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- 130025 discussions
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Response-Key: ideaclipper
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2
1
> If it looks like you're really going to do this, I'll send you some $ or
> some disks if you promise to use them for this project.
I've had enough folks volunteer for this in NYC that there's no way I'd
back out. If you want to send me something I'd rather you send me disks
because I don't have any time to buy them. Just as many 3.5" HD's as you
can... I'll accept money if you'd rather do it that way, but I want to make
sure it gets used up 100% for the disks. (I'll be taking a $20 loss in disks
and about $100 in taking the day off, if my boss decides not to pay me
for the day off...)
> Sandy Sanfort (I think) said a few weeks ago that he's writing an article
> for Soldier of Fortune about PGP and privacy; perhaps he'd give you
> permission to use that.
That would be most cool. Sandy, is you reading this?
> I wrote up a short (~ 2 pages, I think) article a few months ago for
> someone who wanted to hand out something printed; I'll poke around and
> see if I can dig it up. It wasn't anything special, or anything that anyone
> else who's been on the list > 3 months couldn't have written.
Please, anything you can scrounge together or revise. Also I'd reccomend that
you quote from current magazine articles and mention them. This way they can
seem more offical media-looking...
> You might see if there are pieces you could steal from the PGP docs; they
> did a fair job of explaining lots of the issues, as I remember it.
I won't include any extra docs or source code. No room on one disk :-(
> Like someone on the list suggested, you might think about handing out
> Mac disks, too - I'm not familiar enough with PC Expo to know if they
> mean "IBM PC" when they say "PC". If that's the case, there may not
> be much demand for Mac stuff. :)
I may do this if I have the time. I have a Mac, but not much time on my
hands anymore... Maybe I'll bring a few Mac disks just incase....
> With respect to copyright, remember that everything* created is born
> copyrighted; net-news postings, E-mail, newspaper articles, and everything
> else. An author must take affirmative steps to make it public domain.
> You're probably safest if you stick to articles explicitly written
> for this project, or ones where you have permission to reprint. I
> wouldn't be surprised if sympathetic folks/organizations (Wired, John
> Perry Barlow, Whole Earth Review) will grant permission if you ask.
>
> (* where "everything" == original works of authorship fixed in a
> tangible medium of expression)
The Wired JackBoots article is freely distributable, so that will go on there. :-)
2
1
One bill makes you larger, two bills make you small, and the ones that
Uncle gives you aren't worth anything utall.......
I thank everyone for the explanations I read; they were all quite
interesting, informative, and enlightening. I think that asking about
the origins of the concept of money supply is a bit like asking about
the origin of God or the Universe: it's just there. My question is
still unanswered in my mind, and I think the best thing will be to do
some further research in the library:
Where did Alice get her money initially which she deposited in a bank
for its safe-keeping and interim use. It was printed by the
government. How did the gov. decide how much to "create" (print) and
then assign a "value" to, from their gold reserve (back when it meant
something).
Too much or too little currency in circulation, and you have either
inflation or deflation; I know it's arbitrary, but how was an
acceptably correct proportion established initially, beginning from
when the US was established as a legitimate nation; how was the process
started, based on what sort of relationship between the abstract units
and the available "stuff" used as reference to base it upon.
The act of assigning abstract numbers to a concrete substance like
gold: someone made the initial associations and established an
understanding among the intended users. The procedure of using an
exchange medium was familiar from centuries before. The medium
changed, but the system of exchange remained and has been expanded
upon, until now it is very complex. Really, now all that we mostly see
are "money-numbers" attached to checks, credit cards, bank account
statements, receipts, shares, etc. I don't ever see the gold and if I
exchanged all of my checking account for it, I would probably find
resistance to its use from the inconvenience and danger of actually
handling it.
This is now pretty well just an act of assessing value/worth based upon
knowledge gained from the past relative to what everybody else has been
doing, in terms of assigning any worth to any thing in terms of some
number. It all makes sense, now.
I understand this much: there is some gold and other actual metal
located in a vault, sitting there as a symbolic standard of wealth,
worth, value. Everyone stakes a claim to it, and they exchange that
claim to others in substitution for something else (dog, rifle, gas in
the car, baby-sitting). These claims can circulate as fast as a
computer can calcualte & transfer them, and that is all that circulates
while the standard continues to sit in the vault, not being used for
anything by anybody. As long as you hold a claim to this lump of
stuff, you're Somebody - a force to contend with in the Market Place.
All you have to figure out is how to *get* some of that Claim in your
hands so that you, too, can be involved in the Circulation Business.
Something which can be converted from a solid to a liquid so it can be
re-converted back to a solid or something similar. But you always want
to maintain some Claim, some attachment, to that symbolic reference
from which all money numbers derive their assigned worth.
It's easy, when you know how. :>)
Oh, and. . . uh.. .what this has to do with cypherpunks is... uh .
..uh. . .anarcho-capitalistic control of my destiny based upon
fundamental comprehension of currency denomination & free market
methodology with future potential within an encrypted digi-cash system?
Blanc
2
1
======= Unpack this message with pgp -p ======
Remail 1.9 for Waffle UUCP BBS 1.65 - Cyph3rpunx wr1t3 k0d3!
Version 1.9
- Fixed lot's of stuff.
- Added help support. If you send as subject HELP or help,
it sends you a operator configurable helpfile. ('remailerhelp:')
in the Waffle static file.
remailhelp: c:/waffle/system/remail.hlp
- Encryption works now
- Replying to anon addres works
- If a problem is encountered, the message is sent back to
the sender, with a short helptext.
[ 1.7 - 1.8 are internal versions ]
Version 1.6
- Fixed problem that caused Penet mode to be on when
you specified -v
- Fixed problem with blank lines in header
- Changed "Remailed by:" field to "Remailed-By:" (this
apparently caused the empty header lines)
Version 1.5:
- "Encrypted: PGP" works now when pasted :)
Remail now also works from inside Waffle, if you
send the recipient encrypted.
- -v now gives even more jolly interesting messages
Version 1.4
- Cleaned up code (a bit)
- Added anonymous id database ('penet') functions
- Newsgroups that are not in the usenet file are added to it
- Wiping of plaintext PGP output files works now
(file was open for reading only)
- Do not write EOF (FF) anymore when appending files
- Added "Organization:" field
- Added "Reply-To:" field
- Added "X-Remailer-Software:" field
- Added "Remailed by: " header field
- Added -v (verbose) argument
- Added some error handling :)
- Added -penet argument. If given, remail allocates anymous ID's.
If not, remail works as a standard cypherpunx remailer.
In the next versions I will add acknowledgement of allocation of
anon ID, ping, help, passwd.
Please let me know if you have any suggestions.
Please test the remailers:
Penet style Cypherpunx style
----------------------------------------------------------
anon(a)desert.hacktic.nl remail(a)desert.hacktic.nl
anon(a)vox.hacktic.nl remail(a)vox.hacktic.nl
anon(a)jpunix.com remailer(a)jpunix.com
------ Patrick ------
Public keys for anon@desert and remail@desert:
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Version: 2.3a
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-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.3a
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=UFGB
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
kafka(a)desert.hacktic.nl's public key:
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.3a
mQCNAiz8ExIAAAEEAMCOBYWuMLd+bWGzyLIO2Nr+jQOydZ3azOVkRtsz0sgaRmep
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-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Signed and ascii-armored zipfile, remail.zip:
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-----END PGP MESSAGE-----
1
0
Hal <hfinney(a)shell.portal.com>:
> I think it would be interesting and helpful to our cause if reports
> about Cypherpunks were able to say something like, "An informal form of
> 'digital cash', based on cryptography and providing complete anonymity,
> has been used experimentally within the group to buy and sell
> information and other services. Based on the success of these
> experiments, plans are being developed for more widespread deployment
> of this 'crypto cash'."
This reminded me that I haven't seen any article on our type of digital cash
(as different from charge cards, smartcards...) for a lay readership. I wrote
a piece in my column in The Asian Age, a business-oriented daily published in
Delhi, Bombay and London. Here it is.
PS. I excuse myself for the bandwidth used (6k) in the knowledge that there
have been several larger posts in the past ;-)
Cypherpunk-relevant responses to the list, flames to alt.dev.null please!
-------
Electric Dreams
Weekly column for The Asian Age by Rishab Aiyer Ghosh
#6, 28/March/1994: Cyberbanking and Digital Cash
Intro: The currency of cyberspace will be electronic tokens that
cannot be forged.
If information wants to be free, will we still need money?
Definitely. More than ever, in fact. The reason we use money at
all, rather than barter, is because money has definite value.
Perhaps with no real value whatsoever, currency fills the role of
a reference, against which the value of goods can be measured. In
the information age, when knowledge may be the most valuable
commodity to be traded, there will be a real need for a reference
of the relative value of varying pieces of data. Note the use of
the future tense; so far, on the Internet, information has by and
large succeeded in being free. Though much of it will hopefully
remain so, with the Net's increasing commercialization, large
amounts of material are bound to become major sources of income
for data vendors.
For future-aware businesses, from small digital entrepreneurs
marketing their unique expertise to colossal database tycoons,
information is the key to high-growth industries of the next
millennium. However great the Internet era has been, with free
access to services and information, it is already becoming
something for nostalgia -- not for long will the Net remain
hugely subsidized by industrial-age economies, and information
will inevitably be entrapped once more. If activists for freedom
in cyberspace are successful, this time information will not be
caged by authority in the form of governments; but by the power
of money and corporations.
When information is distributed as a valuable commodity, the
process is quite different from goods as we traditionally think
of them. Information does not need to be manufactured for each
customer. Once created, it can be transferred with ease in an
instant. The power of information is when it is accurate and up-
to-date. It must be communicated on demand, at the time of
demand. This means that any method of payment must be instant,
and secure. Unlike mail order and other time-delayed forms of
shopping of the present, where there is no urgency to process and
verify cheques or credit card balances, the information market is
like the corner drugstore. You get instant service, and you pay
in instant (and presumably secure) cash. Cyberspace needs a means
of transferring cash across the world in an instant -- in
exchange for the data that comes electronically at the speed of
light.
There are various experiments underway in corners of the Net
populated by concerned cybercitizens to create this means; to
create digicash. To be communicated at the speed of information,
cash must be able to travel at that speed. This leads us to an
interesting conclusion. Digital money is not just electronic
banking records, or smart debit cards; digicash must be
information. Initially backed by real money, convertible to
paper, digicash is distributed, like paper cash, in units that
can be combined, unlike cheques, where a total value is filled
into a form. These tokens of information are unique (enumerating
each digital 'banknote'), and are generated using techniques
similar to those used in public-key cryptography. The
mathematically generated tokens can be matched with their issuing
bank, ensuring through digital signatures that they are genuine.
Unlike conventional signatures or watermarks, new notes cannot be
forged -- it would take a roomful of supercomputers several
centuries to break through the complex mathematics involved in
ensuring the uniqueness of signed tokens.
Being information, though, these tokens of cash can be simply
copied. Note that with paper money, all banknotes are (excepting
the serial number) virtually identical. The protection against
forgery is that it is difficult to duplicate a single note. With
digicash, a single note can easily be duplicated; but all notes
are significantly different. The signatures can be authenticated,
ensuring that a note is definitely from the signing bank. This
implies that invalid notes cannot be created; a forged digital
banknote has to be an exact copy of a real one. The protection
against this elementary type of forgery is that transactions are
in real-time; between customer and seller, and between seller and
bank. The bank ensures in that the cash is genuine, and will only
honour one copy of any token. As all digicash transactions are
done this way, there will only be one copy of any token in use at
any time. For the sake of privacy, these transactions, whether
through smartcards, on-line access or e-mail, will be anonymous.
Digicash will be like real cash. The methods of anonymity planned
so far do include exceptions whereby double-spending, attempting
to use a token more than once, will greatly reduce anonymity,
making forgery more difficult.
Digicash systems are currently in experimental use. They work.
The only problems are the authorities and the law, who are, as
usual, well behind the times.
Rishab Aiyer Ghosh is a freelance technology consultant and
writer. You can reach him through voice mail (+91 11 3760335) or
e-mail (rishab(a)dxm.ernet.in)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rishab Aiyer Ghosh rishab(a)dxm.ernet.in
Voicemail +91 11 3760335; Vox/Fax/Data 6853410
H-34C Saket New Delhi 110017 INDIA
The National Short-Sleeved Shirt Association says:
Support your right to bare arms!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1
0
Cyphertentacles,
I apologize for mentioning the name "Detweiler" here, but I just spent
a fair amount of time composing this attached article for
talk.politics.crypto, and thought it relevant enough to Cypherpunks to
forward here.
Many of you apparently missed Detweiler's harassment of our list (with
fantasies that several list members were actually "Tentacles" of
myself and Eric Hughes and others, etc.), for which you should
consider yourself blessed.
He has a nasty habit of popping up, though. Tonight, shortly after
reading his post where he asked "have you fixed the cypherpunks
remailers yet?," I saw that huge list of numbers appear from an
anonymous site....and of course I thought "He's baaaaack!"
--Tim
Newsgroups: alt.security.pgp,talk.politics.crypto
Path: netcom.com!tcmay
From: tcmay(a)netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: RSA Data Security Inc. and Pretty Good Privacy...some comments
Message-ID: <tcmayCp9qJ9.7r3(a)netcom.com>
Followup-To: alt.security.pgp,talk.politics.crypto
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 08:06:45 GMT
L. Detweiler (tmp(a)netcom.com) wrote:
(commenting on a post of mine)
: actually, something I have observed is that you never respond to
: ad hominem attacks the way e.g. Sternlight does. If someone calls
: you a slimy cryptoanarchist, you don't bother to defend yourself.
That's right. I see no point in answering such nonsense, as it wastes
my time and wastes the group's time. I'm only commenting here because
you've made an accurate observation here...ad hominem arguments are
rarely persuasive.
: Which is something of a pity, because IMHO all the fun of Usenet
: is namecalling. What else is it good for? any medium that does not
: reward excellence in posting (the good and the bad scroll off
: in the same pace) is asking for mediocrity.
Talk.politics.crypto should be, in my opinion, concerning itself with
the vital and fascinating questions about crypto policy, the laws of
other countries besides the U.S., Clipper, Digital Telephony, and so
forth, not with endless acrimony about who said what, who called whom
a liar, and who's sleazier.
If someone calls me a fool, or a dupe, or a Nazi babykiller, I take
satisfaction in letting their words speak to their own reputation.
Further, anyone _taken in_ by such idle charges almost certainly
_deserves_ to be taken in! A kind of filter, as it were.
Most people are pretty reasonable, and learn quickly enough to
separate out casual charges and idle assertions from the truth. This
is why free speech "works."
(When Detweiler begain to attach my name and (non-digital) sig block
to his posts, and then to post pro-Nazi rants in soc.culture.jewish
and soc.culture.german, with my name at the bottom, then I took the
step of letting his site admin know I was pissed off. Eventually,
after LD mailbombed more than a hundred newsgroups--before it was
stopped at his site--his account was yanked. He's now posting as
"tmp.netcom.com," out of the Denver site.)
: also, it appears that you are loathe to post any insult under your
: True Name but feel free to do so under all the `others' <g>. It appears
Yes, I dislike posting insults....even for people I disagree with.
(I'm not perfect...I've lost my temper on the Net more than once...)
And a lot of times I just see no point in refuting an obviously flawed
argument someone makes. The Clipper arguments have gone around and
around and most people in this group, not to mention 80% of Americans,
dislike the Clipper concept. (As I've said so many times, beginning 5
months _before_ Clipper was announced, my real concern is that the
groundwork is being laid for some kind of ban on unapproved crypto
use. This has always been the focus of my efforts, including the
technical and public relations efforts now underway to undermine key
escrow, not the relatively trivial issue of what kind of secure phones
the government buys for itself and tells its contractors to buy. Too
many issues here to discuss now.)
However, as I told you beginning last summer when you started to
pester me about my "Tentacles" and my "Pseudopods," I don't post to
this or any other group under any name or account name other than my
own name, tcmay(a)netcom.com. And I haven't used a reamiler or anonymous
posting service for many months (and then it was mostly for
experiments, with posts going to the Cypherpunks mailing list). The
same cannot be said of yourself, you having posted under the various
names of S. Boxx, The Executioner, Pablo Escobar, Jim Riverman, T.C.
Hughes, Eric May, Adolf Hitler, etc., via the anon.penet.fi remailer
site. And you've even posted with _my name_ attached to your posts. (A
good argument for digital signatures, save that I run RSA's MailSafe
and MacPGP on my home machine, and uploading to Netcom is an extra set
of steps I don't relish.)
: that the cryptoanarchist ideology that `true names' are meaningless
: is itself meaningless. Well, I think you should consider that you
: are really missing out on something. A world where there is no
: strong condemnation of evil is an invitation to moral relativism
: and fascism (or, maybe that is your point).
Condemnation of evil doesn't happen by ad hominem arguments, by
anonymous posts, by prattle about the "spawn of Satan" and
"sodomites." Nothing to be gained by mindlessly demonizing David
Sternlight, Grady Ward, Dorothy Denning, or any other such
folks.
If there is a developing collision between "privacy" and the putative
need for the government to inspect the insides of ones computer files,
filing cabinets, business receipts, housekeeper interview logs, etc.
(all of these inspections are ostensibly needed for small
businesses--and many of us are becoming small businessmen, courtesy of
at home consulting, businesses--to allow taxation, detection of
money-laundering, etc.), then this collision needs to be discussed.
I don't impute evil to the NSA or NIST, or to folks like Dorothy
Denning and David Sternlight. I just disagree with them and think the
new technologies favor (and "empower") the individual over any
particular nation and its band of tax collectors, censors, and
authority figures. There are good aspects and bad aspects to this kind
of "crypto anarchy" (my term since 1988), but the genie's already out
of the bottle.
Instead of arguing pointlessly here, in this group, over 700 mostly
like-minded (though I don't speak for others) folks are racing to get
strong crypto and its related technologies deployed as quickly and as
widely as we can. Just to get the genie even _further_ out of the
bottle. (Our band of folks, and others, may lack the sheer power of
the Agency, but it is _ever so much easier_ to encrypt strongly, to
provide untraceable message routing, than it is to break ciphers and
track all messages.
The old saw, repeated recently by Philip Elmer-Dewitt in an otherwise
fine McNeil-Lehrer piece, that the NSA "has never met a code it
couldn't crack," is actually almost completely bogus. In fact, most
modern ciphers have been uncrackable, for reasons of computational
complexity, and there have been few major cipher or code crackings in
the last 20 years...the Walker spy case was so serious because key
material was being supplied to the Soviets, the kind of black-bag
cryptanalysis which works where brute-force methods fail.
Fortunately for us, public key cryptosystems have much less key
material to protect, and the Agency can't do a black-bag job on very
many of us. This is why they're understandably worried, and why
Clipper, Capstone, and Digital Telephony are their attempts at
solutions.
: the delight of Usenet is the back-and-forth. That's why Sternlight
: is famous and T.C.May is just a lurking shadow. The latter has mastered
: the thrust but not the parry.
And? So?
In the big scheme of things, it doesn't matter much to me that David
Sternlight is much better known than I am. Or that you, L. Detweiler,
rate your very own section in the "Legends" guide in alt.usenet.kooks.
: hee, hee, T.C.May apologizes to Dorothy Denning. Mr. May, it is clear
: that you can't decide whether you want to be a guerilla cryptoanarchist
: or the sweet, nice boy next door who brings cookies for the neighbor
: Aunt Dorothy.
: I'll stop now.
Thanks. That's my cue to stop as well.
: pseudonymously yours,
: tmp(a)netcom.com
--Tim May
--
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available.
"National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."
1
0
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Subj: Why Digital Cash is Not Being Used
>Hal Finney asks us to think about and comment on the important issue of why
>digital cash, in its myriad forms, is not in wider use. Especially on this
>list, where the Magic Money/Tacky Tokens experiment has not (yet at least)
>produced widespread use.
I believe these things will come into use fairly quickly -
perhaps not as fast as Tim, Hal, others, myself included, want, but.
Especially if the new momentum here in Cypherpunks keeps up.
Allow me to inject some of my own momentum here.
I was going to make a suggestion that this discussion move from
Cypherpunks to IMP-Interest, which seems to be a dead list.
Cypherpunks who object to the non-crypto aspect of the Money_Threads
could just not bother with IMP-Interest, and Cypherpunks could
take over IMP-Interest and work at actually establishing an IMP.
(Internet Mercantile Protocol). [I might have more to say about
protocols later - but already I sense a long post coming up...]
[[ I don't know if I should apologize in advance for verbosity,
since there is soooo much mail to read and tend to...but I
have been holding back for various reasons much related to
the answer to the Subject: Why Digital Cash is not being used.]]
Or is there something official about the name "IMP" - I notice
the host is on bellcore, do they own the name? Can anyone own a
name such as IMP ? Anything else that needs to be said, in case
of newbies re IMP? Nick Szabo was the one who originally recommended
it, Nick - are you still there?
However, I could be satisfied leaving it on Cypherpunks...actually,
I bet a poll of active C'punk posters and interested lurkers would
approve of the digital cash conversations and the value of money
threads. We'll just have to get Hawk's Ray's ExI Mailing List
new software purchased or donated to Cypherpunks...tax decuctable...
Meanwhile, back to replying to Tim's message and Hal's rallying
of the troops and answering This Question :
>This question also goes to the heart of several related questions:
>1. Why aren't crypto protocols other than simple encryption, digital
>signatures (both implemented in PGP as the de facto standard in our
>community), and remailings (implemented in Julf's anon.penet.fi remailer
>and in the various Cypherpunks remailers) being *used*? Why no DC-Nets, no
>data havens, no digital timestamping, etc.?
Answer Number One to 1. HOMEWORK. Sorry for shouting. There is sooo
much homework to do. We've got code to write, borrow, use...
Personally, I have had PGP for many months, almost a year, I
suppose, and am only now just getting a round tuit. This Cypherpunks
"posting" will be my first public use of PGP to sign a message.
I did send a private PGP message to one friend, just for practice.
I don't have time to read alt.security.pgp enough to not have some
messages expire on me, so I couldn't answer the simple question
of Why does PGP stick an extra "- " in front of the "-----Begin
Public Key Block -----" when you include the ascii public key
block in the text of your letter. Must be a recursion type of thing,
PGP rejecting this particular insance of text as anything significant
to do with PGP signing with cleartxt=on. Anyway, that is perhaps a
faq so I'll recheck that later, ....
So, I've finally got my PGP homework done, at least enough to get
past the basics. But now to get into the PGP Tools and really start
writing code...more homework. Fortunately for you, Tim, you don't
have a Boss to worry about - your dues are all paid in this regard.
Anyway, I'll stick my virgin public key in here, but beware it has
not been signed. I have already volunteered to spring for a phone
call to Stuart Card to check public key sigs, and I'll volunteer
to phone one or two others who reply directly to me to get my key
signed by Known Cypherpunks and/or Extropians. Anyway, later on
that. I'll probably even PAY someone in digital cash to sign my key...
- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.3a
mQCNAiynHCkAAAEEANbd5hw0IR+keK2U2DoGnAPdcctWxipdXbJ2Qr83ScX7d7K1
uP1bkRkGOCYJpQTksgtHf/ulUsZwq4TEFb7QUyvHnoRJcO4q0RX7CnH9fhXQ1F+k
LeuU4NSCYIzrvI6kdoMR1nTN3N8zm793CafB/SI0ZoJs2b5p1UqYjDfdkCPxAAUR
tCxCaWxsIEdhcmxhbmQgKFdtLlIuKSAgPGJpbGxAa2Vhbi51Y3MubXVuLmNhPg==
=Z9Sb
- -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Now, I hope I used the right key! Something else to check.
So what else is on the homework list?
1. Read Chaum papers. Re-read all Hal Finney articles in Extropy.
Really understand Alice to Bob to me and back again. Straighforward
study, but a few time units involved. Reread Mark Ringuette mail.
2. Read Schneier. Heavy into the technical cryptography stuff, to
be sure, but definitely required reading. Many time units.
2. a. Buy the book. Not in our library. I am broke and cannot afford
hefty tome right now. However, I have entered a contest which pays
$150 first prize and $75 second in credits at my favourite bookstore.
Unfortunately they will not issue digital cash certificates with
which to redeem said prize at the Internet Bookstore, which doesn't
yet take digital cash, because there is not yet a true internet
bank - wait - what's that I hear about INFO_Banque ???
Anyway, Win contest, order book. Will take at least two weeks for
contest, then a week to get the money, then two weeks order from
bookstore. With luck, I'll have a copy within six weeks. And if
I don't win the writing contest, with The Great Newfoundland Novel,
Page 1, then it's off to a farther payday...probably September
at current rate of progress.
2. b. Do the Errata list.
2. c. Get the Diskette. Pay BS in digital cash for diskette.
Get licence from BS to resell software to my Customers.
2. d. Get a box of the books and sell them to my Customers.
3. Get my own machine to do all this on. Certain perqs apply to my
use of my employer's facilities, to be sure, but they do not
extend indefinitely and in all directions. More code to write.
More paydays down the road... Send me real cash money.
4. Start a BBS. Well, maybe I can make some money at it, once I get
a machine and some phone lines...but I'm way out in the boonies
here. I'll need a satellite dish internet feed, because I can't
get a commercial one except through academic routes, and I don't
want to go through academic routes and would not be allowed, anyway.
5. Get a Netcom account? Is this possible for a Canadian? I'd
still have to telnet from some supplier here. I'll go for my
own service with my own satellite dish. Investors, anyone?
Ripe market! Send for Prospect-Us.
6. Learn Unix. Maybe I'll get a shell account on Sameer's machine.
I've been a DEC RSTS/VMS Basic-Plus/VAX BASIC V2 programmer for
too long, and I've not yet become unixificated. I don't even
know if I could read a C++ program. I'm obsolete...again.
7. Reactive HEx - opps, premature - see below for rest of this point.
8. Become a security expert. Definitely need SecureDrive/Dev/Other.
More ftp'ing to do. I really appreciate all the Cyperpunks keeping
ourselves posted on the latest and greatest and the news regarding
these products, as well as the pearls of wisdom from DCF. I expect
most of us could, after homework, become successful security
consultants. And there are a lot of anarchists about!
But, isn't Unix full of security holes? When I set up my own
Netcom company, won't I be hacked? Ray? HELP? Oh yes, I've
got to get into Pr0duct Cypher's product. What's a firewall?
9. Start up INFO_Banque. I am almost ready to do this, but not
quite. Something I said about homework... so Cypherpunks,
Extropians, (no, please do not forward this post to Extropians.
I am refering to Extropians who are Cypherpunks...), friends,
go easy on my new .sig. However, there ain't no time like the
present, neither, hey!
Speaking of time...
>2. What *incentives* are there for creative programmers to devise and/or
>implement new crypto protocols if essentially everything for the past year
>and a half (since the fall of 1992, which is when PGP 2.0 and remailers
>became widely available) has languished?
There's gold in them thar hills. I will be willing to put money
into it, when I get some money. This process of emerging from
bankruptcy and becoming judgement proof is interesting, but it
takes time, and money. Also, discipline. Having proven myself
incompetent at my financial affairs, how dare I speculate upon
starting a bank? Well, there it is. Fuck 'em. Feed em fishheads.
I'm going to do it anyway. I'll even go out on a limb and say
that I'm going to tell you all how I'm going to do it, except
don't expect an answer Real Soon Now. I've still got to figure
out the solution to the duplicate spending problem.
>3. What are the "killer apps" of crypto?
Cypherpunks want to know. Cypherpunks are writing them...
And please, Tim, We Really Do Need The FAQ. I have heard
you toss out tidbits about the Cyperpunks FAQ. More, please.
We really do value your postings and ideas and caveats and
reputation - nobody else could do it...Tim...
>4. What platforms and user environments should would-be developers target?
>What machines? What networks? What languages? (An ongoing interest of mine.
>Objects, scripts, Visual Basic (!) VBX tools, TCL, perl, many platforms,
>etc. A tower of Babel of confusion is upon us.)
Yes, I cannot even attempt an answer here yet. It matters, of course,
but I would speculate that it will be done, perhaps in EACH of these
ways on all the platforms that there are for sale to our Customers.
However, we've got to nail down the protocol. Maybe the
Magic Money Model will take off. Pr0duct Cypher, do I need to
become anonymous?
>Here is my first-cut analysis of the digital cash situation.
>I. Why is Magic Money/Tack Tokens, in particular, not being more widely used?
>- Nothing of significance on the List to buy, hence no incentive to learn
>how MM works. (Just because someone announces that their new article is
>available for 10 Tacky Tokens doesn't a demand make!)
Yeah, I've noticed this, too. But I want to buy books, and I want
to sell stuff to my Customers, and I want them to use my cash from
my bank to pay for this stuff. And I want cooperating banks all using
the same INFO_Banque Protocol (TM WmRG right now) to use my cash
and I'll use theirs, and we'll have 700 Cypherpunks and 300 Extropians
start up 1000 new banks all using our own developed and pgp-like-available
software, for a small fee.
Within a little while, I am going to offer my own INFO_Banque digital
cash for sale to Cypherpunks and Extropians, and eventually everyone
in the world, and keep a US Dollar Trust account in a secret "real"
offshore bank somewhere in the Cayman Islands or El Salvador. But
before I can do that, well, you know...homework...
Still, if you want to get the ball rolling, send me $10 and I'll
deposit it in trust, sticking my own reputation on the line ...
Actually, I don't know if there are any legal implications to
that, because my private company Macronic Systems, Inc. is incorporated
specifically NOT as a bank, because different rules apply to a bank,
but my INFO_Banque is not incorporated anywhere. It is a virtual
entity of mine that nobody can get at just yet. Hell, Tim, I'll
give you all the Thornes you want for $10 - if you still want them!
Be the first one on your block. Just to keep myself honest, my home
address is 28 Warren Place, St. John's, Nfld. Canada A1A 2A1. Now,
wouldn't you trust someone with a postal code like that! I hesitated
at putting that here in a Cypherpunks message, but what the hell...
just tell Detweiller I am armed and dangerous...
>- Semantic gap. I confess to not having the foggiest ideas of how to go
>about acquiring Tacky Tokens, how to send them to other people, how to
>redeem them (and for what), etc. Having nothing to buy (no need), and
>plenty of things to occupy my time, I've had no interest in looking at MM.
This will change. Maybe you don't need stuff and can always buy it
conventionally anyway. But with the rapidity with which Mosaic and
WWW applications are growing around the world, there will soon be
many on-line stores. I want to open one myself...just get me my
new alpha-sun-mips-cray box with a few gigs raid cryptofied...
and a satellite dish network feed and notebook and four wheel
drive with a cellular phone and ...
Any comments on the newly announced secure mosaic?
>When I buy items like t-shirts from people on this list, I simply write
>them a check and send it. Very simple. The banks handle the complexities.
>And writing a check is a "prototype" (or script) that is learned early by
>most of us. Not so with any of the various digital cash schemes. In 10 or
>20 years, sure, but not now.
Yes, this is fine. But we are talking anonymous money, untraceable
transactions, cryptoanarchy, stuff like that. We know about cheques.
(I wish you yanks could get your spelling right!)
>This is not to take away from the excellent work--I gather from comments by
>others--that ProductCypher put into MM. His greatest achievement may turn
>out to bring this issue to the fore, to wit, what will cause people to
>bridge this semantic gap (understanding) and actually begin to *use* these
>new constructs?
Yes, I gotta add this to my homework list.
>- as others have noted recently (and this is a well-known issue),
>alternative currencies must offer some advantage over existing currencies,
>or at least be roughly on a par with them.
Agreed - of course. We've got to beat VISA/MC/AMEX/Travellers Cheques
in transaction costs, and we've got to pay with Digital Postage. I
love that term! It explains it all. Quote from the upcoming
INFO_Banque Catechism (R) : Digital Cash pays for itself.
- --- "frequent flier miles," ---- elided.
>(The proposal recently that vendors of products, like t-shirts, give a
>discount for MM payments is of course unworkable. This is asking real
>people to give up real dollars for an ideological cause of marginally
>little significance to them. The advantages of MM must be real, not phony.)
Of course.
>II. Other Experiences with Digital Cash in Some Form
>- On the Extropians list a while back (I've since left that list), there
>was an interesting experiment involving reputations of posters and "shares"
>in their reputations. Brian Hawthorne introduced is "Hawthorne Exchange,"
>HeX, with eventually a few hundred or so reputations trading. The unit of
>exchange was the "Thorne," with each new list member given 10,000 Thornes
>to trade with.
>Trading was very sparse,
... elide ...
>But I think the system was ultimately a failure. Nothing interesting was
>for sale, and Thornes had a ridiculously low value (reflecting of course
>their "toy" nature...my $20 bought 20,000 Thornes, as I recall). By "low
>value" I mean that the number of Thornes given to each participant (Hint:
>"given" is the important word) was worth nominally $100 (by Brian's sales
>price--probably none were ever sold at this price), worth $10 to me and
>others (by my offer of $1 per 1000 Thornes), and probably worth much _less_
>as the HeX market languished and, probably, ultimately folded. (Does
>anybody on the Extropians list know if it is still operating? And what
>happened to by shares when I left the list?)
Well, yes I know, sort of. Brian Hawthorne couldn't handle the
Extropians volume because of work commitments. I don't know if
he was on Cypherpunks or not. So he auctioned off HEx, and I bought
it for a small fee. It was announced, but, of course, you missed it...
HEx is now dormant and will be for a little while yet.
I am expecting to be able to find a place from which to run it
real soon now. Meanwhile, it is in limbo. There has been no crying
demand from Extropians to get it back on line. When I do get some
of my homework done, I will take the purchased software system,
complete with all the current state of reputations, accounts,
and so on, and figure out what to do with it. The reason I bought
it was not so much to run a market for the reputations of Extropians,
but because reputation markets are going to be valuable commodities
in the near future, as internet commerce ramps up. I want to expand
upon the concepts and write some code and start marketing HEx in
a way that can make me and my Business Partners some money.
My INFO_Banque will register reputations for digital postage fees,
and receive and arbitrate contributed information about reputations,
from other reputation holders, for some small transaction fees.
I have been wanting for months to expound upon these ideas and
seek feedback from Extropians and Cypherpunks regarding what to
do with this reputation market. I will accept any ideas any of
you want to donate... if they are earthshattering and they make
some money for me and my Business Partners/Investors in the long
run, I may even repay with digital cash royalties.
Other uses include digital timestamping - when I can get a
machine and ups and raid box and backup site and security and
all that other stuff I want - I will start offering services
like this. What with all the other ambitions I have mentioned
here in this Mein Beinkpff message/posting, I could easily spend
a few hundred grand getting this together - if I didn't have
a full-time job to do to feed my family, etc etc....
It's funny, too, because despite ponderings on these matters over
the past year or more, I never asked myself the question that came
up in the digital cash/value of money threads today - Who is going
to Trust Me? I know I can trust me, and in theory a mix chain
will be reliable if you can trust one of the links, so if I become
one of these mix chain links through _my_ INFO_Banque, then _I_
know the chain will be reliable. Similarly, _you_ will trust
yourself, and soon there will be 700 Cypherpunks and 300 Extropians
and all 4 IMP-Interest people all having anonymous remailers and mixes
operating, so any sub-chain of eight INFO_Banque Protocol banks
will virtually HAVE to be reliable for our commerce...
But nobody can trust me not to run off with the cash - good
point. How do we solve this one? I guess I'll have to start
from the beginning and build a reputation for it... When
I _do_ get my homework done, and start offering services for
real, when etc etc happens, then you can be sure that if you
send me real US Dollars to deposit on account for INFO_Banque
digital cash transactions, they will be deposited in a Trust
account. Maybe it will at first turn out to be merely digital
cheques, but maybe if Perry lets me in on his secrets and some
of the stuff he has learned from these six-figure guys at
Citibank who are out trying to figure out how to capture this
market, well maybe then we can get somewhere...
======
I've gone on too long now...to wrap this up...snip
======
>III. What Markets Might Make Use of Digital Cash
I repeat, there's gold in them thar hills.
>- illegal markets, for transferring wealth in fairly large amounts. Not at
>all clear how this will happen, and it sure won't happen with some
>fly-by-night hackers and/or students offering a new service.
Yes, it is now the middle of the night. 4:34 am, NST, actually.
[Real timestamping update - geez, its now 2 hours 10 minutes later.]
>(I didn't mention that one of the persistent concerns about learning new
>crypto protocols here on this list is the epiphenomenality (transience) of
>it all...remailers appear and then vanish when the students go away or lose
>their accounts, features added make past learning useless, and so on. Life
>is too short to spend it learning crufty details that will go away in a
>matter of months. I'd hate to buy $300 worth of TackyTokens and then find
>that their value went away when J.Random User graduated!)
Yes, this stuff has to be professionalized. Capitalized. Done.
>- betting markets, the "Internet Casino in Cyberspace," etc. Nick Szabo was
>once championing this, and I think it could be an interesting, and very
>real, market. Lots of issues here.
More, please. If a few more Cypherpunks could break that PRNG in
Montreal...$600,000 he got! And they paid him! Well, they _had_
to, just for letting them in on the hole...well, if I could just
break it _once_ ...
>- Digital Postage. This remains my favorite. There's a _need_ for
>untraceable payments (else why use a remailer?). I've written about this
>extensively, as have others.
Yup. I like this. Do include your previous writings in the FAQ...
>If remailers offered robust (see above point about crufty, flaky, hobby
>remailers) services that they operated as _businesses_, with reasonable
>attention to reliability, interconnectivity to other remailers, overall
>robustness, and carefully articulated policies about logging, privacy,
>etc., then MM or something similar could have a real value.
MM or whatever, we've got to nail down the protocol. In spite of
my "out of the mouths of babes" approach here and now, I do intend
to do this stuff as a business, to make profits, once a few problems
are ironed out regarding eating, drinking, playing darts, living
forever, etc.
>IV. Is there Any Hope for Cypherpunks Software Use?
>The remailers (of Hughes and Finney, with other contributions) came in the
>first few _weeks_ of existence of the Cypherpunks group. Julf's system
>already existed.
I'll run one, too, as part of the integrated INFO_Banque services.
>Remailers were the "low-hanging fruit" that got plucked fairly easily (not
>taking anything away from Eric, but he himself says he learned enough Perl
>in one day to write the first, crude remailer the _next_ day!).
Well, I guess things are looking up. It can't be all that difficult.
If I could master paper tape fortran on a PDP-8/L, what with the
RIM loader and the BIN loader and 110 baud, surely I can get into
unix in a few days. Sigh. I must be getting old if I can remember
flip chip modules that had transistors on them, doing transistor-
to-transistor logic, building gates,... Tim, you must have been
one of the ones that made this old stuff obsolete! Well done
yourself.
>Later protocols have not fared as well. Why this is so is of great
> importance.
>That's a topic unto itself, and one which I hope to write about soon. Lots
>of important questions and interesting issues.
You said it, boy. I think I'll copyright and publish my
INFO_Banque Catechism as part of my Ideas for Sale programme.
Hey, you did say we needed _something_ for sale on the net, didn't
you?
But please, sir, can we have more? Please write about Protocol.
Soon. Like, forget the line-by-line response you were going to
make to _this_ message... heh heh. (Opps, I almost said ...
no, I can't repeat it...)
>--Tim May
Bill Garland,
whose new .sig might become this :
/----------------------------------------------------------------------\
| I am an Extropian. | Macronic Systems, Inc. offers Ideas for Sale ! |
| BEST: DO_IT_SO ! | Go for it : Pledge a Digital US Dollar now. |
| CryptoAnarchist. | Send PGP key for more information. |
| Cypherpunk. | Get in on the ground floor. Invest Now. Trust me! |
| Owner : MSInc., |---------------------------------------------------|
| HEx, INFO_Banque | Day Job : Bill Garland = bill(a)kean.ucs.mun.ca |
\__________________________________o o_________________________________/
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Fellow cypherpunks,
I am still not receiving the list. I thank those who have replied
to my requests for assistance. I sent a message to owner-
cypherpunks, and hope things are resolved soon. In the meantime,
beware of cheap imitations......
Brian Williams
Extropian
Cypherpatriot
"Cryptocosmology: Sufficently advanced comunication is
indistinguishable from noise." --Steve Witham
"Have you ever had your phones tapped by the government? YOU WILL
and the company that'll bring it to you.... AT&T" --James Speth
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They seem to have fixed the problem, I just got a load of mail!
Brian Williams
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>> This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about
>> cryptography in the U.S.
>does that also mean that an american cannot use his/her knowledge overseas?
That's what Stratus' export control lawyers tell us.
However, this whole thing is totally screwy. I know at least one American
who consults as a cryptanalyst for foreign companies and governments --
with no mention of export licenses.
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