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Re: Bell, Detweiler, Ravings, and Whatnot
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:37 AM 3/11/96, jim bell wrote: >Well, until about 3/4 of a year ago, I spent no time on Internet except >through a FIDO gateway on Libernet and Libernet-d, so I missed all that. >I'm a >bit ashamed to admit that I haven't read the vast majority of Cybernomicon, >although somebody was nice enough to email me a section on the subject of >anonymous assassination markets. I wondered why you hadn't extended the >idea to a more general system, but then again that was a bit early if you >talked about it in 1988. Without the invention of digital cash, it's a bit >hard to reward the assassin. Oh, but you are missing the main point completely. It was reading Chaum's 1985 paper on digital cash that got me thinking about this. By 1988-90, digital cash was essentially in the same state it is in now. Central to my points was an anonymous two-way market, such as the BlackNet market I developed in '93. >>And your insulting comments about people whom you disagree with, or people >>whom you think are not taking your ideas seriously enough, are reminiscent >>of the ravings of the last victim here of late stage Detweiler's Syndrome. >>--Tim May > >Well, maybe at times I do get a bit testy, but most recently on this Leahy >bill I'm disgusted to see organizations that SHOULD be sounding the alarm >actually express only mildly guarded support for that bill, "wart and all." >I'd love to see _most_ of the bill pass, but the one bad section is a real >killer. There are many things I find terrible, disgusting, dangerous, wrong, etc. But I have never been persuaded by people ranting at me and insulting me, so I doubt that rants and insults from me will be effective. (I'm not claiming to always be calm and non-insulting, just claiming that the style of ranting is rarely effective, and I try to avoid it.) Screaming insults at people, resorting to ad hominem attacks on their personality (such as Jim did with Padgett Peterson), ranting about how people are fools and worse, and generally foaming at the mouth...these are behaviors which cause people to be dismissed as jerks, paranoids, and killfile occuppants. Read the archives covering the several months when Detweiler (aka V. Z. Nuri, aka S. Boxx, aka Pablo Escobar, aka about 20 other pseudonyms) was foaming at the mouth about how people were mutating his brain, how the crypto anarchists were ignoring him, how the snakes of Medusa were hiding in his keyboard, and so on. Then note the similarities to Jim Bell. I have nothing against you, Jim Bell, but you are coming across as a loon, as someone who clearly needs some kind of anti-psychotic medication. You rant, you quote excessively, you dissect short comments with pages-long diatribes, you ascribe motivations to your opponents that you cannot possibly be privy to, and you generally act like a fool. I urge you to moderate your debating style before you're just dismissed completely as a detweiling basket case. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Leahy bill nightmare scenario?
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:12 AM 3/11/96, Gary Howland wrote: >Dan Weinstein writes: >> If I rent cars, someone might one day use a car rented from me in a >> robbery. Does that make my an accessary? NO. > >This is an unfair analogy. Now if you had said that you rented cars >without asking for proof of identification, thus making your car hire >centre very useful to robbers, that may more closely resemble the >anon-remailer situation. If a hotel rents a room to someone who commits a crime in that room, e.g., prostitution, drug use, plotting to blow up a building, can the hotel be seized under the asset forfeiture laws? Not that I have heard. Does it matter if the hotel fails to extensively check identification? (Hint: Rarely have I had my ID checked. Sometimes they ask for a driver's license and write down the number...and we all know how easy it is to get fake DLs. Mostly they don't.) If I lend my chain saw to my next-door neighbor without confirming his identity, and he carves up his wife, am I liable? Not in these parts. (If I lend my chain saw to a ranting, foaming maniac, am I liable? Perhaps.) If I let someone use my telephone without confirming his identity, am I liable for crimes committed with this phone? This last example is, I submit, a nearly perfect parallel to anonymous remailers. And not because the telephone system is a "common carrier," but because of scienter: I have no knowledge, and cannot be expected to have knowledge, of crimes committed with my phone. If I have visitors at my house, perhaps at a party, and I let a stranger go ahead and make a call from the phone in a bedroom, for example, and he plans a drug deal, can my house be automatically seized? Not that I have ever heard about. Maybe so, but if this ever happens, expect an outcry against the asset forfeiture laws that will make Linda Thompson's protest seem tame. Now if I operate a pay phone and encourage dealers and pimps to use it, then maybe the public nuisance, RICO, or "crack house" laws can be used to shut it down. (The public nuisance laws are what I would look to to see remailers shut down, which will just move them offshore, of course. Absent laws about sending encrypted packets outside the country, nothing can be done.) And, finally, packages and letters may be mailed anonymously. This is what pre-paid stamps are all about. And I've used non-U.S. Postal Service package delivery sytems without providing identification. Can Federal Express have their assets seized because of "anonymous remailing"? (Quibblers will no doubt cite laws requiring FedEx to "cooperate," demand ID, etc.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Please ignore testing Private Idaho
by Joseph Olson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Did I get through anonymously?

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noise levels
by Anonymous User 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Perry E. Metzger" <perry(a)piermont.com> wrote: > Noise levels have been rising fast again. I encourage people to think > about whether things are on topic before they post. > > Perry > > This message is generated as part of an ongoing effort to keep noise off of the Cypherpunks mailing list (cypherpunks(a)toad.com) Your message contains no cryptography content. Please do not post messages of this sort to the Cypherpunks mailiing list in the future. Thank you for your cooperation; it will ensure that further action will not be necessary. -- USENET POLICE DEPARTMENT "To serve and obey, and guard men from harm"

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Noise levels
by Damaged Justice 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Once again I'd like to remind everyone that I run a customized filtering service that drops off a single message in your inbox every day or two, consisting of what I deem to be the most entertaining and informative posts. I also remove any non-topical rants that don't include useful information. This way, your overworked mail filters will never again have to deal with the Perry and Tim show. To subscribe, send a polite message to the human behind this address. -- http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet "Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos.

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Re: Leahy bill nightmare scenario?
by Gary Howland 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Timothy C. May writes: >At 11:12 AM 3/11/96, Gary Howland wrote: >>Dan Weinstein writes: > >>> If I rent cars, someone might one day use a car rented from me in a >>> robbery. Does that make my an accessary? NO. >> >>This is an unfair analogy. Now if you had said that you rented cars >>without asking for proof of identification, thus making your car hire >>centre very useful to robbers, that may more closely resemble the >>anon-remailer situation. > >If a hotel rents a room to someone who commits a crime in that room, e.g., >prostitution, drug use, plotting to blow up a building, can the hotel be >seized under the asset forfeiture laws? I didn't initially use the the car-hire analogy, I was just trying to bring it more into line with the anon-remailer situation. Perhaps a better example would be an agency set up for the sole purpose of hiring cars on behalf of anonymous customers - as long as the customers didn't abuse the anonymous facility too much, then I guess they would be allowed to carry on operating, much like the remailers operate at present. However, I guess they're in for trouble when their service starts being abused at the expense of big brother, and I guess their policy of shredding all evidence at weekends won't help matters either. >If I let someone use my telephone without confirming his identity, am I >liable for crimes committed with this phone? > >This last example is, I submit, a nearly perfect parallel to anonymous >remailers. And not because the telephone system is a "common carrier," but >because of scienter: I have no knowledge, and cannot be expected to have >knowledge, of crimes committed with my phone. But this doesn't match the remailer scenario - this example is better likened to me letting you use my email account whilst at my house. >And, finally, packages and letters may be mailed anonymously. This is what >pre-paid stamps are all about. And I've used non-U.S. Postal Service >package delivery sytems without providing identification. Can Federal >Express have their assets seized because of "anonymous remailing"? >(Quibblers will no doubt cite laws requiring FedEx to "cooperate," demand >ID, etc.) Yes, but when was the last time someone physically mailed copyright source code (eg RC2) to half the world? When was the last time a pair of lawyers made worldwide news due to making a phone call? Again, the anon-postal-mail/anon-telephone-call analogy doesn't work. Gary -- pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland <gary(a)kampai.euronet.nl> Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06

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Mile High Snakeoil
by Andrew Loewenstern 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Leahy bill nightmare scenario?
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:01 PM 3/11/96 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote: >At 11:12 AM 3/11/96, Gary Howland wrote: > >>Dan Weinstein writes: > >>> If I rent cars, someone might one day use a car rented from me in a >>> robbery. Does that make my an accessary? NO. >> >>This is an unfair analogy. Now if you had said that you rented cars >>without asking for proof of identification, thus making your car hire >>centre very useful to robbers, that may more closely resemble the >>anon-remailer situation. > >If a hotel rents a room to someone who commits a crime in that room, e.g., >prostitution, drug use, plotting to blow up a building, can the hotel be >seized under the asset forfeiture laws? >Not that I have heard. Your example is so misleading that it's wrong. Cities generally attack motels by threatening to pull their licenses, which is usually called an "administrative process" and thus few of the usual protections apply. >Does it matter if the hotel fails to extensively check identification? >(Hint: Rarely have I had my ID checked. Sometimes they ask for a driver's >license and write down the number...and we all know how easy it is to get >fake DLs. Mostly they don't.) They do if they've been harassed by the city, for example Portland Oregon to name the closest example I know. > >If I lend my chain saw to my next-door neighbor without confirming his >identity, and he carves up his wife, am I liable? Not in these parts. "Criminally", probably not. Civilly, probably if the victim's family has a good enough lawyer. >(If I lend my chain saw to a ranting, foaming maniac, am I liable? Perhaps.) Actually, then you're CRIMINALLY liable, as well. >If I let someone use my telephone without confirming his identity, am I >liable for crimes committed with this phone? >This last example is, I submit, a nearly perfect parallel to anonymous >remailers. And not because the telephone system is a "common carrier," but >because of scienter: I have no knowledge, and cannot be expected to have >knowledge, of crimes committed with my phone. Actually, that's wrong. The question will be asked, "Do you regularly lend your phone to strangers who you can't even see, no questions asked, without listening in to see that nothing untoward is being plotted?" _THAT's_ a more apt analogy. >If I have visitors at my house, perhaps at a party, and I let a stranger go >ahead and make a call from the phone in a bedroom, for example, and he >plans a drug deal, can my house be automatically seized? Not that I have >ever heard about. If your phone was already tapped, and the delivery occurred in your house, you'd better look for new accomodations. >Maybe so, but if this ever happens, expect an outcry >against the asset forfeiture laws that will make Linda Thompson's protest >seem tame. I prefer not to wait until the Pollyannas of this world have been proven wrong. >Now if I operate a pay phone and encourage dealers and pimps to use it, >then maybe the public nuisance, RICO, or "crack house" laws can be used to >shut it down. (The public nuisance laws are what I would look to to see >remailers shut down, which will just move them offshore, of course. Absent >laws about sending encrypted packets outside the country, nothing can be >done.) Justa sec: The Leahy bill makes "encryption furtherance of a felony" illegal. Sending encrypted packets out of the country, containing material you don't know (because they're encrypted) sounds like a classic opportunity to declare you in violation of some "conspiracy to violate the law" of some OTHER country, which is probably considered a Federal felony. Welcome to prison, Tim. Your optimism will serve you well, there. BTW, it is clear that you haven't yet read Mr. Junger's analysis of the bill. Nobody except a government stooge could read that and not wonder why anybody would support that bill. A complete re-write is called for. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: Clinton's fake apologies (fwd)
by HyperReal-Anon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, David Honig wrote: > There is no evidence that Clinton actually *inhaled* on the > flavored cigar... Something here is a little fishy...

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Re: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern.
by Michael Motyka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim, you said... ***** If you do decide to stake your laptop as refered above there are a few things to know.... - Make sure the stake is in suitable ground without lots of quartz and other similar peizo-electric materials. - The stake should extend at least 3ft. into the ground. - When the stake is driven in, the ground should be thoroughly wetted which usualy means quite a bit of water (30 gals or so should do it), if possible wet it over a 24 hour period prior to staking. - Make sure the stake and the cable leading to the laptop are copper (or silver if you're rich) - You don't want to be close to phone, power, and other sorts of underground utilities. **** Please explain to me why it matters that the box be grounded! Radiated energy from chips and traces is independent of your mongo ground strap to the mother ship. All the strap does is alter the DC potential. Shield your box well but design out the leg irons and the geological requirements. Mike

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