESS ACCESS LTD. ANNOUNCES STRATEGIC ALLIANCES FOR WIRELESS MAN DEPLOYMENT October 4, 1993, Fremont, California Tetherless Access, Ltd. (TAL), a leader in the development of user-provided wireless metropolitan area networks (MAN), today announced the formation of three separate strategic business and technology alliances. The alliances envision the provision of wireless access, applications development, packet radio hardware development and new services for wireless connectivity to the worldwide Internet. TAL has developed a "plug-and-play" interface for the Macintosh platform for the unlicensed operation of packet radio systems. The systems enable peer-to-peer wireless connectivity over AppleTalk networks within a MAN environment. The system software also provides transparent connectivity to TCP/IP networks and to services available on the worldwide Internet. User-provided wireless networking allows anyone within range of another system to automatically make a network connection. This "ad hoc" network means that each node not only generates its own traffic, but also relays the transmissions of nearby nodes. Each system owner becomes a "de facto" member of the network. The system provides a low-cost connectivity solution for community networks, libraries, schools, businesses, telecommuters, and an easily deployed communications infrastructure for developing countries. "In association with our strategic alliances we will deploy wireless MANs on a worldwide basis with a focus on providing access to the Internet" said Dewayne Hendricks, President of TAL. Pandora Systems of San Francisco, CA, a software development and network operations company, will design Internet-based wireless networking products and services. Pandora's principals have been involved in the establishment of PeaceNet, GreenNet, The WELL and have developed numerous Internet applications including Veronica, one of the most popular and useful navigation tools available on the Internet today. "The Internet and wireless communications are both experiencing dramatic growth. The combination of these environments offer unparalleled applications development opportunities" said Mark Graham, President of Pandora Systems. InterNex Information Services, Inc. of Menlo Park, CA, a provider of high bandwidth connectivity to the Internet, will provide wireline access points to the Internet for wireless MANs in major metropolitan areas throughout the U.S. InterNex and TAL will jointly market network services to businesses, educational institutions, communities and individuals. Cylink of Sunnyvale, CA, the leading worldwide supplier of commercial communications security products and spread spectrum wireless modems and systems, is cooperating in the supplying of spread spectrum radios for deployment in TAL's MAN packet radio systems on a worldwide basis. Cylink's founders are leading authorities in encryption and spread spectrum technologies, and the company currently services customers in over 40 countries. Tetherless Access, Ltd., based in Fremont, California, is a leader in the development and deployment of "plug-and-play" wireless metropolitan area networks. The company's products allow customers to achieve efficient, low-cost, flexible, high-quality wireless data communications in metropolitan network environments and to the worldwide Internet. TETHERLESS ACCESS, LTD. ANNOUNCES NET/MAC PRO WITH SUPPORT FOR POWERTALK October 4, 1993, Fremont, California Tetherless Access, Ltd. (TAL), a leader in the development of user-provided wireless metropolitan area networks (MAN), today announced NET/Mac Pro, a new version of its NET/Mac Internet Protocol application for packet radio environments. NET/Mac Pro adds support for a personal gateway that allows PowerTalk81 users to exchange mail with SMTP servers over a TCP/IP network. PowerTalk is Apple's new mail and messaging technology, built in to System 781 Pro. This combination provides convenient Internet access for Apple Macintosh users through wireless Metropolitan Area Networks. TAL's standard products have led the way for wireless TCP/IP network access on the Macintosh. Now, with System 7 Pro, this access is simplified even more by not having to use a separate SMTP client program to transfer mail. "The PowerTalk universal mailbox and drag send capability integrated with our NET/Mac Pro product allows our users to deploy wireless MANs on a worldwide basis with a focus on providing easy access to the Internet mail services" said Dewayne Hendricks, President of TAL. TAL has formed strategic alliances with InterNex Information Services, Inc. of Menlo Park, CA, Cylink of Sunnyvale, CA and Pandora Systems of San Francisco, CA. Together the four companies will provide hardware, software and services which can be used to provide low-cost MAN connectivity solutions for community networks, libraries, schools, businesses, telecommuters, and an easily deployed communications infrastructure for developing countries. "In association with our strategic alliances we will deploy wireless MANs on a worldwide basis with a focus on providing access to the Internet" said Dewayne Hendricks, President of TAL. Tetherless Access, Ltd., based in Fremont, California, is a leader in the development and deployment of "plug-and-play" wireless metropolitan area networks. The company's products allow customers to achieve efficient, low-cost, flexible, high-quality wireless data communications in metropolitan network environments and to the worldwide Internet. Apple and Macintosh are registered trademarks and PowerTalk and System 7 are trademarks of Apple Computer, Inc.

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Re: distributed autonomous networks
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Obviously, if we do a radio solution, the equipment ought to be attached to cans marked W.A.S.T.E :-) At least in the US, you don't have to pirate radio frequencies; there are a few bands that are available for uncensored low-power use, though some of them may require spread-spectrum. Meteor Burst is real stuff, though the last time I knew a little about it the bandwidth was pretty low; e.g. you got 300 baud average throughput doing bursts of 4800 baud with really heavy-duty forward error correction, since it's a pretty sporadic medium. Power usage is really low, and typical applications are things like telemetry from snow-depth recorders out in the mountains, where line-of-sight is essentially unavailable. I don't know how much bandwidth or area you get out of it, or how traceable it is - our meteor expert retired years ago, and was looking at problems like how to build radio data networks that weren't bothered by nuclear explosions. If there's a spare satellite slot available, ALOHANET technology is a reasonably efficient way to use it.

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Re: The death of the list as we know it (tm)
by Pat Farrell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In message Fri, 8 Oct 93 14:08:50 EST, Matthew B. Landry <mbl(a)ml7694a.leonard.american.edu> writes: > I really think that the powers that be should consider the > newsgroup idea. I have to comment. Many on this list believe strongly in privacy. This implies that no one admits to being a PTB (power that be). Others are anarchists and don't believe in PTB. And occasional person wants to be in charge of the anarchy movement. Options include: 1. get a rational mail reader (nupop, eudora, etc.) and a rational vendor (netcom, digex, world, well, etc.) and read at your leisure. 2. convert it locally to a local newgroup. then use rn, tin, etc. with kill files. 3. unsubscribe. 4. alternate plan X. I have no problem with the volume. The S/N ratio could be better, but so could my bank account. Pat Pat Farrell Grad Student pfarrell(a)netcom.com Department of Computer Science George Mason University, Fairfax, VA Public key availble via finger #include <standard.disclaimer>

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Re: POISON PILL
by gtoal＠gtoal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In article <9310011625.AA10686(a)snark.lehman.com> you write: >You know, if people are going to discuss breaking blowing up computers >and killing people, they could at least have the taste to discuss it >elsewhere. Myself, I'm not a believer in violence, and I don't think >this list is devoted to explosives. Newgroup alt.terrorism.techniques >if you insist. Much as it pains me to agree with Perry when he's in his traditional 'wet blanket' mode, I feel I ought to point out that the kid who's currently in jail under half a million bail is there because files on his system apparently suggested direct violent action against law enforcement officers. While I understand that the comments made here are in fun, I'd be willing to bet there are some tight-assed LE types reading this who don't see the joke, and that the people who suggested various forms of bombs as data protection devices are now in the list of people to bust first when the revolution doesn't come. By the way, all schemes that rely on your computer detecting some change are useless. Any half-intelligent cop raiding your machine is just going to take the drive out and put it on one of his own machines. The only thing you can do is encrypt the drive. And we'll find out soon enough how the land lies on divulging of encryption keys when prz ends up in court. If anyone seriously implemented a dead-man's-handle to destroy his data, I can promise you that all that will happen is that you'll accidentally destroy your own data. G

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Re: second order homophonic substitution
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You don't need to do a full table of 2^16 bytes to handle real data - you could use 4-bit nibbles if you wanted, so each byte of steganotext has 4 bits of real data (which is cyphertext) and 4 bits of fake data. The steganotext is still twice the size of the plaintext, though. However, your key doesn't need to contain the whole table - you can use a much shorter key to describe a tour through the table or other method of filling it, where the key is the seed to a PRNG, which doesn't even need to be cryptographically strong, just decently random. This approach lets you use either 4x4 tables for compactness or 8x8 tables for efficiency. One way to make the decryption algorithm not reveal its purpose is to have one of the key parameters be a bitmask showing which 4 or 8 bits to keep out of the 8 or 16 output bits from the table. The (fake) encryption algorithm should have some feature to generate random bits using a hard-to-reproduce PRNG (e.g. the middle 4 or 8 bits of a 64-bit-wide PRNG), or something else obfuscatory, allowing the real cyphertext to be patched in through a less visible program, or through an obvious-functionality program like a one-time-pad xor. (Perhaps the PRNG could have parameters that, given all-zero input, produces all-zero output, or something similar that lets you use the same program for real and fake.) Now, the Bad Guys, if they're any good, will notice the 2:1 compression, and may suspect something's up, since they're archiving this posting :-). You can also do ratios other than 2:1, if you're willing to waste space. However, the algorithm does look like something an amateur would come up with to be the latest "nobody can crack my new complicated cypher", and it's tough to prove otherwise, since the real cyphertext is just raw bits unless you have the keys... Its effectiveness depends on whether they know that I know that they know that... and on whether they ask you in court, under penalties of perjury, whether this is the only key to the cypher, and whether you're really obligated to tell the whole truth in addition to telling them the truth and nothing but the truth. But truth is pretty complicated stuff, and once you start explaining the mathematical details of the PRNGs you use and how you know they're good stuff, and how quantum mechanics relates to the ability to send keys without eavesdropping, and the effects of quantum on epistemology, and what Knuth was talking about on page N of volume 2, they'll probably give up and decide it's irrelevant technicalities... said Bill, increasingly verbosely

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PHONE PRIVACY
by charliemerritt＠BIX.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> A 1-900 number to ensure non-tracibility. Does anyone have this number? I would not trust this for hiding from law enforcement. You can get the 900 service's fone records with a warrant. If not law enforcement, then who do you need this to hide from? You can use a pay fone to fool caller-id boxes. Well, I guess they dont hide the city.

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Spread-spectrum net (vulnerability of)
by Robert J Woodhead 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You can put up such a network, but given that your boxes have to receive the signal, it will be detectable (but not understandable) to 3rd parties. Anyone who wants to take you down will only need (1) a detector that can point out your boxes and (2) a small caliber rifle. Since the cost to find and destroy is much less than the cost to make and deploy, a covert network of this sort wouldn't last long. An _overt_ network, perhaps a commercial entity that networks an entire city, would be an interesting prospect. The techniques for maintaining location information on actual machines connected to the net, and for updating them as they move, are actually quite simple and well understood (cellular telephones are a simple, dumb version of the technology). The trick is to find out a way that the network can know where you are but not give that information out (even to the owners of the network), without unacceptable overheads.

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Newsgroup?
by Matthew B. Landry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I still think that people are looking at this idea wrong. If we made the list->news gateway work one-way, so that news traffic wouldn't end up on the list, all of the stated problems could be solved. Except, that is, for TC May's theory about archived postings being grepped by spooks. Personally, I think that this is a rather far-fetched idea. If the spooks thought we posed a real threat to them (they might; I don't know), they would have very little trouble grabbing every single character sent to the list now and archiving it all with the best dossier-style cross-indeces in the business. I just think that a newsgroup wouldn't affect that one way or another. On the other hand, if the Extropians software is as good as it sounds (and if we actually start using it here), we might not need to have newsreaders to get the same functionality. Sending an "ignore" message to the list software to be processed at the source is a kludge, but it seems to be a Politically Correct kludge, so we might as well use it. -- Matthew B. Landry ml7694a(a)american.edu (Finally!) mbl(a)ml7694a.leonard.american.edu

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Re: brin on privacy
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

peter writes > david brin spoke in ann arbor recently [...] > > privacy laws will be used as a weapon by the Rich and Powerful to > restrict the free flow of information. > > brin feels that privacy laws will be ineffective against the RaP, will > be sold to the rest of us through effective propaganda, and that they > will be used by the RaP as a means to cement their power base. He's probably right. (Of course, *most* laws made by the Rich and Powerful will be used to cement their power base, so this is just a special case....) Some examples that have been discussed on the net include the British data privacy laws that limit the personal-information databases that you can keep without formal notification to the people contained in them (and to the government.) The fact that you've got a computer and are using it in ways that indicate you have *some* database capability but haven't registered has been used as an excuse to search people's computers. Of course, if you *have* registered, then they can search to be sure you don't have any data you've forgotten to mention.... > brin's message was basically a populist one. he is concerned that the > moguls of data will have the opportunity to control what we see and > hear. what i found most fascinating about his talk was that while i > generally agree with the social objectives he backs, i am in 180 degree > disagreement on how to accomplish these ends. It's not an uncommon thing to find among people who believe in things but don't think about the implications of implementing those beliefs, as well as with people who are messing with really complicated technology. Bill

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Cypherpunk Cause
by DON_HENSON＠delphi.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The following was posted by L. Detweiler as an example of a typical response to his cypherpunk postings: --> >There is no cypherpunks cause. Neither is there a cypherpunks >movement. Get these delusions out of your head. There is, however, >cypherpunks software. > >I repeat, the cause and movement are in your own head. <-- If there is no cypherpunks cause or movement, please let me know. Being able to interact with people who believe in the cypherpunks cause is the only reason I subscribe to this list and if there is no cause, I would like to unsubscribe and spend my time elsewhere. Can we have a simple survey of the list? If you believe there is a cypherpunks cause and you believe in it, please post a short note to that effect to the list. Anyone who is interested can keep count. I suppose to be fair, you should also post a note if you believe there is no cause. Don Henson PGP key on serve or on request

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Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 (fwd)
by Arthur Chandler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greetings. I hope that I'm not spamming the list with this monster forwarded FAQ. But since the author(s) are proposing, as one of the stated goals of Virtual City(tm): The Virtual City(tm) Network will also be a proving ground for privacy technologies such as public key cryptography, PGP, and Digital Cash(tm). I thought that folks here might be interested. Has anyone heard of this outfit? Is it for real or a huge slice of lemon meringue in the sky? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 02:36:43 PDT From: Strata Rose <strata(a)apple.com> To: strata(a)virtual.net Subject: Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 VIRTUAL CITY (TM) NETWORK FAQ, REV 1.0 SO WHAT EXACTLY IS THE VIRTUAL CITY (tm) NETWORK? The Virtual City(tm) Network is an ambitious Networked Virtual Reality Infrastructure which will link current Internet information technology with the emerging capabilities of on-line virtual reality environments. Using existing software which implements shared, interactive virtual spaces we will extend the paradigm of the FreeNet community into virtual reality by creating online cities and communities in which people may share text, graphics, and multimedia in a cooperative real-time environment. These online communities will be able to make use of cutting edge tools such as network conferencing, collaboration & visualization tools, multimedia electronic mail, online access to government data, networked library catalogs & facilities, electronic books online and Internet-accessible public data repositories. The Virtual City(tm) Network will also be a proving ground for privacy technologies such as public key cryptography, PGP, and Digital Cash(tm). DIDN'T YOU RUN AN AD IN _WIRED_ RECENTLY? NO. And again, No. The Virtual City (tm) Network is the brainchild of one M. Strata Rose, longtime net.lurker and sometime visionary, who has been developing the concept since roughly June 1992. I started serious feasibility exploration in December of '92 and have been on track on a timeline which formally started in May '93. The folks who put an ad in _WIRED_ are Objective Communications of Illinois. Virtual City (tm) is a trademark of M. Strata Rose and VirtualNet (currently undergoing formal incorporation). We are registered with the NIC as VIRTUAL.NET and VIRTUAL-CITY.COM. OH, COME ON-- TRADEMARKING THE PHRASE "VIRTUAL CITY"? The concept of creating virtual communities in a Mush/MUD/MOO environment has been kicking around for many years, and quite a bit of work has been done by a great many people. However, there is a particular on-line public access service concept which I call the Virtual City (tm) Network. As it says in the terrifying amount of paperwork required to file a trademark, "this application in no way attempts to restrict the usage of the terms 'virtual' or 'city', merely their usage in conjunction where applicable to services in this class". Or something highly similar but in stricter legalese, as per professional advice. WELL, HOW IS YOUR "VIRTUAL CITY (tm) NETWORK" DIFFERENT FROM THEIR "VIRTUAL CITY"? Obviously there is a limit to the extent to which I can comment, as both of our offerings seem to be in a pre-release state. However, a brief telephone conversation with an individual at Objective Communications indicated some important differences: 1) The Virtual City (tm) Network will be free for individuals to access; charges will only be levied on entities attempting to conduct profitable business activities. My understanding is that Objective plans to charge fees at all levels of participation in their service. 2) The Virtual City (tm) Network has been designed for multimedia and information service access from the ground up. My understanding is that Objective's service is text-only and the gentleman on the phone indicated that they had no current plans to expand it to multimedia. 3) VirtualNet incorporates both a for-profit corporation and a not-for-profit research arm. One of our primary goals for the Virtual City(tm) Network is to take the Cleveland FreeNet model into virtual space. The Virtual City (tm) Metropolitan Transit Authority, VCMTA, is being designed concurrently as an object transport model between instantiations of various Virtual City (tm) Sites. We will be offering templates for instantiations of our city model to be used by communities and organizations, with a true distributed model allowing users and information to flow freely throughout the Virtual City (tm) Network. We are attempting to build an expandable, scalable piece of Internet infrastructure that will support a rich model of growth and self-determination as well as support research on virtual communities and cyberspaces in general. Look for abstracts, research papers, RFC's and API's from us in the coming year. NO KIDDING. TELL ME MORE. One of my design goals in building the Virtual City(tm) Network is to challenge people's assumptions about "the real world" versus "the virtual world"; many if not most of people's interactions today take place in a virtual world which has been largely co-opted by the real world. Newspapers, television, and radio are all prime examples-- most of these rely on mental constructions based on primarily verbal input or on finely crafted presentations which have little to do with "reality", yet few people consider to what degree these omnipresent factors constitute much of their information flow. A wonderful example is the Android Sisters' "Money" (radioplay "Ruby", ZBS Productions). The Sisters hold up two items, described as two pieces of paper, to a "viewer" and ask for her description. Her reply, "well, one is a piece of paper, but the other is money" elicits the ruefully exasperated reply "two pieces of paper!". The well-made point is that people's cognitive mappings have become so rigidly codified that they view their world through highly constrained filters to the point of shutting out other options. In the Virtual City(tm) Network, the line between the real and the virtual has the inherent ability to be deliberately blurred. Information from "the real world" can be presented as often as possible in a matter of fact way. I hope to feature several space station designs from the cutting edge of the aerospace industry, and the reported weather in the outdoor sections of the city will come from weather data live from local feeds, updated to the San Mateo Bridge area, the putative location of the site. Our virtual coffeehouses will tie into Internet game servers of various sorts and we are investigating links to real-world coffeehouses via terminals in the field. Imagine chatting on a virtual terminal via the Internet to folks on real terminals in coffeehouses. Now who's real and who's virtual? OKAY, WHAT'S YOUR TECHNOLOGY BASE? We are currently using LambdaMOO, an object-oriented virtual environment designed at Xerox PARC. Instantiations of LambdaMOO are already being used to provide virtual spaces in which researchers, educators, and interested folks can meet and interact online, such as MIT Media Lab's "MediaMOO", "JaysHouseMOO". the original "LambdaMOO" and a growing plethora of others. Various university and individual projects are adding the capability to access certain Internet information resources such as the "archie" FTP search engine and University of Minnesota's Internet Gopher browser [JaysHouse MOO]. Xerox PARC is working on a project called "AstroVR" in which extensions to the text-based MOO software allow astrophysicists to share graphical images and data. The PARC team is also working on MBONE extensions to LambdaMOO; these extensions will allow LambdaMOO users to use the Multicast Backbone to do real-time audio and video conferencing using tools which are being developed concurrently by the greater networking community. We are working on extensions which will combine the functionality of NCSA's Mosaic information browser with the virtual environment capabilities of LambdaMOO. Mosaic is a hypertext browser through which individuals may access various Internet services such as World Wide Web, Gopher, WAIS, and archie. The World Wide Web in particular uses a format called HTML (HyperText Markup Language) to create documents which can access other documents with a single mouse click from the browser. We are adding the ability for SGML or HTML documents to be valid MOO objects; this single extension opens up a significant range of possibilities which represent needed interconnectivity between the MOO environment and the wider world of Internet information. Virtual spaces in the MOO can then lead directly to an information cache, and information browsers on the Internet can interact with MOO spaces as well. This is just the beginning. In particular, the Virtual City (tm) Network is being designed to allow encapsulation of other information formats and explicit handoff to both public and proprietary information servers. Our model is very similar to the one which NCSA developed with Mosaic. You interact with our virtual spaces using custom clients or browsers which can invoke various service handlers or interaction programs on your host machine. Just as Mosaic will bring up a GIF viewer when you reference a GIF file, the Virtual City (tm) browser could invoke Virtus Walkthrough (tm Virtus) or the BRL-CAD environment on a virtual space. You might enter a virtual space with encapsulated or referenced data available in several formats that your client or browser could handle. WHY IS THIS IMPORTANT? Ah, this is one of the really great parts-- if we can hand you off to some other viewer or program or even another server, then the Virtual City (tm) Network is truly expandable and extensible. We will be able to offer services that no one has even thought of yet as long as they run over the Internet infrastructure (ie, TCP/IP or something that can encapsulate itself in it). The Virtual City (tm) Network will grow along with virtual reality and internet information technology, since new services can be accessed in a plug-and-play fashion. What we're trying to do here is essentially spawn a meta-infrastructure context in which to tie together highly varied services. This is also where VCMTA comes in. WHAT'S VCMTA? VCMTA, the Virtual City(tm) Metropolitan Transit Authority, will be developed concurrently. This facility will provide authentication services for moving database objects between servers on different hosts, as well as implementing state-of-the-art privacy enhancements for secure communication & transactions. VCMTA will allow us to network instances of the Virtual City (tm) Template together and allow people to "move" between them in one ever-growing virtual space. We realize that there are hard problems to solve in building any sort of object transport facility; however, our philosophy is that we can't work miracles but can make something that works, is customizable and configurable, and will make most people happy. Obviously you can't "move" objects, however you can build objects which rely on a core object library, are "registered" with VCMTA, and follow certain rules as to their behavior on other servers and in other conditions. The nature of our distributed architecture already means that resources you access are not necessarily on the VC server, this is the logical next step. WELL THIS IS ALL VERY NICE, BUT I DON'T PROGRAM AT ALL SO I PROBABLY WON'T BE ABLE TO USE IT MUCH. Current implementations of MOOs and MUDS require that users be able to program at a fairly sophisticated level in order to enjoy the full power of MOO/MUD environments, especially in constructing new objects. We feel that this encourages "second-class citizen" status for those virtual citizens who cannot or will not learn to program proficiently. Accordingly, the Virtual City(tm) Network is being designed with virtual storehouses of objects which can be drawn from and user friendly front-ends with which to customize those objects to create personalized and useful virtual spaces. The full power of the MOO internal programming language will still be available to those who care to use it, but those who have neither the time nor desire to do so will be able to interact as fully as the programming hoi-polloi. As part of this effort, we are designing interactive front-ends to interface with the storehouses of objects and handle simple customization. Certain "city services" such as phones, chat lines, radios, gopher slates, etc will be available as well as common objects (and unusual ones!) from various individuals. By the way, if you register an object for public use and it passes the Virtual City (tm) Architectural Board (no Trojan horses or duds, please!), it no longer counts against your quota. Keen, eh? THIS IS STARTING TO SOUND PRETTY COOL. ARE YOU SURE IT'S FREE? There will be no charge for private individuals to access the Network and to engage in building and programming activities (up to a generous initial quota, as in most other MOOs or MUDs). Non- profit and government organizations will be allocated space at no charge in the Virtual City(tm) Marketplace, Business District, and other public areas. Cultural attractions such as art galleries, museums, and music halls are placed throughout the Virtual City(tm) Network; space in these attractions will be donated to artists and community projects to publicize their work. The several museums will feature examples of the growing number of online exhibits such as the Library of Congress' current Vatican Project. Corporations and other for-profit entities may be charged membership fees on a monthly basis, as well as rent for virtual spaces in which to transact business. Our basic paradigm is that if you're in the Virtual City (tm) Network to generate professional profitable activity then you should pay a fee to do so. Ie., the customary net.forsale or net.jobs type of stuff is just fine, whereas setting up a virtual office in which to run a real-time on-line consulting business would require paying rent. Arrangements can be made on a rental or percentage basis, or both. We are very interested in supporting subscription-based services where subscribers are allowed access to custom objects or facilities. This can be a very economical way to do rich text or multimedia electronic publishing in a small-press model, or provide specialized databases or services at a modest cost to subscribers. WHAT SORT OF FACILITIES ARE YOU PLANNING? In addition to those mentioned above, we will have all the standard amenities-- Alexandria, the Virtual Library, a business district, arcade and game areas, residential streets, a campus area where several interesting projects are being designed, transit facilities, and so on. We're choosing to leave MBONE facilities out on this pass due to bandwidth considerations; however, we plan on supporting such diverse applications and protocols as Netjam MIDI, CUSeeMe network video conferencing, various whiteboard tools, IRC with local client enhancements, connections to other MOOs/MUDS, NCSA & BRL-CAD visualization environments, group collaboration tools, interactive game servers, Internet Talk Radio, etc. We're exploring support for proprietary and vendor environments as well, such as Autodesk, Virtus, SGI, and other virtual reality software interfaces. We also have several original-design projects up our virtual sleeves such as the Virtual Coffeehouses, the Twilight Lands where storytellers roam the campfires, the UpAbove and DownBelow space and marine research station simulators, a Virtual Physics Lab, and so on. Not to mention the Virtual City (tm) Marketplace, Information Center, and On-Line Technical Support Center where you can sell your products or services with minimal overhead and rely on our expertise to deliver your information to the Internet community. WOW, I'M CONVINCED. HOW DO I LOG ON? We're terribly sorry, but you can't log in quite yet. We will be opening the database to key implementors once we finish the C modifications to the LambdaMOO server and to the LambdaCore. We had planned a general announcement in mid to late November, but circumstances required otherwise. We are taking lists of pre- registrants, though. Send email to "vcreg(a)virtual.net" with pertinent info: your name, your requested character name, and a short blurb which will become your initial description. Oh yes, and your Public Key. Don't have one? Tsk, tsk, they're a good thing to have in general; go out and connect to a public key server and get yourself a key-- we'll send out your initial password encrypted to you, and you can decipher it with our public key. Fun, eh? If you're a sufficiently enthusiastic cyberspace denizen to pre-reg, you probably already have a public key... We are planning a Virtual New Year's Party at the very least, even if all net services are not on-line yet. The HTML/SGML capability is really the critical factor-- we will open as soon as that is reliably running and add other services as our range of interfaces expands. Even if our (free) custom browser is not finished by then you will still be able to use standard MUD/MOO clients in conjunction with Mosaic or similar HTML browsers to enjoy the multimedia capabilities. WELL, DO YOU NEED ANY HELP? HOW DO I GET INVOLVED? I'm glad you asked that question. :-) Since a critical aspect of our project is free public access, we need volunteers! Our schedule has been accelerated fairly rapidly at this point and we could use a hand fairly soon. Send email to "vcbuild(a)virtual.net" with some brief notes about what you're interested in implementing and your level of familiarity with MOO coding. If you have experience with server and core-level mods, there may be funding in it as well, though we are primarily looking for volunteers at this time. ISN'T THIS GETTING PRETTY LONG FOR A "FAQ" FOR SOMETHING NEW THAT NOT MANY FOLKS OUTSIDE OF THE BAY AREA HAVE EVEN HEARD OF? Totally correct. Send questions, suggestions, pointers, flames, and so on to "vc(a)virtual.net". If you'd like to be on a mailing list for discussion of virtual communities, network services, and other Virtual City (tm) Network related themes, send mail to "virtual-citizens(a)virtual.net". There's plenty more where this came from, look for technology updates, facility updates, and GIF & Postscript (tm Adobe) maps. See you in cyberspace! Virtual City (tm) Network FAQ 1.0 copyright 1993 M. Strata Rose & VirtualNet; permission to distribute in its entirety, including this notice, freely granted.

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PHONE PRIVACY
by Forrest Aldrich 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Through e-mail, charliemerritt(a)BIX.com writes: | | > A 1-900 number to ensure non-tracibility. Does anyone have this number? | | I would not trust this for hiding from law enforcement. [ ... ] I wouldn't either. Anybody with a bit of sense shouldn't trust something like that. If anything, it's likely a setup to attract certain types of callers anyways. | If not law enforcement, then who do you need this to hide from? | You can use a pay fone to fool caller-id boxes. Well, I guess | they dont hide the city. [ ... ] Well, let's not assume someone wants to hide, but what about assuring the privacy of the phone call? Afterall, this is what we use PGP for: for email privacy... though there has been speculation about just how secure this is. I correspond with people all over the world. If the government is keeping a tab on people that correspond and is watching their email, then they must know me pretty well. They can't be too concerned that I'm using PGP to correspond with someone in Moscow. It's been over a year, and noone's came knocking on my door. ;) Back to the subject: What about phone privacy? In this day and age, how can we absolutely guarantee a private phone call? Even if we are using voice-encryption tech, the call can still be traced. I think even more quickly than we are lead to believe. For example, I never bought the notion that they had to keep the call on for a certain amount of time before an actual trace could be performed. Maybe in the stone-age of Ma Bell, but not today. I suppose if one were able to use a setup like a remailer only on a phone network, whereby you got your call forwarded through different places to prevent a trace (doubt that's reasonably accomplished), it might make the trace a bit more difficult. There doesn't appear to be anything even cryptographically that we can do other than encrypting the voice and selectively using pay fones. It would be neat if there were some way to interfere with Ma Bell's computer, in a non-destructive way, to alter what information they get when we dial out. For instance,

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Future of Digital Cash
by Michael Edward Marotta 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Digital Cash: A Probable Future by Michael E. Marotta mercury(a)well.sf.ca.us Kinkos Copy Centers have instituted a debit-card. You put your federal reserve notes in a machine and increment the electronic card. Then you use the card in their public copiers. The card is anonymous. I have two because Kinko's doesn't warranty the cards: I don't carry more than $5 on a card. I have yet to trade the card anywhere else for goods or services. This is the sine qua non of money: money is any medium of indirect exchange. So far, you can only use the Kards to buy Kopies. Digital cash will not replace other forms. Federal Reserve paper passes on the street, perhaps, but gold and silver coins are still being made anew by the USA, PRC, other governments, and several private mints. Plastic, checks, and fiat banknotes have not removed the need for gold nd silver. If anything, government money reinforces the need for real cash: "Aurem non olet" means "Gold doesn't smell" i.e., cash leaves no traces. Digital cash could come from banks via ATMs. You increment your DigiKash card from your demand account or from FRNs in your wallet. You goto a store, pick what you want. You pass through the Exit. You wand or scan your goods. This clears their security. You insert your DigiKash card. It is debited. You package your goods (or put them in your cloth shopping bag) and you leave the store. There was a time when the Grocery Store had clerks. You gave one your shopping list or told them what you wanted and they got it for you. Then came the "supermarket." Self-serve. What a concept. This paradigm shift occured about 1945. We will see another. The retail clerk is on the way out. MacDonald's already ordered 75 robots. Debit cards remove the cost of employees. You'll use your DigiKard for fastfood. You'll use it at the gas pump. (They already take credit cards.) The assumption today is that you will use your BANK debit card for all of this. I'm not sure. I think that the first bank that offers anonymous debit cards will make a fortune. How? Well, for one thing, here in Michigan, Kinko's takes 4% off top for sales tax. Also, I'm walking around with unspent money on my card while Kinko's has my money earning a return. ATMs already cost me 75 cents per transaction. Make it an even buck and it will work for debit cards. Debit cards would be sure winners at Computer Rental stores. The MSU library has a bank of gopher terminals and Gov. Engler just separated property taxes from public education. Gophers seem like a fungible to me. The library already sells pens and copying is a cash business for them now. Public transit is another obvious choice -- the famous Orange card of Japan. Commuter trains in Chicago that toddlin' town had them in place in 1977. But debit cards don't _promise_ universality. You can't use your Kinkos Kard on the train -- yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ( ) "Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind. O Money is made possible by the men who produce it. The words 'to + make money' hold the essence of human morality. " | Francisco d'Anconia, 1957 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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