September 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Moral Crypto
by Nomen Nescio 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

On Sun, 2 Sep 2001, Nomen Nescio wrote: > The fact that a given person is using the remailer network is not a > secret. At least one remailer finds out every time he sends a message. > The point is, the entry from the non-anonymous to the anonymous world > is a vulnerability. Unless you run a remailer yourself. The fact that I use anonymous remailers would be hard to deny, if am a remailer operator. However, if I make my own remailer first in the chain, an attacker sitting at the second remailer will not be able to tell when I am using my remailer myself vs. when it is being used by others vs. dummy cover traffic.

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Re: Moral Crypto
by Nomen Nescio 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

On Sun, 2 Sep 2001 georgemw(a)speakeasy.net wrote: > If the remailer operators decided they wanted to deny "baddies" > use of their services, they would not only have to unanimously > agree as to who the "baddies" are, they would also have to deny > their services in all cases where the client cannot be positovely > identified. Neither of which strikes me as being plausible. We do this (or some of us do.) When a spammer is detected, often his IP address or email address is added to a block list. It doesn't work all that well. We can't block people -- only electronic representations of them.

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by Tom 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

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Is The The Right Time? New To Australia!
by Tom 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

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Re: Moral Crypto
by A. Melon 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

Tim May writes: > > It would be nice to see at least one example of something nasty that > > could be done with an anonymous remailer in the next few years where > > you couldn't get the same effect at the corner phone booth or dropping a > > letter in a public mailbox. > > Are you dense, or just ignorant? > > Consider the broad class of two-way communications, whether for > information buying and selling, extortion, espionage, arranging contract > killings, etc. Are these sufficiently "nasty" for you? Get real. There's no way these are going to be serious problems in five years. For one thing, they all depend on an established anonymous cash infrastructure for payoff off the crooks, buying the intelligence, etc. There's very little chance that such a system will come into existence soon (look at all the progress in the last five years), and even if it did, any problems with criminal use will be blamed on the cash system, not the email delivery. > Now consider that both the "corner phone booth" and "dropping a letter > in a public mailbox" are untraceable only in _one_ direction. Two-way > communication is not untraceable. Two way anonymous communications have been around for years. Dead drops are a commonly used technique, likewise public postings in classified ads and similar places. It's nothing new and there have been no laws to ban this capability.

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05 Sep '01

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Re: Motives
by Bill Stewart 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

At 08:00 PM 08/19/2001 -1000, Reese wrote: >We assume the lamerz posting "h3lp m3 m4k3 b0mZ" queries are LEA's >trolling, but are they? Is posting bomb recipes a violation of >some applicable law? If so, what law? If not, why do we assume >those to be LEA trolls, and not some hopeless wank or kook who >needs to get in touch with HisOrHer inner child and beat it up? Our esteemed Senator Diane Feinstein from California, occasionally along with other people such as Joe Biden from my home state of Delaware, occasionally proposes laws against disseminating information on the internet, particularly about bombs and such. (By contrast, an elementary-school education in Delaware includes a trip to the duPont gunpowder-making mills, learning about local history, colonial industry, and safe explosives-making.) So some of the bomb ranting is about her disrespect for the First Amendment. Some of it's pretty clearly from people who troll for the fun of trolling. Some of it might even be lam3r k1ddi3z trying to look k3wl. Some if it, especially post-Columbine and post-J*m B*ll, does appear to be from people trolling usual suspects on the net hoping to find some of them who are scary or stupid enough to entrap into some witch-hunt, a political speech, a newspaper story, a criminal conviction, whatever floats their boat. There actually are laws against blowing stuff up or possessing tools to do so, at least in some circumstances, or conspiring to do Bad Things, or corrupting minors into doing so, and for many purposes an accusation is really more useful than a conviction. Most of it's actually produced by the service* that the Cypherpunks Cabal Central Conspiracy Committee hires to make the list appear to be Mostly Harmless by posting a flood of decoy material and other slanderous and evil material so that the few genuinely dangerous messages can be dismissed as "oh, yeah, kooks troll us with stuff like this all the time" or "Oh, yeah, and last week they claimed we were conspiring with hizbollah.org and the Bilderbergers." [*Plausible Deniability Inc.]

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Re: The Privacy/Untraceability Sweet Spot
by Nomen Nescio 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

Mark Leighton Fisher writes: > Tim's point, which many seem to have missed, is that by design a tool that > enforces the privacy, anonymity, and pseudonymity of a women striving for > equal rights in Afghanistan can also be used by the Taliban in their quest > to track down and kill Afghans who converted to Christianity and are now > preaching the Word. That's absurd. The Taliban doesn't need crypto anonymity. They hold the reins of power. If they want to go after Christians, they just issue an edict. Their Islamic police stalk the streets of Kabul armed with guns and whips. They assault who they will, go where they wish. What would they need with anonymous remailers and pseudonym based credentials? The larger mistake, which others have made as well, is that these technologies are "tools" which, once created, may be used by everyone. Granted, with a basic encryption program this may be the case. (And indeed bin Laden is already using this technology, http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-05-binladen.htm.) But the more sophisticated technologies are not self-contained tools. They require a supported and maintained infrastructure to operate. Anonymous posters are painfully aware of how inadequate the current remailer system is. A truly reliable and effective anonymity technology will be more like a service than a tool. This means that the operators choose to whom they will market and sell their services. This was one of the main points of the original message. You can't just deploy a technology and hope that someone finds it useful. You need to identify and target a market segment where the value exceeds the cost. And Tim May himself raised the issue of further looking for profitable markets which are morally acceptable. He sometimes seems reluctant to admit it, but the point of crypto anarchy is to improve the world by reducing the impact of government coercion. It's not supposed to be a nihilistic attempt to tear down institutions just for the sake of destruction. Any cypherpunk who creates a privacy technology which targets bin Laden and his cohorts as a market is deluding himself if he thinks he is making the world a better place. You can say all the nasty things you like about Western civilization, but crypto anarchy has the best chance of survival under a democratic government that pays at least lip service to values of individual freedom. You who believe that the U.S. government is the epitome of evil should spend some time living in Afghanistan. See how far you get with your crypto technologies in a country which has banned the internet, vcrs, satellite dishes, television, movies and music. The point is that cypherpunks have a goal. The technology is not the end, but the means to the end. The end is a world with more freedom and more privacy. Getting there is not easy, the path is not obvious. And it is certainly not inevitable, as the past ten years of failure should have made clear. It is important to identify markets which will advance the cause rather than set it back. Tim May made a good start on this in his earlier posting. Those who reject the idea of judging groups and markets by their morality are the ones who are missing the point.

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Errata - Re: Cypherpunks List Info
by Bill Stewart 05 Sep '01

05 Sep '01

Infonex.com is the same system as cyberpass, so it's presumably dead now. The information on UNsubscribing still should be there, since some people may need to do that, but subscriptions don't need to be. At 08:00 PM 09/02/2001 -0700, cpunk(a)lne.com wrote: >Cypherpunks Distributed Remailers list info. > >Last updated: 8/22/01 > >This message is also available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Infonex: > >Subscription: "subscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo(a)infonex.com >Unsubscription: "unsubscribe cypherpunks" to majordomo(a)infonex.com >Help: "help cypherpunks" to majordomo(a)infonex.com >Posting address: cypherpunks(a)infonex.com >Filtering policy: raw >Message Modification policy: no modification >Privacy policy: ??? > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Trend Marketing & Associates
by Trend Marketing & Associates 04 Sep '01

04 Sep '01

Trend Marketing & Associates is in the process of maintaining and cleaning its opt in database. You are receiving this message because this email address appears in the database. If you do NOT wish to receive future communication from us nor from our clients please respond to this email and write in the subject line "REMOVE" and you will be permanately eliminated from our database. Thank you. Trend Marketing & Associates está en el proceso de mantenimiento y limpieza de su base de datos. Si usted NO desea recibir ofertas en el futuro por parte nuestra o por parte de nuestros clientes favor de responder a este mensaje escribiendo en la linea del titulo o sujeto "NO MAS". Si no lo hace así el sistema automatizado no lo proceserá. Gracias por su cooperación.

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