- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Will Bell get the rest of us in trouble?
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May wrote: > However, the focus, at least for why he has been denied bail, is strongly > on the "assassination politics" essays and communications, and on > "overthrowing the government" sorts of things. (This according to the > affidavit, and according to what Greg Broiles relayed from Bell's > court-appointed lawyer.) Actually, I haven't spoken with Bell's attorney, but John Young did. My comments about Jim and his situation, jail policies, etc., are based on reading the search warrant docs, the complaint, and on a general understanding of the practical/applied side of criminal law. I don't have any knowledge about the specific facts of this case that aren't on my site or John Young's. Several of us from C2Net did talk with Jim's mom on the telephone a day or two after the raid, but didn't learn anything that hasn't been covered in the various newspaper articles about the case. Has anyone read/heard anything about the nature of the grand jury proceedings which are scheduled? The articles I've seen have suggested that perhaps Jim will get good news from the grand jury - but I'm wondering if it's not the federal prosecutor's way to seek *more* charges, fish for more evidence (witnesses can be subpoena'd to testify before the grand jury, and aren't allowed to have their own counsel present with them in the hearing room during their testimony, although they are allowed to take the Fifth) and/or try out some of the weirder conspiracy/militia stuff in front of more or less ordinary citizens. A grand jury indictment (or refusal to indict) is a good way for a prosecutor to deflect scrutiny/publicity from their own decisions, and blame the outcome on a third party. If they indict, the prosecutor points to their decision as proof that s/he isn't just indulging a personal vendetta against the defendant. If they don't indict, the prosecutor can point out that s/he did their best but was thwarted by a third party. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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Virtual picketing
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I think that analogies are useful to illustrate a point, but a poor basis for making new laws or new policies. I think it makes more sense to look at the reasoning behind the first policy, and/or the combination of conditions and policies that created it, and see if they're present (or not) in the situation which seems to require a new policy. In the particular case of the Internet, I don't think it's at all clear that a public highway is the best (or only) analogy which is appropriate - for example, one could also draw an analogy to a *freeway* .. which, at least in many places, are not open to picketers or pedestrians of any sort. Another easy analogy is to the postal service - it's more or less government-run (haven't kept track of the precise line that's drawn), but there's certainly no right to "picket" communications sent using this government-owned media .. I don't get to add extra pages to letters that my neighbors get, nor they to mine. And there's no First Amendment problem there - if I want to communicate with someone about an issue, I can send them mail. Third parties have no right to interfere, nor to learn our names so that they can bombard us with mail. And the same is true for communications sent by private carriers like FedEx and UPS, even where those private carriers use public facilities like roads and sidewalks and airports to carry on their private businesses, delivering private communications. Incidental use of a public facility does not nationalize a private person/organization. (I think the argument is stronger where a private party monopolizes a public resource - but I suspect that my gut reaction to that isn't compatible with what courts are doing these days.) This discussion is getting waylaid with a host of weakly-related and poorly-understood legal doctrines - e.g., a "right to picket", "public forums", and "right to privacy". Instead of getting bogged down in those tarpits (or distracted by their attractive pseudo-official flavor), let's focus on the real question(s) at hand. I understand to proposal to be that it'd be somehow beneficial if the government interferes with communications between consenting parties if the communication happens to touch or utilize a publically owned/funded resource ... or that such interference is allowed or required by the First Amendment. I think that presents a much clearer and more fundamental First Amendment question - e.g., can the government force me to say things I don't want to say? Can the government intercept speech from me to another person and preface or wrap it with some sort of counterargument provided by people who disagree with me? I think the answer is (and should be) a slam-dunk "no". No tricky analogies needed. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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NetAction -- another big government "cyberliberty" group
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

*sigh* --Declan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:34:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Audrie Krause <akrause(a)igc.apc.org> To: declan(a)well.com Cc: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: Micro$oft Monitor: Sidewalk Spam Sorry, Declan, I don't share your rather naive belief that industry is going to regulate itself. At 01:37 AM 6/1/97 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: >Glad to see Net Action is pointing out potential privacy violations or >potential for spam (though there seems to be no evidence saying Microsoft >in fact has sent such spam). > >But what I find interesting is that NetAction is using the Net, the >press, the media to broadcast Microsoft's bad privacy policies. Then >people can choose to visit or not, or to read the notice more carefully. > >Thus I see no need for FTC rulemaking. I hope that is what NetAction will >be saying to the FTC. Etrust is another solution NetAction should support. >

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RE: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
by Paul Bradley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> As to the Children of OKC, people who turn the care of their children > over to government employees or contractors do not place too high a > value on those children. I certainly don`t agree that a high value was not placed on the lives of the children by their parents, but the parents were guilty of naivety, stupidity and placing the children at risk. > think those children who died weren't cared for? You are a sick person who > should seriously consider therapy. Anyone who read this and said "Yeah!" I certainly feel the parents, though guilty of no crime, have only themselves to blame for the needless deaths of their children. > understand this? There is no reason to blow up kids. It's wrong. For any > reason. Of course, but the children shouldn`t have been there in the first place. McVeigh, if he did it, is guilty of murder, on those children alone. He commited an initiation of violence against innocent and defenceless human beings, this is why I believe the bomber, whoever he/she is, should die for their crimes, BUT, the childrens lives were placed at risk by their parents because they believed they would be safe in a federal government building, very bad move. I`m not absolving McVeigh from guilt, just pointing out basic facts. > who may be important to you have parents who "care" about them enough to > scour the planet to find a good,safe day care that isn't withing the blast > radius or > shooting range of : > > A government office. > A large corporations headquarters. > A law firm. > A post office. > A town square. > A restaurant. > A bank. > Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and go loopy. > Anywhere some asshole might have a car be drunk and go loopy. > Anywhere some asshole might have a gun and a car and be drunk and go loopy. The bottom 3 suggestions are clearly an excessive over-generalisation of the point, the parents could not really be reasonably expected to believe their children would be harmed by a crazed gunman. As for the drunk driver, do you let your kids run unattended on busy roads? Placing them in a federal building was a stupid act, not criminal, but most definitely not the act of a sensible person. > To all the dipshits who could possibly think otherwise. I should also > mention it is an EQUALLY fucked up thing to blow up adults. Depends who those adults are, as I said in a post yesterday, I do not subscribe to the "save the children!" mentality, and killing an innocent adult is as criminal as killing an innocent child, but those children could not possibly have initiated agression against McVeigh, because they were under the age of criminal responsibility (which is a hazy area, but I think this case is pretty clear cut). Blowing up guilty, evil, and government affiliated adults is to be highly commended. > Like my fellow Santa Clara County Resident Bill Frantz said : > > For cypherpunks this comes down to: Make code, not bombs. True, code will lead to further liberation in the virtual communities, but bombs are an effective device for ending the corrupt tyrannical government that rules us. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Maneuvering the Instruments of Control Through Deception
by Michael Pierson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Watching the rapid fire succession of Administration rulings and gambits, and the developments of various contending legislative proposals and industry initiatives, along with all the debate over the differing implications and portents of this distracting plethora of moves and countermoves, has made for quite an intriguing spectacle. In particular, the recent controversies over threatening elements in the SAFE bill and the motives of the legislators involved, as well as the contentions concerning Netscape's aims or quality of judgment in its latest key recovery announcements reminded me of some lines from R.G.H. Siu's _The Craft of Power_: ...There is an increasing need as time goes on for a voluntary surrender of freedom on the part of the people at large or at least for a relative passivity toward encroachments on it. An essential instrument for bringing this predisposition into being is propaganda. The purpose of your propaganda, then, should not be sympathetic education but subtle manipulation. [...] Orthodoxy should not comprise your primary objective in propaganda, but what Jaques Ellul has called orthopraxy. This is "an action that in itself, and not because of the value judgments of the person who is acting, leads directly to a goal, which for the individual is not a conscious and intentional objective to be attained, but which is considered such by the propagandist." Knowing the real action to be taken in furtherance of the objective behind the informational barrage, the propagandist "maneuvers the instrument that will secure this action." I thought Lucky Green keenly observed what might be considered an example of this process in action when a while back on the Cryptography list he wrote: > This simply attests to the thoroughness with which the GAK forces > have managed to frame the debate. There is zero need for key recover > if the goal is to locally obtain plaintext. However, the vast > majority of large businesses out there have been convinced that they > need key recovery to achieve this goal. > Therefore they are now demanding to be given a specific method for > achieving this goal, the method most beneficial to outside forces. > A truly brilliant deception. It is certainly a sly move, but like other sleights of hand, it benefits when a certain naivete is present in its targets. For businesses, there is an additional economic calculus involved that can sometimes make the deceptions harder to discern, or easier to swallow, or both to varying degrees. But for the adamant opponents of GAK, these subterfuges should not seem so obscure. It's clear by now that the core pro-GAK forces have a good appreciation of Sun Tzu's dictum that "All warfare is based on deception." There are some other passages from Sun Tzu that seem somewhat topical to recent events. In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory. Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and the moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four season's, they pass away to return once more. ...Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy on the move maintains deceitful appearances, according to which the enemy will act. He sacrifices something, that the enemy may snatch at it. By holding out baits, he keeps him on the march; then with a body of picked men he lies in wait for him. Of course, the nature of the battlefield and the makeup of the forces contending are more complicated, subtle, and considerably more abstracted than the matters that Sun Tzu was concerned with. Nevertheless, certain themes remain timeless in warfare both military and psycho-political. Documents that EPIC and others have managed to acquire through FOIA requests show that duplicity has been part of the game plan on this issue since prior to the Klinton Administration. The hardcore surveillance state forces have long subscribed to the principle that "In war, practice dissimulation, and you will succeed." My impression is that they have adhered pretty consistently to that principle so far. It seems that some of the internecine controversy of late amongst the various factions in general opposition to GAK and other forms of privacy escrow and intrusion, to varying degrees, comes from disagreements regarding the relative merit or malignancy of differing political approaches and the motivations of the political actors involved. In part, this can depend upon where on the Anarchist-Minarchist-Benevolent_social_welfare_state spectrum they come from, and the intensity of their mistrust, or outright hostility, toward the process and role of government, but numerous other factors are involved. Many of these disagreements are valid and will continue (hopefully, though, not to the point of serving the purposes of the main adversary). One could argue that some who might really believe they are trying to preserve privacy will end up undermining it instead. The road to hell can indeed be paved with good intensions, as well as bad, naive, opportunistic, calculating, or craven... But in a broader strategic sense, those paving the road to hell, or what they are paving it with, can be less important than understanding the mentality of those who sway its course there, and the means they use to achieve their ends. Chief among these means is their use of deceit. Deception and sophistry are time honored tactics of those who want to build a more intrusive authoritarian state. The people who have promoted the kind of "2 + 2 = 5" reasoning that's been used to rationalize things like "good faith" exceptions to the Fourth Amendment, or the contemptible mockery of due process represented by government's abuse of civil forfeiture, are of essentially the same ilk as those who now expect citizens to accept assurances about "lawful authorization" and due process when it comes to their promotion of CALEA and GAK. The fearmongering exaggerations and misrepresentations that are spread by GAK proponents are part of a larger pattern as well. David Burnam's excellent 1996 book on the Justice Department _Above The Law_ does a good job of documenting some of this with respect to the flagrantly misleading representations of national crime statistics by the FBI and others early in the Clinton administration and before, and provides some useful perspective on their more recent claims concerning the need for new electronic surveillance infrastructures and encryption controls. It isn't simply the talent for facile deceit that characterizes the effective surveillance state advocate, but also the ability to maintain a pious pretense (and rarely perhaps even the self-delusion) of support for privacy and civil liberties while pushing the policies that undermine these very things. Senator Kerry's remarks on his Orwellianly titled "The Secure Public Networks Act" come to mind. A particularly telling and ironic example of this appears in a transcript from the FBI website of a speech given by Director Freeh in Krakow Poland during June 1994: "The Nazi terror began not by breaking the law but by using the law. The morning after the Reichstag fire in February, 1933, President Von Hindenburg was persuaded by Hitler to invoke Article 48 of the Weimar Constitution. This emergency provision of the national law was the key to its elimination. It enabled Hitler to suspend individual and civil liberties, freedom of speech, press and assembly; it allowed warrantless searches of homes and the seizure of property without due process of law. [...] SS and SA members then started a wave of political violence which culminated in a March, 1933, Enabling Act granting dictatorial powers to Hitler. Hitler's brutal usurpation and exercise of power was in part carried out by clever use of the police and the corruptly controlled enactment of new laws." One wonders how Mr. Freeh went about reconciling this knowledge of history with his role as point man for the Clinton Administration's attempts to stampede legislation for new "anti-terrorism" powers following Oklahoma and last summers TWA explosion/Olympic bombing episodes. As Freeh's remarks reveal, the role terrorism has played in promoting the agendas of authoritarian statists has been quite notable. Terrorism's major consequences in history appear largely to have been to serve the expansion of the domestic powers of the states targeted, not the furtherance of the agendas of the terrorists responsible (or allegedly responsible). In fact, some states have found terrorism so valuable in this regard that when terrorists did not exist, it was necessary to invent them (or facilitate them, or exaggerate their threat). The state's concerted cultivation and fanning of fear and hysteria in relation to acts of terrorism (with the aid of the major mass media) is a increasingly refined art form. It's role has become so significant that it deserves a name. I call it State Sponsored Hysterrorism. While acts or threats of terrorism are the the most valuable adjunct to the exploitation of hysterrorism; fear mongering concerning other major bogeymen, most notably the specter of drugs, pornography and pedophilia, can occasionally be used to achieve the requisite level of alarmed herd psychology, and the extra marginalization of reasoned deliberation necessary to serve the ends of the hysterrorists. I think the U.S. Government's campaign of hysterrorism following the TWA explosion/Olympic-Park bombing is a case study for what we can expect in the future. The political exploitation of this event was a contingency plan in waiting for the right bomb to go off somewhere. Next time, they will be even more prepared. There might be a few in the anti-GAK camp who are still inclined to entertain the notion that the Clinton administration's actions with regard to GAK and CALEA have been largely due to them being misguided, or benighted, or gullibly enthralled with apocalyptic scenarios drawn by secret intelligence reports, and crime threats painted by latter-day Hoovers. Perhaps they believe that if the Clintonites could only be made to understand the futility of attaining their "professed" objectives, they would be reasonable. But the fact (from my vantage) is that following the Oklahoma bombing, and even more egregiously, following the the TWA/Olympic events last summer, this administration dishonestly promoted and endeavored to exploit public fear and the political intimidation that could be derived from that fear in a cynical attempt to stampede the ill-considered passage of legislation granting sweeping new surveillance powers to the government. These attempts to subvert and hot-wire the legislative process in this regard, as well as the disingenuous shell games they have played with their succession of Clipper and key escrow/recovery proposals and initiatives, have cast serious doubt in my mind on the quality of their principles, misguided or otherwise. I view the government's exploitation of occurances of terrorism and hysterrorism to be the most potent potential threat to privacy and civil liberties we face. The stage is now being set by an increasing drumbeat of warnings, news specials, and so forth about the threat of more exotic forms of Nuclear, Chemical or Biological attack. I recall a melodramatic news piece a while back where a reporter sensationally demonstrated how easy it was to get a shoebox-sized container filled with test-tubes on a subway train, and a host of "experts" were interviewed about the potential pandora's box of nasty possibilities awaiting us in the years to come. A few weeks ago, a forum on terrorism in Atlanta, organized by Former Senator Nunn and attended by Defense Secretary Cohen and others, brought lurid speculation on things like the future development of custom engineered viral pathogens, and warnings about "the Internet transmitting knowledge to people all over the globe in how to make weapons of mass destruction." One gets the impression like they can't wait until their menacing forecasts are validated. The message is that uncontrolled Information is Threat, and that we're going to need protection from many new forms of Data Crime in our Fearful New World. Sadly, considering the public at-large's current suseptibility to the politics of fear, it probably wouldn't take much to sell this message. Major acts of terrorism aren't the worry of those who most want the institution of intrusive state powers, it's their secret wish. The Friend's of Big Brother are holding some strong cards, but many of them rely on appeals to fear and ignorance. Their ability to deceive, mislead, distract, ensnare, market fictions, manage perceptions, and structure the terms of debates to their advantage can be quite formidable at times. It was fortunate that they miscalculated early on concerning the political repercussions from the persecution of Phil Zimmermann and the ham-handed Clipper_I proposal. While they continue to make tactical errors which can be exploited, they are refining their approach as time goes on, and their more successful tactics can be considerably less obvious than their blunders. Perhaps having discovered the drawbacks of frontal assaults, one of their new guiding principles might be "when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away". Insidious machinations (stego-politics?) are more challenging to counter, but like other forms of legerdemain, knowing what to look for makes the artifice easier to discern and derail, however deftly done. - From the surveillance statist's perspective on the public, it is indeed true that "Ignorance is Strength". While the "Knowledge is Power" forces may be outgunned in certain respects, they do have the advantage of not being hampered by the need to conceal duplicity. The ultimate solutions to preserving privacy may turn out to be technical, but whether one is an avowed cryptoanarchist, or a libertarian (!'L') type with mixed minarchist inclinations (sort of like me), or whatever, in the near term, developments in the political arena are far from irrelevant. The state's most serious opponents to privacy well understand the value of swaying public perceptions and attitudes. Their best hope is to find a way to shape public and congressional opinion in a way that will allow them to get restrictions on unconditionally secure encryption passed into law, the sooner the better. The longer they can be delayed and stymied, the less likely they are to succeed. In any case, we should be careful not to play into their hands, or provide them with material to facilitate their efforts to foster fears. In the words of Sun Tzu, "the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans" -- not to serve them. In the struggle to defend our privacy, personal sovereignty, and liberty in general, there will be disagreements over where the enemy lies, and how to best take aim against it. Whatever the disagreements, I hope we can at least manage to avoid standing in a circle as we fire. -Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM5atg9GJlWF+GPx9AQGbDAP/eTXxm6GXvDRlEltMI7HYH95qO45NxME2 L8J/q0FKDwPlH9gIWHUoKQO/5SxzQfJf9kmnyY4qgo7dxpB7W8IAg9bHMWCiv8G7 kTI4rEFhfBQj+rnXS3hTSgR95CRL6vbjgz4k/ojvRTKMucAVehiymhj5TBaw1FRl F/OKkaPFjAM= =IKeA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: McVeigh? Nimrods.....
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Thu, Jun 05, 1997 at 12:14:20AM -0400, frissell(a)panix.com wrote: >>Yes, some pathetic strange little boys swaggering around in never-never >>land. Lonely individuals with shriveled hearts, stunted morals, and >>feverish imaginations, who brag contemptuously of their superiority >>over "sheeple", and boast of their heroic roles in the coming >>revolution. > >I hope you're not referring to Lucky, or Time May, or me. Lucky has a >successful career in a computer-related field. Tim was exceedingly well- >integrated into the work force at Intel and did a great deal of valuable and >lucrative work for them. I am married with four children (who I never sent to >a government school) and get along well with a host of friends and co-workers. > I have achieved a modicum of success as a writer and speaker. I happen to be >a neo-victorian myself. Clinton has a *very* successful career as a politician, and has done a great deal for Intel, in that role. And he is a great family man who also gets along well with a host of people. I was characterizing the people Lucky described: Some on this list will even say that the kids' deaths fortunately reduced the negative impact their parents can have on the gene pool. If you, Lucky, or Tim hold such sentiments in your heart, then I am referring to you. Lucky's statement that people putting their children in daycare in a federal building are "criminally stupid" is simply contemptible. >Why is it that when someone like Al Gore expresses strong and extremist views >as he did in "Earth in the Lurch" (or whatever that book was called) no one >ever claims that he is " a pathetic strange little boy swaggering around in >never-never land. A lonely individual with a shriveled heart, stunted morals, >and a feverish imagination." Of course, Gore has been called far worse things, many times over. Probably on this very list. You know that, I know that. > >How do you know our hearts are shriveled? Can it be because we can do the >math and figure out the Feds are *much* bigger killers than McVeigh? No Duncan. It's because your first thought is to do that math. It is one thing to be aware of the many, many failings of human beings and their governments. It is another thing to savor rightous anger, keeping score, and thinking of suitable revenge. Besides, who the heck are "the Feds"? What set of human beings are you thinking about? >Why >don't you bleed for *their* victims. I do. Though I wouldn't use that metaphor. >Remember, government's crimes are worse >than private crimes (even apart from the higher body count) because a serious >breach of duty and trust is involved. Keeping score again, eh? Government -5 billion, Duncan 10. >Look, people are bound to disagree over social policy and even right and >wrong. But since everyone is much more powerful than they used to be, >a force- >based monopoly on policy and morality ("others" government) just can't be >sustained anymore. Why on earth would you think that? >Your side just simply doesn't have the artillery. "My" side? You probably mean the "government". If so, you are deluded. If not, you are right -- I personally have only a small armory -- a few automatic weapons, two tactical nukes, some conventional explosives, and a big pocket knife -- just your average homeowner arsenal. >It >would be better for everyone if you would recognize reality, step back, and >allow self-government to replace others-government. I'm not standing in anyone's way, and it wouldn't make any difference at all if I did, because I am an insignificant zero who comforts himself with the thought that being a clown is an honorable profession. That's reality. You should take a hit, sometime -- it's heavy stuff. But you know who really needs a heavy dose -- it's that Bob Hettinga fellow -- his head is shaped strangely like a big brick, and he gets it wedged in the strangest places. > It will happen anyway. Yep. And the second coming is just around the corner, now that the comet has arrived with the mother ship. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent(a)songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

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Can You Handle $50,000?
by Anne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

<HTML><PRE>CAN YOU HANDLE $50,000? First, please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error! You could possibly make at least $50,000 - In less than 90 days! Read the enclosed program ....THEN READ AGAIN.... The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave it serious thought and study to it. So glad I did! Here's my story! My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends, and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. I truly believe it was wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER .... FINANCIALLY!!!!!!! In mid-December, I received this program via email. Six months prior to receiving this I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year ..... it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it. But like I was saying, in December of '92 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further in debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. After determning that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT". Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It cost me about $15.00 for my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to fulfill my orders. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me! In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!". My first step in making $50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS, IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY. RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL". Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 MORE THAN I NEEDED. So, I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, of my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. PLEASE take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER! Remember, it won't work if you DON'T try it! This program DOES WORK, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. THAT DOESN'T WORK, you'll lose out on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the guarantee, 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Christopher Erickson P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! "THREW IT AWAY" I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try". Dawn W., Evansville, IN "NO FREE LUNCH" "My late father always told me, remember, Alan, there is no free lunch. You get out of life what you put into it". Through trial and error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to find the right target group to email it to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000 using this program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me. Alan B., Philadelphia, PA A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about by myself. I had a profitable business for ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate .... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER". The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT". You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagine. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices which market this and several other programs here in the US and overseas. By the Spring, we wish to market the 'internet' by a partnership with AMERICA ON LINE. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000 .... and your name will be on every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you throw this away or delete it from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and paper and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$$$$$$ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume that the mailing receives a 5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. the 5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for 2,000,000 total. The 5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!! Your total income in this example of $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,500!!!!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.....AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2000. Believe me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practially nothing if you go the email route. Email is FREE! REPORT #3 will show you the best methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists. If you go the regular mail route, that also will provide you with a very nice income. The costs for regular mail are higher. THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This multi-level order marketing program works perfectly .... 100% EVERY TIME. If you have a computer, email is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action now!!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-Level Methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45 people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. INSTUCTIONS We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of raising capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before you say "Bull", please read the program very carefully! This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail OrderMarketng anywhere: Step (1) ORDER ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS LISTED BY NAME AND NUMBER. Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4) names listed. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the person LISTED for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International orders should also include $1 extra for postage. It is essential that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL FOUR REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and RESELLING them. DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day service on all orders. Step (2) REPLACE THE NAME AND ADDRESS UNDER REPORT #1 WITH YOURS, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3, moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name and address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list and this party is no doubt on the way to the bank. When doing this, make certain you type the names and addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!! Step (3) HAVING MADE THE REQUIRED CHANGES IN THE NAME LIST, save it as Text (.txt) file in its own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4) EMAIL OR MAIL A COPY OF THE ENTIRE PROGRAM (ALL OF THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT) TO EVERYONE whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more then ever. Then, email to anyone and everyone! Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists and services, mailing them for you. These are very inexpensive, 100,000 addresses for around $50.00 up. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so ALWAYS request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four (4) reports. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS **** Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME **** ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. **** REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: THE "Z" COMPANY 1506 Audubon Place Shreveport, La. 71105 **** REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: KZT 1013 Speed Monroe, La. 71201 **** REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: SOUTHERN S. S. 1324 Chopin Bossier City, La. 71112 **** REPORT #4 "EVALUTING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: PREMIER CO. 115 Fielder Lane Shreveport, La. 71105 CONCLUSION! I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You, too, will be making money in 20 - 90 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make financial decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments, retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you back. However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. WILL YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. PLEASE re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative reply. My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and email. I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, no product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduce at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and GOOD LUCK! "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING" "Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no way that I could NOT get enough orders to at least get my money back. BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten years of my life before". Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send for your 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18, Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED". WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire. 2. Get a post office box (preferred). 3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You MUST remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF. 4. Obtain as many addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on the mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send out and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE! The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a MUST!!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, IF YOU DON'T, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (TAKE A DEEP BREATH) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES - ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!!! REMEMBER: "HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING". "INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE". GOOD LUCK! </PRE></HTML>

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To ID or Not to ID that is the question
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.2.32.19970605042555.00712ad0(a)mail.atl.bellsouth.net>, on 06/05/97 at 04:25 AM, "Robert A. Costner" <pooh(a)efga.org> said: >I'm curious where the people here stand on such a policy. Do you feel >that positive ID to fly on a plane should be permissable? How about a >law to put a stop to it? The answer to bad laws is not more laws. There are two separate issues here and it is important to separate the two: 1) Government mandated ID requirements for Airline Travel. This is truly evil. It violates several protected rights under the constitution and is just plain un-american. Who I am and where I go and how I get there is non of their dam business. 2) Individual Airlines requiring ID as part of there security protocols. This I have no problems with as it is there planes and they may adopt whatever security policies they wish. If Delta wishes to require full body cavity searches before boarding their planes more power to them. No one is forcing you to fly with them. There are many things that are forbiden for the Federal Governmnet to do that are acceptable for individual companies. This is a good example of just that. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5bBG49Co1n+aLhhAQHPAQQAm9A0DUjzTyFWvXOeKO6+lDODQQ0lUoKI SjkQrvBwhfIU5SjLqO1bC6CVU9ad5Gn00PBuYj2JPxPJPT1PulaLKud3bA+1jy74 UTe/8gN+Iv534YheHFoabr3MlIvaeGFyiRJTnaKwX3UG/26v3RuoWA6k1Apzz8fC i78iHAvg7sc= =o0Qp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:27:04 -0400 (EDT) > From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)pathfinder.com> > Subject: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora > Unfortunately, Jim has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public > money does not magically turn something into a public forum. > > I'm not sure how I can get this idea through. Unfortunately, Declan has no idea what he's talking about. Accepting public money does increase the criminal and civil obligations of the recipient as well as providing a lever for 3rd parties to become involved on civil grounds. I'm not sure how I can get this idea through. _______________________________________________________________________ | | | Speak the truth, but leave immediately after. | | | | Slovenian Proverb | | | | Jim Choate ravage(a)ssz.com | | The Armadillo Group www.ssz.com | | Austin, Texas, USA 512-451-7087 | |_______________________________________________________________________|

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Dimitri McVeigh
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam Back wrote: > Hallam-Baker <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> writes: > > I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've > > not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that > > is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh. > Dimitri rights code sometimes. He wrote a cancel-bot. Very > constructive piece of work in an indirect way. See: having nice > freely available cancel-bots enables technically clueless, would > be-censors to censor more. They censor more, and cause a nuisance for > themselves sending out tons of cancel messages. This incentivizes > more and more people to ignore cancels (the trend in news > administration these days I understand is to ignore cancels entirely), > which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as > easily. Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged those who don't like it to do something about it. The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded, then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list. Dimitri and others, such as the Freedom-Knights, made it possible to "route around" the censorship of USENET posts to such an extent that any attempt I might make to censor Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri on USENET would have little effect. The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship. This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk. (Despite all of his claims to the contrary.) TruthMonger

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