November 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
by Adam Shostack 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Following which, Alice pulls out the pre-dated revocation certificate, and generates confusion as to the validity of Bob's key change message. Duh, indeed. Adam On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 01:34:53PM -0500, Sunder wrote: | Simple. Once the buyer has the keys she issues an email saying "I'm | changing my keys, here's the new public key" and signs it with the old key | - thus proving that the nym's original message was valid, thus | invalidating the old one. Duh! | | | ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- | + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ | \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ | <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ | /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ | + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. | --------_sunder_(a)_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ | | On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Adam Shostack wrote: | | > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Wei Dai wrote: | > | On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:53:02PM -0800, georgemw(a)speakeasy.net wrote: | > | > Even this is not a scalar. Since reputation cannot be bought | > | > and sold, the idea that it is worth a specific well defined amount is | > | > false. | > | | > | If you own a nym, you can easily sell its reputation. Just give the | > | private key to the buyer. | > | > How does the buyer ensure that I haven't kept a copy? If what I'm | > selling is a nym, then without the nym, I am anonymous. Adding layers | > of nymity for reputation with partial disclosure seems a complex and | > failure-prone approach. | > | > Adam | > | > -- | > "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." | > -Hume -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

7 6

$75 Instant Match Bonus!
by Wallstreet Universe 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> WALLSTREET UNIVERSE - DECEMBER 2, 2001 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> +>+>+> Casino Extreme is offering a massive 100% match play bonus to a maximum of $75! Just deposit $20.00 or more and They will double your bank roll! That's right folks, deposit $20.00 or more at Casino Extreme and They will double your bankroll! Click Below to Play: <A HREF=" http://www.casinoextreme.com/aiddownload.asp?affid=3436 "> http://www.casinoextreme.com/aiddownload.asp?affid=3436 </A> Hello All Gambling & Freebie Lovers, We made it!!! It is now all downhill until New Years! Have a Great Weekend! Peace - Steven Schwartz and Staff mailto:support@wallstreetuniverse.com Click Below To Play - You Could Be The Next HUGE WINNER! <A HREF=" http://www.casinoextreme.com/aiddownload.asp?affid=3436 "> http://www.casinoextreme.com/aiddownload.asp?affid=3436 </A> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> * To remove yourself from this mailing list, point your browser to: http://i.pm0.net/remove?Wallstreet * Enter your email address (cypherpunks(a)toad.com) in the field provided and click "Unsubscribe". The mailing list ID is "Wallstreet". OR... * Reply to this message with the word "remove" in the subject line. This message was sent to address cypherpunks(a)toad.com X-PMG-Recipient: cypherpunks(a)toad.com <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> <<<>>> pmguid:rd.zo6.37kh

1 0

why didnt you come watch me on my webcam? you said you would! w
by Karina＠Wantstofuck.com 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by (Karina(a)Wantstofuck.com) on Friday, November 30, 2001 at 18:24:33 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- : hey babe, it's karina remember me? if you don't im 5'8" with brown hair and blue eyes with an ass you can bounce a quarter off of :) Im 21 years old and im in my final year of college at OSU in OREGON! i just got my first webcam and i love meeting new people on it and just showing my body off. i want you to come watch me do a striptease! my website is located at: http://sepimpin.brinkster.net/ if that doesnt work try http://karina.tk.ru/ ~ LOVE ALWAYS! -Karina XOXOXO<33 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 0

I hate, I think.....
by mikecabot＠fastcircle.com 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Apparently, the EU will be formally making hatethink a crime, although I suspect that this proposal won't in fact get unanimous approval. Notice how the Nazis (oh, excuse me, the Germans) are providing the "legislative basis" for the draft, meaning its modeled after existing German hatethink law. After two World Wars and 56 years, they still don't "get it". And obviously neither do some of the rest of the Europeans. (Not that Herr Doktor Grupenfuhrer Ashcroft "gets it" either.) Full text below, this is the URL: http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/11/29/wrace29.xml&sSheet=/portal/2001/11/29/por_right.h tml EU considers plans to outlaw racism By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels (Filed: 29/11/2001) RACISM and xenophobia would become serious crimes in Britain for the first time, carrying a prison sentence of two years or more, under new proposals put forward by Brussels yesterday. Holocaust denial or "trivialisation" of Nazi atrocities would be banned, along with and participation in any group that promotes race hate. The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin". Ordinary crimes would carry heavier penalities if they are motivated in any way by racism or xenophobia, or if the culprit is carrying out "professional activity", such as a police officer. Some of the crimes listed are, broadly speaking, offences under British law already, such as public incitement to violence. But the list also a covers a wide range of activities that sometimes fall into the sphere of protected political speech, such as "public insults" of minority groups, "public condoning of war crimes", and "public dissemination of tracts, pictures, or other material containing expressions of racism of xenophobia" - including material posted on far-Right internet websites. It was not clear yesterday how the law would affect radical Islamic groups that openly promote anti-Semitic and anti-Christian views. Nor was it clear how it would apply to political parties opposed to mass immigration, such as Austria's Freedom Party, Belgium's Vlaams Blok, and the Danish People's Party, all of which have become serious political forces. The law could potentially cover many stand-up comedians, and even Anne Robinson, who, during an appearance on BBC television this year, described the Welsh as "irritating". The proposals, which will require the unanimous backing of all 15 states, are aimed at ending the patchwork of different laws across the European Union and establishing a common definition that can be used by all judges. The commission appears to have adopted the most restrictive code - Germany's - as the basis for the rest of the EU. Leonello Gabrici, the Commission's judicial spokesman, denied that there was any intention of curbing political expression. "This totally respects free speech. It will be up to judges to decide where the balance lies" he said. The United Kingdom Independence Party said yesterday that it could be targeted by the new rules, noting that the Oxford English Dictionary definition of xenophobia is "a morbid fear of foreigners or foreign countries". Nigel Farage MEP, the party's chairman, said: "I'm morbidly xenophobic about this new country called the European Union, so if that is covered by this law then I'm most certainly xenophobic and I could be extradited anywhere. So I'm going to make sure my overnight bag is packed and ready." _______________________________________________________________________________ Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address? Visit http://www.FastCircle.com

1 0

Re: Moving beyond "Reputation"--the Market View of Reality
by Sunder 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Not the messages signed by the purchaser of the Nym, as those would not be signed with the Nym's signature. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_(a)_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------ On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Sunder wrote: > > > Following which the buyer posts all the signed emails between self and > > seller detailing the fraudulent transaction. > > Worthless, as all of those messages could have been forged. Or did you > mean to say that they had been dated by a third party timestamping > service? > > The fact is, digital signatures are irrelevant if private keys can be > compromised. > > > -MW-

1 0

I hate, I think.....
by mikecabot＠fastcircle.com 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Apparently, the EU will be formally making hatethink a crime, although I suspect that this proposal won't in fact get unanimous approval. Notice how the Nazis (oh, excuse me, the Germans) are providing the "legislative basis" for the draft, meaning its modeled after existing German hatethink law. After two World Wars and 56 years, they still don't "get it". And obviously neither do some of the rest of the Europeans. (Not that Herr Doktor Grupenfuhrer Ashcroft "gets it" either.) Full text below, this is the URL: http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/11/29/wrace29.xml&sSheet=/portal/2001/11/29/por_right.h tml EU considers plans to outlaw racism By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels (Filed: 29/11/2001) RACISM and xenophobia would become serious crimes in Britain for the first time, carrying a prison sentence of two years or more, under new proposals put forward by Brussels yesterday. Holocaust denial or "trivialisation" of Nazi atrocities would be banned, along with and participation in any group that promotes race hate. The plans, drafted by the European Commission, define racism and xenophobia as aversion to individuals based on "race, colour, descent, religion or belief, national or ethnic origin". Ordinary crimes would carry heavier penalities if they are motivated in any way by racism or xenophobia, or if the culprit is carrying out "professional activity", such as a police officer. Some of the crimes listed are, broadly speaking, offences under British law already, such as public incitement to violence. But the list also a covers a wide range of activities that sometimes fall into the sphere of protected political speech, such as "public insults" of minority groups, "public condoning of war crimes", and "public dissemination of tracts, pictures, or other material containing expressions of racism of xenophobia" - including material posted on far-Right internet websites. It was not clear yesterday how the law would affect radical Islamic groups that openly promote anti-Semitic and anti-Christian views. Nor was it clear how it would apply to political parties opposed to mass immigration, such as Austria's Freedom Party, Belgium's Vlaams Blok, and the Danish People's Party, all of which have become serious political forces. The law could potentially cover many stand-up comedians, and even Anne Robinson, who, during an appearance on BBC television this year, described the Welsh as "irritating". The proposals, which will require the unanimous backing of all 15 states, are aimed at ending the patchwork of different laws across the European Union and establishing a common definition that can be used by all judges. The commission appears to have adopted the most restrictive code - Germany's - as the basis for the rest of the EU. Leonello Gabrici, the Commission's judicial spokesman, denied that there was any intention of curbing political expression. "This totally respects free speech. It will be up to judges to decide where the balance lies" he said. The United Kingdom Independence Party said yesterday that it could be targeted by the new rules, noting that the Oxford English Dictionary definition of xenophobia is "a morbid fear of foreigners or foreign countries". Nigel Farage MEP, the party's chairman, said: "I'm morbidly xenophobic about this new country called the European Union, so if that is covered by this law then I'm most certainly xenophobic and I could be extradited anywhere. So I'm going to make sure my overnight bag is packed and ready." _______________________________________________________________________________ Want a FREE fast, secure, and permanent email address? Visit http://www.FastCircle.com

1 0

Speed Up Your Internet Connection In Just 5 Minutes 100% Guaranteed! rirozuse
by SpeedBrowse35784＠guaranteed-speed.com 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

1 0

theft (fwd)
by Jim Choate 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

??? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:21:49 -0800 From: Milissa Montalbano <Montalbano_Milissa(a)hotmail.com> To: owner-cypherpunks(a)einstein.ssz.com Subject: theft I'm in search for one of your representatives, or National Security. I have been able to read Thommy Thompson III's mind. I showed up at Jaguar Glass, in Eugene, Oregon and let him know about the money that he stole from government agencies, including the FBI, which ironically protects him. He thought I was undercover or believed I was a human computer; which he still may believe. He witnesses that his computers talk to me, as if I were one of them. I can tell what program his computers are on and what they are interlocking with most of the time. He gave me a 400 million dollar check that day, as I sat there reading his mind explaining to him what I knew. At that point he had 8-10 billion dollars of government money/funding hidden away. But after the planes went down he stole over a 100 billion. He used Mike's pin# and password to get into National Security. He helped himself into instruments and institutions, and began using them incorrectly and illegally. I am offering National Security or any Representative a lot of my money to help me put this man away. It seems he is being protected by the forces I need. He is station #3 of the HAARP Project and I'm in search for anyone ready to earn a lot of money; for actually representing the United States of America the Right Way. He's been looking into the minds of his people and brainwashing them, so he will not be seen. I can read his mind faster than any instrument, and ironically he seems he has to answer my questions like I was a machine. When I listen, I can hear him telling people he's playing God and to digest this information; or to Change their mind. Another one he uses, line one--, line two--, line three--, Lock and Load, which also seems to convince people that he is innocent. He changes the information nightly so he won't be seen, for he is a computer programmer as you will soon see. I've even tried try to get the HAARP to tune into me, so they could see me which would see him. This is just the beginning of what I know. Eugene, Oregon's FBI seem to be full of idiots or his "Change Your mind Method" is working pretty damn good. Right now I get denied as they listen to him and not me. But COME ON PEOPLE, He wrote me a $400 Million dollar check. (SO, WAKE UP! FBI, because you are obviously, virtually blind),. This Nation seems to be lacking people like me. That can discover people like Thommy Thompson III and his black market industry. Thank you, Milissa Montalbano ( 28 years Old ) 2145 Klamath St. Roseburg, Oregon 97470 Montalbano_Milissa(a)Hotmail.com

2 1

Further thoughts on Reputation Capital systems and implementation
by Sunder 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

There are plenty of systems of reputation capital already in existance out there. (RepCap to shorten it.) In this post, I will use several fictional examples, though the names may or may not resemble actual Nyms, within the context of this post, they are fictional and any such resemblance is purely coincidental (or halucinational in your case), and "you" refers to another Nym, not necessarily the reader, as "I" does not refer to the author, but yet another Nym. Ditto for actual named Nym's. In the finance world funds always have disclaimers stating that past performance is not a predictor of future growth, but in practice past performance is always used or at least taken into consideration. Reputations are built based on interactions of individuals with others who communicate references about their experiences. For the longest time your credit record has sufficed. Previous to that, your riches or your actions, (or breeding - a poor solution) or the esteem that others have for you that the viewer is acquainted with show (or at least hint) your reputation to those who are unfamiliar with you. New examples include things such as slashdot's karma points for insightful postings, and ebay's feedback profiles that allow a buyer to rate a seller numerically once per transaction with positive, neutral, or negative, and a comment. The seller can also rate the buyer and warn other sellers that this guy pays on time or was a hassle, or a dead beat. Anyone can view a nym's repcap and see all the comments along with the items that were sold, etc. Sellers can prevent those with negative or low rep-caps from posting bids, or can state that those with less than a certain amount must pay by certified check or credit card since they aren't trusted - or that their personal checks must first clear, etc. I actually like this model, but it can be expanded. Reputation capital can however be abused. In a Cypherpunk reputation capital environment, Mallet can set up two nyms and use them to defraud others. Here I will present a way around this. Mallet creates Alice and Bob, and has them perform some transaction over and over again, on each transaction posting postive repcap to each other. As Adam Shostack and Wei Dai's comments have pointed out, there are possible abuses to such a system: For the ebay model: Alice can sell Bob a used piece of toilet paper for $0.01, and on completion both Alice and Bob post positive repcap's for each other. Of course both Alice and Bob are Mallet's Nym's, so Mallet runs this process repeatedly until both Alice and Bob have high repcap's. This attack can be extended by Mallet over several hundreds of Nym's to make this less obvious, and can be randomized somewhat, etc... If a high rep-cap Nym is sold, the old owner can reursup the Nym if the buyer doesn't revoke the old public key and issue a new one. The old owner can even have a predated revocation certificate causing confusion. But in this case, fraud has been commited, so the buyer must have some recourse. Perhaps the buyer can then disclose their identity (or rather their original nym) and the signed messages between themselves and the fraud. Money may be perhaps reclaimed, or not depending on how the Nym was sold. RepCap's should certainly not just have a single dimension stating positive or negative, but rather a set of vectors. Certainly repcap metadata about a sale is different than that of an essay posting, or that of a social interaction. (Choate might for example have the best bbq's in the entire country and he might have huge successful parties, but perhaps his posts leave something to desire.) Perhaps XyzzY is a genius when it comes to her knowledge of perl scripts, but she's notoriously in debt, so I might not want to accept business from her, though when I read the perl mailing lists, I would happily see her messages. In a posting model such as Cypherpunks I believe I have an idea for a decent system. I'm not suggesting we implement this as there would be too much resistance to a fully working restrictive repcap based mailing list here, but, rather this can serve as a theoretical example. We swipe a bit of the Slashdot system, a bit of the ebay system, and add digital signatures. Let's start with a post. Say Tim posts a very brillian post about something. The readers of the post can if they chose to sign a hash of that message along with their vote for postive, neutral, or negative and a small comment (not a reply to the message, but a comment about the character of the post.) This message does not make its way onto the list as a message, but rather as metadata. That is your special mail client won't display them to you, so you won't see a flood of metadata emails, but your client will process them after authenticating their signatures. RepCap archive servers will collect and cache these for anyone to see. Individual clients can do the same. (You don't want a central server or a set of central servers as these can be destroyed, etc. and then the system fails.) Suppose that in my client, I hold Declan and Sandy in high reputation. That is my cache of their repcap is high and positive in relation to others. Now suppose that Tim posts a message and suppose they both vote that Tim's post was brilliant - thus give it a positive vote. Instead of adding just "2" points to my cache of Tim's rep, since I trust Sandy and Declan as non-nutcases, their votes are weighed against their own repcap's in my cache. Say Tim has a repcap of 600, say Declan has 500, and Sandy has 400. Then I add +1 * 500/X from Declan's repcap and +1 *400/X to Tim's repcap, so now my cache of Tim's repcap might jump to 620. Now this is not Tim's true reputation capital which came from individual votes, and can be downloaded from any archive by any new user at any time, it's rather my view of it. For example, say Jim doesn't like Tim, Jim can change the weight of Tim's repcap, or even the actual repcap in his own cache to something low, and then Declan and Sandy's vote won't make any difference. Further, if I or anyone else choses to, we can ignore posts by those with repcap under a certain threshhold. Doing so would also stop spammers from getting their message displayed (but not necessarily the bandwidth hogging.) Any time I chose to, I can change my own cache of someone's repcap, thus overriding public opinion. Perhaps this personal setting for each Nym I see would be locked either for a specific duration (so further votes can change it later on -- see below example of Aimee and Faustine), or forever. These should only override the tallied up ones from the servers, not replace them. Perhaps I can also share my views of a certain Nym, stating that "Vulis is a nutcase" or "Eric Hugh's is cool" and some sets of values, if I chose to. These can be the same as the weights I privately use to filter out things, or they can be a different set - should I chose to be two faced. But what about a new user who doesn't know Tim from Jim? Simple. They can talk to the archive servers and get either a count of positives and negatives or download the last six months worth of votes and optionally comments, or even download all that the archives have for a particular nym, including their public key, and any signatures on that key (pgp web of trust, etc.) Alternatively (or additionaly) the new user might want a query of what Declan and Sandy think of this guy and perhaps average them to build the cache. How does a new Nym build repcap? Lurkers who only read will be invisible, so they won't have a reputation. As soon as they post others can vote one way or another, and based on the weight of the repcap of the voter, a quick rep cap can be built. As each person can decide to change their own weights for that new Nym, this can be settled quickly. For example both Faustine and Aimee had initially interesting posts, but over time cracks appeared, lowering their repcap, etc... Their repcaps would have initially jumped up and then dropped. Of course those that choose to opt out, should be able to do so by simply not opting in the first place, though they might find it hard to do business with those that do... Note that everyone should be able to read all postings, and repcap metamessages at any time without participating. Flaws of course are that trust is not transitive (however, a system of personal weights can ameliorate this), and that past behavior is not a guarantee of future behavior (Nym's can go insane, or be cured of insanity, can relapse, can sell/buy Nyms.) Any other flaws? Again, this is a ficticious example of a reasonable system. It will likely never work here on this mailing list, though another mailing list like system can be created, though it would require both clients and reputation servers. The examples of people I used are entirely ficticious any resemblance to real humans is coincidental, parental discretion advised. This message will burp itself in ten seconds, though you will have to change its diapers all by yourself. ----------------------Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos--------------------------- + ^ + :Surveillance cameras|Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\ \|/ :aren't security. A |share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\ <--*-->:camera won't stop a |monitor, or under your keyboard, you \/|\/ /|\ :masked killer, but |don't email them, or put them on a web \|/ + v + :will violate privacy|site, and you must change them very often. --------_sunder_(a)_sunder_._net_------- http://www.sunder.net ------------

1 0

CNN.com - Bush defends tribunals, saying 'we're at war' - November 29, 2001
by Jim Choate 30 Nov '01

30 Nov '01

Bush is full of shit. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/11/29/gen.war.against.terror/index.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

7 8