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Re: The Censorware Summit: A Preview, from The Netly News
by Antonomasia 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1173,00.html > >The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com) >July 16, 1997 > >The Censorware Summit >by Declan McCullagh (declan(a)well.com) > Today, Friedland and more than a score of industry and nonprofit > groups are visiting the White House to promote technical means of > stopping Junior from visiting playboy.com. President Clinton is > expected to endorse such measures over attempts to revive broad > criminal laws like the ill-fated Communications Decency Act, which he > supported. But this new approach suffers from all sorts of problems. A UK computer vendor (I forget which) deals in its catalogue with the possible concerns of parents at internet content in this way. It suggests that the computer is in a family room where parents can readily see what Junior is up to. Common sense or what ? Bubba can keep his nose out. > Rep. Bob Goodlatte > (R-Va.), a staunch CDA supporter who will be at today's summit. "They > said we can't go that route. I'm certainly interested in developing > other options. I want to put the burden on pornographers. One of the > ways to do that is to have Congress pass legislation that would make > it difficult for people to misrate their web site." And I (poor ignorant thing) thought that pornmasters wanted their sites recognised for what they are to attract visitors. -- ############################################################### # Antonomasia ant(a)notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ###############################################################

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Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan McCullagh wrote: > Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting > > Below we see an excellent example of the naivete inherent in > Net-libertarian and cypherpunk writing. Obviously the writer does not > understand the complexities and challenges of Washington politics. In many > ways, it is like sausage being made: disgusting to watch, but a process > that results in the compromises so vital in a healthy democracy. I don't see Cypherpunks being naieve about the need to compromise in order for people to live together, but I think Cypherpunks recognize the difference between things which are inviolate and those which are not. e.g. - A group of people in a liferaft with food and poison. Debate over how much each of us can eat from a pool of food held in common may be open to compromise, but debate over whether any individual can-or-cannot-or-*must* eat poison to end suffering or "for the good of the collective" should *not* be open to compromise of the individual's right to self-determination. The problem is that the "solution" to every "problem," in the eyes of LEA's and the legislature, is to compromise rights and freedoms that are guaranteed by the Constitution. The problem is that many of the purported "problems" involve people passing judgement on the interests and actions of others and their "solution" is to criminalize other's actions on the basis of their own sense of guilt and shame. The problem is that those promoting "compromise" often have an agenda that is based on a series of compromises leading to complete abrogation of the other's position. {A prime example is the "compromise" of making already-legal crypto "legal" in return for agreeing to criminalizing other currently legal actions.) > Which is why it is inappropriate to criticize the White House's position > on the CDA. If you speak your mind aloud, you run the risk of being > marginalized like the ACLU. How can you serve your constituents then? If you are taking a reasonable, rational stance on issues and are marginalized or cut out of the loop in order for the government to disenfranchise your constituents, then you can serve your constituents by taking up arms against the criminals who are subverting the will of the people. > I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the > Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to > remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental > liberties in the process. Duh... I certainly hope you are talking about giving up your *own* fundamental liberties to remain in "the game" (which you have every right to do). However, if you are indeed representing constituents (or readers), then you are also giving up their liberties, as well, to a certain extent. I think you need to do some serious thinking about the difference between compromising in order to defend a position and compromising in order to "remain a player in the game." If you are not strong enough to defend a position of principle and survive, then you should not be the one "in the game" defending that position. The ACLU and the NRA "marginalize" and "compromise" themselves, it is not the government, the public, or their members "doing it *to*" them. As far as I am concerned, what compromises you make in order to remain in a position to report on the beltway is your own decision to make. I just hope you have the wit and wisdom to walk with the Devil only as far as the bridge, because he always burns it behind him, and few make it back. TruthMonger

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Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting
by John Deters 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This message was also To: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com>, but apparently algebra.com eats messages with more than one To: recipient. From: John Deters <jad> Subject: Re: White House "kinder, gentler"-CDA/censor empowerment meeting In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970716080230.15247L-100000(a)well.com> At 08:03 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you [Declan McCullagh] wrote: >I can only conclude that because Mr. Finkelstein does not live inside the >Beltway, we cannot expect him to realize that it is always necessary to >remain players in the game -- even if it means giving up fundamental >liberties in the process. Declan, I think you made a phrasing error here. Perhaps you meant to say that you think it, "prudent to hold your tongue when speaking to the White House if you want a gold-engraved invitation back." To some people, it read like you were saying "give up fundamental liberties to free speech in order to 'protect the children.'" Either way, there's not much difference there: political speech MUST remain the 'most protected of all', and if someone is afraid of speaking their mind during a debate, then we've all lost. However, I think you've missed the ACLU point of NOT "playing the game". They're not trying to get on (or stay on) the short invitation list to whatever dog-n-pony show the White House trots out next. Their concern is for the Constitution, that it be followed BY EVERYONE, and that it doesn't get trampled completely by bad laws written by ignorant lawmakers. When the ACLU was not "invited" to a meeting where the entire purpose seems be that of passing another bad law to circumvent the first amendment without pissing off the same ACLU, don't you agree that perhaps the White House made a tactical error? IMHO, the ACLU should be a part of the lawmaking *process*. Rather than passing bad laws and checking for their constitutionality on the back end by people desperate enough to gamble on the outcome of a long, expensive legal process, I think we'd all be a lot better off checking for constituonal laws before we pass them at all. According to the Constitution, that's the President's job (it's what he said when he took the oath), but we all know that he only sees his job to be that of "the biggest congressman of all, gotta follow the polls of the whole nation." Perhaps the "three strikes and you're out" rule could apply to Congress: if you vote for three laws that are overturned by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional, you go to jail for 25 years to life, no parole. Debate the new laws all you want, but when it comes down to casting your vote, you'd better be certain you're not violating the Constitution. We need more accountability on the front end of the legal process, because the average among us can't afford to gamble on the back end. John -- J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code. Think of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'." +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work) mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of: | | Subject: get pgp key | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit (fwd)
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:32:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> To: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Rep. Rick White on White House censorware summit FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Connie Correll July 16, 1997 (202) 225-1201 (O)/ (202) 237-2136 (H) e-mail: connie.correll(a)mail.house.gov WHITE ATTENDS WHITE HOUSE CONFERENCE QUESTIONS GOVERNMENT SOLUTION (Washington, D.C.) -- Congressman Rick White (R-First District) today made clear his desire to protect kids who use the Internet but expressed concern that the federal government can solve the problem. White's remarks were made during his participation in a closed meeting at the White House that focused on making the Internet family friendly. "I have four children who love to use the Net and there is no question we need to protect our kids from harmful material on the Internet. Today's meeting was a step in the right direction," said White. "But as we evaluate the next step we need to make sure we don't lure ourselves into a false sense of security. No matter what we do in the United States it won't affect sites developed in Amsterdam or Bangkok. That's why I'm skeptical that the federal government can solve this problem. The real solution will come from the smart people in the private sector." White today praised representatives of the software community, the Administration as well as family and civil liberty groups for their efforts to develop a comprehensive solution for a family friendly Internet. He encouraged the development of filtering software but expressed concern that a government based solution would be too restrictive and regulatory. White has long been a leader in keeping the Internet free from federal regulation. As a member of the select committee that developed the final telecommunications reform bill last year, White offered a compromise proposal to the CDA that would protect kids. The compromise included a proposal, defeated by one vote, to replace the "indecency" standard with the "harmful to minors" standard. Other provisions of White's compromise became part of the final bill. Those provisions included: 1) developing strong, effective laws that target wrongdoers; 2) using parental empowerment software to screen material; and 3) providing incentives for industry to develop new screening technologies. In March of 1996 White formed the Congressional Internet Caucus (IC) to help educate Members of Congress about the Internet. White believes through the work of the Internet Caucus and with the help of the Internet community, Capitol Hill has gained a better understanding of the Internet.

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Re: Stronghold
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dimitri007 wrote: >It is becoming increasingly obvious that John Young is the real >troublemaker here. I wouldn't doubt that it was John who was >behind the original troubles between Vulis and Sameer. >I think that John Young should be forcefully unsubscribed from >the Cypherpunks mailing lists. Heh, do me! Forcefully unsubscribed means *plonk* -- not seen much lately but once frequently wanked here. Troublemaking is the very essence of this cypherjerk joint, no? Does anyone but me remember that the whole Vulis, moderation, censorship, Stronghold shit started with Tim dissing Dimitri by mocking the [spit] locution (or that's when I first paid attention to the thread -- Tim's and Dimitri's rude humor slurs are their best shots). Dimitri then getting pissed at the dis (or faking it), then counter-assaulting Tim with multiple personalities, then both master peronnae-fakers going at each other through clones, acolytes and yes-bossers to capture the other's reputation capital, both operatically yodelling innocence unfairly ravaged, both raging with highest of principles at the accusations of come-fuck-me-darling lowest-level behavior. Anonymic and pseudonymic chaff flooded in and jammed the putative brilliant list signal. Seeing an opening for righteous evangelism, other high-minder fakirs intervened to protect the list's pristine virtue with prophylatic measures, which leaked, were malfitting, or were rejected by all-natural studs and mares lusting for unmediated self-abuse. Whores spitting at whores, male and female and crossovers it was, and is. Recall these periodic pitbull fights instigated with Tim by those foolish to challenge him, those who think there are limits to all-natural sex. Great liars, the Net's multiple personna double-cross-addressers . Whose willing to bet that Tim and Dimitri, their adherents, are not in bed with, may even be the same as, the Totos, the Mongershitters, the who? None of this compares to meisterwerk slurring which heavenly rents this forum.

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Re: HeavensGate Mirror incomplete/censored
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We decided to ditch the Pathfinder mirror site after a few weeks. The difference in the heavensgate.com and pathfinder.com sites was due, I remember, to the fact that we grabbed our copy from the heavensgatetoo.com site, which wasn't quite identical. -Declan At 03:28 +2037 3/31/5, Edgar W Swank wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Mike Duvos recently posted here > > For complete information on the impending recycling of the planet > earth, and instructions for entering the Kingdom Level above > Human, try the mirror at... > > http://www.pathfinder.com/news/heavensgate > >I was able, finally, to get through to the original site > > http://www.heavensgate.com > >and I noticed the mirror site does not include two links present >in the original > > Earth Exit Statements by Students > > Exit Press Release: > "Away Team" Returns to Level Above Human > >which are perhaps the most interesting for "outsiders." The last >one starts > > RANCHO SANTA FE, CA -- By the time you receive this, we'll be gone -- > several dozen of us. ... > >And offers these instructions for stragglers ... > > During a brief window of time, some may wish to follow us. If > they do, it will not be easy. The requirement is to not only > believe who the Representatives are, but, to do as they and we > did. You must leave everything of your humanness behind. This > includes the ultimate sacrifice and demonstration of faith -- > that is, the shedding of your human body. If you should choose > to do this, logistically it is preferred that you make this > exit somewhere in the area of the West or Southwest of the > United States -- but if this is not possible -- it is not > required. You must call on the name of TI and DO to assist > you. In so doing, you will engage a communication of sorts, > alerting a spacecraft to your location where you will be picked > up after shedding your vehicle, and taken to another world -- > by members of the Kingdom of Heaven. > >Edgar W. Swank <EdgarSwank(a)Juno.com> > (preferred) >Edgar W. Swank <cryoprez(a)jps.net> > (for files/msgs >50K) >Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: 2.6.2 > >iQCVAwUBM0Ve8N4nNf3ah8DHAQHc0wP/SEC42UUnfke6+XhnTBjC52KqJEEo8df/ >3HctUa4eQqOBmQAIlk9YP/BpYjhSMyXaFTb9Af9AuzUbyKZIiBJcLTqaIv9MEo/q >EKYbXs3kNI2bP/txTyqNo0BVnXIW6h7infnEE5lJp+xc5d5ci5beIiMXVQxYinEl >o+VsLWmezC8= >=WsOo >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------- Declan McCullagh Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/

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Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
by Ross Wright 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Marc: What a bunch of crap! Keep out of the internet, you government flunky. Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in it's new home, Cyberspace. And save your regulations for someone who needs them. On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg(a)epic.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:16:47 -0500 > From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg(a)epic.org> > To: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu > Subject: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship > > > Here is an example of a proposal being presented > at the White House today. =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: (408) 259-2795

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DefCon revisited -- other reports on the conference
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

My report on DefCon is at: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/16/netly.news/index.html Attached are some followup notes from conference attendees. -Declan ********** Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:26:23 -0800 From: Szechuan Death <sdeath(a)ackphft.matsu.alaska.edu> Subject: Def Con 5 Summary God _DAMN_ that was fun!!! >;-> (Despite the fact that I lost a shoe running away from a security guard, and had to pitch the other one and my Rastafarian wig to satisfy my paranoia about getting caught, it was well worth it... besides, the barbed-wire gouges are healing nicely, and I'll be getting a tetanus shot tomorrow...) Let's see - my picks for Best of 'Con: Mudge, because he's damned good (even if he _does_ work with NT) Bruce Schneier, because he's - Bruce Schneier... Val, for the dress (I still think the boots were masochistic, tho) and Winn Schwartau for being such a good sport at Hacker Jeopardy, even if he _did_ sound eerily like Alex Trebek. Next year (if they have a Def Con next year) I'm coming back with a power drill, Security Hex drivers, and a set of black pajamas - one of those security cameras _will_ be mine... _Are_ they going to have a Def Con next year? Please say yes - Def Con 6 is something to look forward to through a bleak and cold Alaskan winter... >;-> ********** Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:57:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Fyodor <fyodor(a)dhp.com> Subject: DC5 Wow, the list sure is quiet. I imagine this is because everyone is recovering from last weekend! And probably reading their overflowing mailboxes. Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'. So how did it go?? Us lamers who couldn't make it want to know. Speaking of which, did anyone get a video tape together? I'll buy it! What did Mudge talk about? Did he expose any gaping holes? He tends to do that sometimes. What about *Hobbit*? Did he give any new information, or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper? And how was the bitch? Did anyone go to her "discussion"? Did it go as "well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?. [...] ********** Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:44:51 -0400 (EDT) From: krys <krystali(a)safari.net> Subject: Re: DC5 > Wow, the list sure is quiet. I imagine this is because everyone is > recovering from last weekend! And probably reading their overflowing > mailboxes. Or at least repeatedly pressing 'd'. I can't speak for the rest of the list, but I'm still walking around in a dazed state, and hearing the ching-ching of thousands of slot machines in my head. Apparently, it's going to take me a bit longer than anticipated to recover. > What did Mudge talk about? Did he expose any gaping holes? He tends to > do that sometimes. What about *Hobbit*? Did he give any new information, > or was it mostly a rehash of his (excellent) CIFS paper? Mudge and Hobbit ended up combining their talks, and they were both excellent, and quite informative. They spoke on various NT issues, including CIFS and SMB and Microsoft's rehashing of bad password schemes among other things. Unfortunately, I was still half asleep at the time. I hope someone got audio of this - I'd really like a copy. > And how was the bitch? Did anyone go to her "discussion"? Did it go as > "well" as her IRC chats (before she was canceled)?. The Happy Hacker Panel was a blast. Disorder did a great job of fielding questions, as did Matt. Jon and Bronc were a lot more quiet, but they answered some questions as well. Carolyn did a great job of making a fool of herself. We did learn a few things, though: 1. Carolyn hacks her toaster. 2. Carolyn thinks sending http commands to the ssh port is a good idea. 3. Carolyn doesn't mind asking stupid questions. (This one was a real shocker.) 4. Dis and 303 went to a lot of trouble to get Carolyn a copy of "Secrets of a Super Hacker", which they so kindly had everyone autograph. Alas, she already owned a copy. 5. One of Carolyn's favorite hacking methods is calling people and asking them for their root password. > Has anyone done a write-up of the highlights of the experience? I noticed > that Declan has a brief piece on the Netlynews today. He'll probably post > the first couple paragraphs here anyway, so I'll save him the trouble: The only thing I've seen so far, other than what you posted from NetlyNews, was a horrible AP piece, also posted here. > Well, hopefully others will enlighten us with their DC5 experience when > things calm down a bit. Other than the lack of a working T1, I thought most things went well. It's a shame se7en's speech was scheduled at the same time as the happy hacker panel, though. I would have liked to hear what he had to say. Uhm.. has anyone else heard rumor of the hotel's satellite dishes being piled up on the 26th floor? -krys ************ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:58:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Xservo <servo(a)garbage.netrox.net> Subject: Re: DC5 26th floor? well i do know there the coax ended up (flea). yeah i saw someone running down the hall with a dish and thought 'oh we are going to have a satellite phone for demo' then i was told to "move, you didn't see anything" uhhh ok..... wtf! -xs ------------------------- Declan McCullagh Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/

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Re: The Real Plan: Making the Net Safe for Censorship
by Ross Wright 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On or About 16 Jul 97 at 18:12, Lizard wrote: > At 04:47 PM 7/16/97 -0700, Ross Wright wrote: > >Marc: > > > >What a bunch of crap! Keep out of the internet, you government > >flunky. Let business, commerce and freedom of speech remain in > >it's new home, Cyberspace. And save your regulations for someone > >who needs them. > > You will get a lot more respect on the net once you learn how to > read messages. I'll leave it you to figure out what you got wrong. Umm, I think I understood the message, and Mr. Rotenberg's involvement in the politics of censorship, as it relates to the Internet. > Sheesh. And I retreated to mailing lists to get away from this kind > of stuff on USENET. What? I just feel that there should be no laws or resolutions or promises made or kept by the United States Government about the internet. On or About 16 Jul 97 at 14:42, Declan McCullagh wrote, about something that Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg(a)epic.org> wrote: >On the other hand, without a proper law, See, when they say "without" that means they think we need one. >parents can purchase and >activate measures to protect their children from adult material and >still not feel secure in their homes from unwanted material. Ohhhh, so scary. Not safe in the home! Imagine that. >This is >because negligent publishing of data eventually allows material that >can harm the child to enter the home. Once this material is >experienced by the child, its damage is done. There is no "oops" >factor, no way to undo the unwanted intrusion into a child's >innocence. Parental supervision? What ever happened to that? >Most importantly, any Internet law must not censor thought. It may >regulate the labeling on the packaging but never the content. Most importantly, I don't want any Internet law. ANY. Just my opinion. >With the goal of achieving a greater spirit of cooperation between >the publisher and the receiver of online data, we propose the Online >Cooperative Publishing Act. I don't want ANY Act. Knock it off. Keep out. Stay away. Save your Acts for someone who needs them. Ross =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: (408) 259-2795

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Re: Fuck You Rating Systems, Inc.
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anonymous wrote: > > ANNOUNCEMENT: Fuck You Ratings Software Escapes Beta-Test! ... > {Offer not valid in states where having sexual relations with animals > is against local ordinances.} Are there any cypherpunks in Montana who are willing to serve as a mail-drop for the rest of us?

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