September 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

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by ChipCenter QuestLink 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

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muddleheads
by citizenq＠hushmail.com 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

>>> "maybe it shouldn't be done so fast." But then you say the bill >>> "will have to go to conference committee and then, probably, both >>> chambers of Congress for another vote.." >> >> I raised few policy objections. Instead I laid out what the bill would >> do. >> >> It sounds like you're what Tim would call a simp-wimp apologist for >> using Carnivore without court orders who is actively trying to sabotage >> privacy. "nyah-na-nah-na-nyah-nyah. I know you are but what am I?" Come on let's grow up. >> >> > >Yep, "citizenQ" is one of the simp-wimps.He hides behind his Hushmail >and Ziplip accounts, possibly using remailers fed into them, but then >calls for regulating crypto and privacy. > Uh huh, yep, that's it fer sure, uh huh. Idiots, there isn't a single place I call out for that. I call for clear thinking of which there is so little. I want good information and analysis, not kneejerk skyfalling pandering idiocy. In your little book, if I criticize Declan I'm calling for regulating crypto. Now that's rich. My use of the this or that technology itself should tell you exactly that I don't support its regulation. What I want is some really smart people to help keep the gov. from becoming more frightening than the terrorists, in the smartest possible way, and if you read my posts to Declan you'll see that. Looks like this list is the wrong place. The whole point is that his analysis is somewhat superficial with respect to the nature of the threats from the legislation, while at the same time he runs around blaring "Warrantless Carnivore" because it's all that fits into the cognitive scheme of the audience and he ignores the subtle context of the intent and the struggle that is going on in the hearts and minds of the grownups who are trying to come to terms with what to do. To imagine that by bouncing the rubble (so to speak, sorry) of all the old arguments yadda yadda, we are going to have any effect on the current process, is naive and childish. It's a new game, running in circles screaming and shouting is not going to win it - So what is? Well, we need more info on the cast of congresspeople and where they stand. We need to objectively understand the ramifications of legislation like what's proposed, and it needs to be done to the mass audience and not to the tired Wireds. We need advance notice of upcoming discussion in Congress. We need to understand the minds of the people on both sides of the arguments in order to have effectiveness. We need accurate unbiased reporting, identifying the critical battles. We have to choose those battles in congress, because to keep chanting the same undifferentiated rhetoric will create or reinforce such a credibility gap that it will be easy to ignore the whole unruly mess. Create come credibility, knowing the mind of those who do not share your views. God you guys are smart - try to apply it now to good effect. Now, are you clear that I am not your little pigeonholed vesion of what you think when you hear something besides your own regurgitated rhetoric?

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cyberhomeland defence
by mattd 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

Sustained AP at shrub when executive order on assasins is revoked.?War on 3 fronts if columbia warms up. Hell,tim might rope some of his paintball buddies along for the ride.Every empires got to go sometime... Look how fast the USSR went.

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unsuscribe cypherpunks@toad.com
by LordZe 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

unsiscribe cypherpunks(a)toad.com

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Schoolyard arguments
by citizenQ 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

I read it. Yes but in the deconstruction/analysis, you STILL don't support your position WRT the objections raised, you switch over to "maybe it shouldn't be done so fast." But then you say the bill "will have to go to conference committee and then, probably, both chambers of Congress for another vote.." So it's not being passed *into law* at midnite by voice vote, it will be subject to investigation and review, Leahy is out there doing a good job, and finally - does your Wired readership know that you think so little of them that they can't understand some of what this debate is about? Killfile away, and I shall do same. ----- Original Message ----- >Unfortunately for "citizenq"'s tender sensibilities, sometimes it actually >makes sense to call a fool a fool. This is one of those times. "citizenq" >clearly does not understand the difference between a news article written >by the general public that does not permit line-by-line analysis of the >bill and more technical commentary that it suitable for other fora. I did >write a detailed description of the bill for Politech, where such an >analysis is appropriate: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-02518.html > >"citizenq" has proven itself someone who needs killfiling. > >-Declan > > >At 09:08 PM 9/16/01 +0000, citizenq(a)hushmail.com wrote: >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> >> >>- ----- Original Message ----- >> >On Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:06:59PM -0700, citizenq(a)hushmail.com wrote: >> >> The wired-generation issue is that we don't need glib knowitall >> >half-information or reporting that's packaged just like an SUV ad >> >except it's for the socalled digiscenti. The issue is that we need >> >the best information that we can get and Declan's superficial >> >reportage of the Congressional debate does NOT fulfill the need. >> > >> >Fool. >> >>"Doesn't take criticism well." >> >>I linked to the transcript and posted the text of the bill myself. >> >I offered in-depth coverage. Compare and contrast to wire coverage of >> >the same legislation to achieve enlightenment. >> >>Is this where you set the bar when lives are on on the line? You post a >>link, post some text and then proclaim the sky is falling, or this thing >>or another thing, without analysis? My point is you have to do better. >> >>"Doesn't perform according to his potential." >> >>Never mind I'll do it myself. >> >> > >> >-Declan

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[Spy News] "Terrorist attacks in US - Intelligence memo points to Mossad link" , Frontier Post (Pak) (fwd)
by Jei 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:26:48 +0200 From: Mario Profaca <Mario.Profaca(a)zg.tel.hr> Reply-To: spynews(a)yahoogroups.com To: "[Spy News]" <spynews(a)yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Spy News] "Terrorist attacks in US - Intelligence memo points to Mossad link" , Frontier Post (Pak) Terrorist attacks in US - Intelligence memo points to Mossad link http://frontierpost.com.pk/main.asp?id=8&date1=9/16/2001 Shahid Ahmed Qureshi Frontier Post, Pakistan Updated on 9/16/2001 12:15:20 PM LONDON: A US military intelligence source revealed details of an internal intelligence memo that points to the Israeli Mossad intelligence service having links to the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. The intelligence source, who requested his name be withheld, confirmed the internal US intelligence memo circulated four weeks ago described information that pointed to the threat of a covert Israeli operation on US soil to turn mass public opinion against Palestinian Arabs via an apparent terrorist attack on US interests that would give Israel the green light to implement a large scale military onslaught against the Palestinian Arab population. The 11 September attack has been described by experts as being too sophisticated for a lone terrorist group to execute. "This attack required a high level of military precision and the resources of an advanced intelligence agency. In addition, the attackers would have needed to be extremely familiar with both air force one flight operations, civil airline flight paths and aerial assault tactics on sensitive US cities like Washington, Stated David Stern an expert on Israeli intelligence operations. The attacks targeted the Pentagon, World Trade Center towers, with the White House and air force also being targets according to the FBI. "The attacks have certainly turned US public opinion firmly back in Israel's favour after 11 months of Palestinian uprising, heavy criticism of Israel over war crimes allegations and racism by a UN conference in Durban. The attacks serve no Arab group or nation's interests but their timing came in the midst of international condemnation of Israel for its policy of death squad assassination of Palestinian political and police figures", added Stern. If verified, the news of Israel's involvement in the US attack welcome as no surprise to intelligence experts. The state of Israel has a long history of covert operations against Western targets with attacks on the King David Hotel, USS Liberty, murder of a Scandinavian UN envoy as well as espionage against the US during the Jonathan Pollard case. On Wednesday the US defence Department issued a warning to its officials to halt the leak of information on the investigation which it says is happening on a daily basis since the attacks occurred. --- Messages to Mario Profaca may be published at Mario's Cyberspace Station (http://mprofaca.cro.net/mainmenu.html) or/and forwarded to its associated Spy News list (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spynews) Please do indicate if your message is not intended for this. FYI: This mail sent by Mario Profaca is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.280 / Virus Database: 147 - Release Date: 11. 09. 01 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/TySplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ============================================== SPY NEWS is OSINT newsletter and discussion list associated to Mario's Cyberspace Station http://mprofaca.cro.net/mainmenu.html ============================================== *** NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to SPYNEWS eGroup members who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------------------------------- SPY NEWS home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spynews To change your subscription mode to Daily Digest (one message a day) send a blank message: mailto:spynews-digest@yahoogroups.com To unsubscribe SPYNEWS send a blank message: mailto:spynews-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Mario Profaca, independent journalist, SPY NEWS eGroup list owner, editor & moderator, is a member of of the Committee of Concerned Journalists, an initiative administered through the offices of the Project for Excellence in Journalism in Washington, D.C. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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unsubscribe me
by RYAN JOHNS 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

unsubscribe me please thanks ryan ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html

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Re: Material support to terrorists "concealing or disguising?"
by mmotyka＠lsil.com 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

>(a) Offense. - Whoever, within the United States, provides material support >or resources or conceals or disguises the nature, location, source, or >ownership of material support or resources, knowing or intending that they >are to be used in preparation for, or in carrying out, a violation of [XYZ] > Obviously AT&T is innocent since they did not know or intend and likewise so is a remailer operator who is not privy to the schemes of the terrorists so has no knowlege or intent. Or does innocence depend upon the depth of one's pockets? I doubt getting rid of remailers is so simple as the authorities that be not liking them. There's some time and effort involved and success is not certain. While they're at it might as well get rid of personal ads and public bulletin boards newsgroups ad infinitum. Our speech-restricting politicians are worthless. Mike

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SYMBOL
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

C'punks, I haven't had much luck in researching something. Several years back, Donald Trump proposed a high-rise complex for New York City that would feature a kilometer-high skyscraper. Does anyone have a URL about that plan? I'd love to see the WTC replaced with a building over twice as tall as the twin towers, the irrefutable tallest building in the world. Something like Trump's kilometer tower would be a great symbol of recovery and transcendence. S a n d y

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Re: On Internet and social responsibility
by Bill Stewart 17 Sep '01

17 Sep '01

Jim, the First Amendment is a fine thing, but it's got very little resemblence to twentieth-century US government practice :-) Non-electronic speech and press gotten better treatment, mostly, since we've gotten away from the days of the Schenk case, but electronic speech has been heavily censored and controlled, particularly under the Roosevelt-inspired monopoly over the airwaves. But even the writers of that pro-central-government batch of political compromise called the US Constitution appear to have considered laws against fraud, slander, and libel to be reasonable grounds for laws, and in some cases for duels. At 09:53 AM 09/15/2001 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Vadim Antonov wrote: > > > I'm not calling in question their right to publish; what i'm saying that > > this crap was going on for years, and nobody cared. > > > > BTW, if you look at the First Ammendment protections closer, they are not > > guaranteeing absolute right of free speech. Learn the American law before > > you invoke it to defend your point of view. > >Bullshit, you fucking anti-American revisionist.... > > Amendment I > >Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or >prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, >or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to >petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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