August 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Traceable Infrastructure is as vulnerable as traceable messages.
by jamesd＠echeque.com 06 Aug '01

06 Aug '01

-- On 5 Aug 2001, at 14:17, Sampo Syreeni wrote: > "Conforming to international treaties" *is* the hip way to circumvent the > constitution. As we recently saw in the money laundering treaties, different nations have rather different interpretations of international treaties. Some time back the US government, in flagrant defiance of the first amendment, but in accord with international treaties, prohibited the internet publication of drug manufacture information. Sites were closed down, only to pop up again in different jurisdictions. The sites were simply zipped up, the zip files floated around a while, then found new homes. If they cannot stop sites that give information on manufacture of drugs, they have lost and we have won. Similarly, as I pointed out to some nutty nyms who claim to be lawyers, if they cannot shut down child pornography on usenet, they cannot shut down alt.anonymous.messages. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG zW4bx+3/mu5osmKYwXYF48PIBXO/A5OJWaqVupwo 43nVaMDSSAYnIC9+/uyWJJWEH4c+OUEMW0CZ8sYL8

1 0

DR
by CHIUPING 06 Aug '01

06 Aug '01

Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks

1 0

DR
by CHIUPING 06 Aug '01

06 Aug '01

Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice See you later. Thanks

1 0

Change password.
by aw-confirm＠ebay.com 06 Aug '01

06 Aug '01

Forgot your password? If you did not forget your password, please ignore this email. To choose a new password, please go to the URL below: (please use it exactly as is including all trailing fullstops) http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/pass/$1$18296$XBsLP3.HiFqhL/TJ5jitP/a This request was made from: IP address: 63.24.242.122 ISP host: 1cust122.tnt1.oberlin.oh.da.uu.net Thank you for using eBay! http://www.ebay.com

1 0

Funny Money
by Jaws3kidz＠aol.com 05 Aug '01

05 Aug '01

Hey Dude, What's up I can really give you a lot more info and insight on funny money from the interpol to the Iranians and Cubans I've dealt with here in Miami. My e-mail is mm33176(a)yahoo.com

1 0

Final Words from me about document production requirements and remailers.
by Black Unicorn 05 Aug '01

05 Aug '01

I am going to try and be as clear and as slow as possible- knowing full well that it probably will make no difference and that my words will be twisted, strawmaned, touted or defamed whatever I do. Regardless: Hirsch v. General Motors, 628 A.2d 1108 (1993) effectively opens the door for third parties to be cited for spoliation of documents or evidence for actions, potentially and reasonably performed in good faith, before any proceeding or legal action begins or is even threatened. Again, this was a products liability case. Couple buys a car. The car catches fire. People are hurt. Car is resold to the dealer. The dealer refurbishes the car. The dealer sells the car to a third party in a cash or near cash transaction. Plaintiffs, much later, sue GM, the car's manufacturer, and the dealer. In a typical discovery order the dealer is ordered to produce the car and all records associated with it. The dealer insists it cannot. It has, it claims, in good faith, sold the refurbished car to a third party. Court demands records of the sale to identify the third party, seize the car, and use it as evidence. (Note that this harmless third party, who had nothing to do with this case, had they been identified, would have had their car seized and impounded for who knows how long, while it was evidence in this case, despite the fact that they had no idea the car would have been subject to suit, or any other action). Plaintiffs sue for spoliation of evidence, move for court sanctions against dealer and GM. Dealer protests that their standard business practice to refurbish and sell cars. Further dealer protests that they routinely have cash transactions with few or little identifying records of the end parties. (The "normal course of business defense"). Effectively, this isn't even "destroying" records, but not keeping them. The trial court permits the plaintiffs to sue for spoliation, mostly on the basis of the disposition of the car, not the papers or lack of records, although those are mentioned, and orders sanctions (a fine and costs) against the plaintiffs. Case goes to appeal where defendants make the argument that the papers, car and other evidence were not the subject of a suit or pending suit and that they were acting in the normal course of business. The ruling by trial court is upheld. Summarizing: 1. Third parties can expect that, good faith or total ignorance aside, their private property can be seized if it, through no conduct of their own, becomes the subject of a dispute. 2. The "normal course of business" is not an absolutely defense in a case of spoliation. 3. Actions which destroy or "lose" evidence and that are performed before any case, action, threat of action or summons can still constitute spoliation. Willard v. Caterpillar, Inc., 40 Cal.App.4th 892 (1995). In the normal course of business, consistent with policy and _under the advice of counsel_ defendant manufacturer destroys all internal records (along with other unrelated documents) on the design for a tractor. Some time later (years) one such tractor results in an injury and becomes the subject of a products liability suit. Plaintiffs request the production of all documents related to the tractor design. Defendant protests that these were destroyed a decade ago, on the advice of counsel. Plaintiff's move for sanctions and sue for spoliation of evidence. Trial court imposes sanctions, assesses costs to plaintiffs, turns court record over to plaintiffs in anticipation of their suit in tort for spoliation against defendant and refers the case to the local prosecutor with the recommendation that a case for criminal obstruction be brought. (Some notes in the trial record suggest that judge and defense counsel didn't exactly get along well). Hundreds of thousands of dollars and several years later in appeal the assignment of court costs are overturned on the basis that defendant was acting in something like good faith because they sought and followed advice of counsel on their document destruction policy and the destroyed records were thought for some reason to be of minimal value. Near as I can tell the record of criminal obstruction charge was sealed and doesn't seem to have been disposed of. The rest of the sanctions and fines stood. The case for spoliation was settled but some undisclosed payment was made to plaintiffs in that case. Summarizing: 1. Document destruction policies for a company which are instituted on the advice of legal counsel might get you out of court costs- after hundreds of thousands of dollars in appeals. Sanctions and suit in tort for spoliation will be permitted to go forward anyhow. 2. Pissing off the trial court judge (do not taunt happy-fun-court) is a bad idea when simultaneously telling the court you won't (can't) give them what they ask for, unless you like criminal sanctions. (Larry Flint would be another good example of the consequences of being an insufferable bastard or having a deep rooted psychological problem with authority when dealing with a court- sure you might win, but enjoy the lockup for a while in the meantime). 3. Again, the fact that you had no idea the records might some day be part of a lawsuit or action means nothing. If you destroy them, you might get burned regardless. I submit that the facts of these two cases, along with some of the others I've cited and the FRCP among other statutes, suggest that it's not much of a stretch for a remailer operator to find him or herself in the midst of a spoliation dispute- all technical distinctions between remailers and document destruction policies aside. Add the intent discussion in Lopez and only an idiot is going to be careless about operating a remailer. I'm not going to go over them all again. Go read some books. I submit further that a remailer operator would do themselves quite a lot of favors if they put themselves in a position to look squeaky clean in front of a judge if and when this happens. We have real life-real cypherpunk examples that this works. It is clearly necessary, however to improve on this. This is because: I submit that the very operation of a remailer meets the textbook definition of "spoliation" or "destruction" of evidence just intrinsic to its design and that its primary purpose is this exact function. I submit that courts are not going to be dissuaded from this obvious conclusion without a nice, clean, young, innocent, harmless looking defendant who is well behaved in front of them pleading impossibility, and maybe not even then. Even in that case there are years and years of archives (read evidence) of discussions from this list and others demonstrating that remailers were designed and perfected with precisely the intent of destroying potential evidence. I would further point out that the "it's just a file trading service, we can't help what our users do" defense was an utter failure in the Napster case and that's pretty much _exactly_ what a remailer operator is going to be saying. Courts are not always as stupid as we'd like them to be. Court's are not always as smart as we would like them to be. The trick is getting these two mental states timed well. I would add that the court in the Napster case specifically brought up the point that Napster, while a file trading service also, was clearly designed with the knowledge, if not the desire and intent, that it would be used to exchange/steal/pirate copyrighted works. The fact that it was a "dual use" technology made no difference and Napster is slowly twisting in the wind/dead because of it. Why, in the face of this, anyone would fail to see the patently obvious parallel to remailers is somewhat beyond me. Finally: As to the question of Microsoft being pinched for destroying evidence- which someone touted as having never happened without having bothered to look at any of the case file on the MS antitrust trial as an example that the sky is actually purple, MS was _twice_ cited for obstruction, three motions were made for sanctions by the prosecution and in one of those the judge actually threatened sanctions (which resulted in the eventual production of the 'missing' documents, electronic in this case. Further, instructions in the case eventually included the allowable inference that MS maliciously destroyed evidence useful to the prosecution. My only regret in pointing this out is that I think Mr. Sandfort might owe someone a house. (I note he never put a dollar figure on the house bet though). I grow tired of trying to convince religious fanatics that the world is pear shaped. If anyone not a part of my new killfile additions has anything actually useful to contribute wake me up and I'll probably comment. Some unnamed cypherpunk who doesn't want to be later cited for legal malpractice might write up a set of theoretical legal remailer operator guidelines and post it anonymously to the list in the next few weeks. We'll see.

4 5

Subject: Nortel Networks Registration
by Nortel-Networks Registration 05 Aug '01

05 Aug '01

Cypher Punk: Thank you for registering with Nortel Networks. As explained on the Thank You page, when you performed a �Forgot Password� function, your secure access to services and tools for Nortel Networks was temporarily suspended pending your confirmation of receipt of your password. Please access the URL provided and use your login and password to confirm your previous receipt of the reset password: http://www.nortelnetworks.com/link/crs-pending?code=15d52a5b We do appreciate your assistance in ensuring the proper handling of your secure password and secure access. Also, you can update your personal and access profiles at any time as your needs and interests change. Simply use this URL to update your personal profile and we will respond accordingly: http://www.nortelnetworks.com/crs If you have any questions or comments about your registration, your password, or access to online tools and services, you can contact us at 1 (800) 4 Nortel, or if you are outside the U.S, access the URL noted above and click on �International Numbers� in the left margin to get a complete international phone listing. As a reminder, please DO NOT respond to this email, but use the support numbers above, if you are in need of assistance. Thank you!

1 0

Subject: Nortel Networks Registration
by Nortel-Networks Registration 05 Aug '01

05 Aug '01

Cypher Punk: Thank you for registering with Nortel Networks. As explained on the Thank You page, when you performed a �Forgot Password� function, your secure access to services and tools for Nortel Networks was temporarily suspended pending your confirmation of receipt of your password. Please access the URL provided and use your login and password to confirm your previous receipt of the reset password: http://www.nortelnetworks.com/link/crs-pending?code=15d52a5b We do appreciate your assistance in ensuring the proper handling of your secure password and secure access. Also, you can update your personal and access profiles at any time as your needs and interests change. Simply use this URL to update your personal profile and we will respond accordingly: http://www.nortelnetworks.com/crs If you have any questions or comments about your registration, your password, or access to online tools and services, you can contact us at 1 (800) 4 Nortel, or if you are outside the U.S, access the URL noted above and click on �International Numbers� in the left margin to get a complete international phone listing. As a reminder, please DO NOT respond to this email, but use the support numbers above, if you are in need of assistance. Thank you!

1 0

OPT: Austin Cypherpunks - Physical Meet - Aug. 14
by Jim Choate 05 Aug '01

05 Aug '01

Time: August 14, 2001 Second Tuesday of each month 7:00 - 9:00 pm (or later) Location: Central Market HEB Cafe 38th and N. Lamar Weather permitting we meet in the un-covered tables. If it's inclimate but not overly cold we meet in the outside covered section. Otherwise look for us inside the building proper. Identification: Look for the group with the "Applied Cryptography" book. It will have a red cover and is about 2 in. thick. Contact Info: http://einstein.ssz.com/cdr/index.html#austincpunks -- ____________________________________________________________________ Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night: God said, "Let Tesla be", and all was light. B.A. Behrend The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

1 0

ASKING PERMISSION TO INCREASE YOUR SALES!
by Roger L. Martin 05 Aug '01

05 Aug '01

INCREASE YOUR SALES! Hello: I'm asking permission to increase your sales, this is - Work at Home Business Opportunity - No Cost to Start! This will help you get REAL prequalified leads - Meaning - they will want to work, They will step by step gain greater confidence in doing THIS business. They will have the money for your MAIN business. They will trust you and be looking for another business opportunity (ei. your MAIN business ). The above is how you will begin to get better sales for your current or (MAIN BUSINESS), You will help these people, learn to work, build confidence, make money and lead many of them into your main business. This will increase sales and partners for your main opportunity or business, in time they will want to look for other opportunities from you! NOW BACK TO THIS OFFER -- I am offering a full or part-time position in Work at Home Email Processing Business. I do require that you have a computer and are familiar with Internet/Email functions. You will need to copy, paste and file. NO RISK TO YOU, As to the salary, it's totally up to you, as you will be running your own business, the sky is the limit. What you will see represents a completely legal money making business that anyone can run to generate a significant income. You will receive full instructions, and I will always be available to help you and answer your questions. This is a genuine home business. This is NOT a chain letter, money game, MLM or any of the multitudes of dubious "business" offers that come through your e-mail box. This business will easily generate in a month or two, a residual income of $2,000 to $6,000 each month, with only a part-time commitment (about 10 hours per week). *Note: This is NOT Pyramid selling of any kind, Pyramid selling is illegal. A full-time commitment (about 30 hours per week), based on statistics gathered from my current clients (and my own personal experience), will translate into an income of $10,000 or more per month! To prove my sincerity and confidence in this opportunity, there is NO CHARGE to join us for the first month. You will receive all the information to get started plus the first month's information package ($99 value). If by remote chance you are not satisfied with the program after the first month and want to discontinue, you may by all means do so, and I will not contact you again. Therefore, if you have NOT MADE MONEY in the FIRST MONTH, Which is highly unlikely, YOU WON'T PAY ANYTHING, IF YOU WORK IT LIKE YOU ARE INSTRUCTED TO DO, THIS IS SO SIMPLE ANY ONE CAN DO IT! But on the other hand, if you are satisfied with the program and wish to continue after the first month, then you would pay $99 for the next month's information package. Since you DO NOT pay anything until after you see how effective this is, you have absolutely nothing to lose! ******************************************************* IMPORTANT If the above opportunity interests you in the least, and you would like more specific information about the business, please contact: me at smartmoney2020(a)yahoo.com Type "SEND INFO" in the Subject Line and insert your full name, your correct e-mail address, Your phone # If you don't have a phone # than tell me how I can get ahold of you by chat or voice conference, by giving me your user name and system you're using. For example: I use voice chat or chat with PALTALK, ITS FREE and my user name is "Eternal_Success2020" and I use ICQ # 5738085 this records all chat messages etc. Take your pick but stay in contact with me -- this is vital -- UNDERSTANDING THAT COMMUNICATION AND FOLLOW WITH EXPLODE YOUR BUSINESS IF DONE WELL, IF NOT IT WILL KILL YOUR BUSINESS. and any specific questions you may have at this time in the body of the message or CALL (406) 248-6999 MDT - Best after 6 p.m. Roger L. Martin To be removed, just type " REMOVE " in the subject, and click REPLY If you want real income and business reply to the following address smartmoney2020(a)yahoo.com With "Send info" in subject line

1 0