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How many people killed by there own governments (Was: Re: a retort + a comment + a question = [RANT])
by Joseph M. Reagle Jr. 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>With regard to b), governments--primarily through the use of >their militaries--have killed, by some counts 170,000,000, men, >women and children in this century alone. Hardly the guardians >of freedom, in my opinion. Do you have a breakdown of that number? I'm working on one of my thought experiments and am looking for the appropriate stats: o THUGS V. GOVS (during times of "modern" govts. 1800+) Deaths by Govts. on "own people" US Civil War x M US Native Americans Hitler: Jews 6 M Hitler: Others 6 M Stalin: 30 M China: Cult Rev x M France: Rev x M Deaths by Thugs Murders in whole world ^^^ See to be valid, I think I'd have to including thugs all over the world (since I use genocides all over the world) but if I had the death/person US figure, I could multiply that by the whole world and have a upper bound (conservative) since US has a partcularly large amount of murderes. _______________________ Regards, In every man's heart there is a secret nerve that answers to the vibrations of beauty. -Christopher Morley Joseph Reagle http://rpcp.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle(a)mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E

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Re: Federal Reserve Bank is ILLEGAL? [BOB DYLAN]
by Rich Graves 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Doug Renner wrote: > http://feustel.mixi.net/GOV/DEPTS/fedres.html > > Most list members would be very interested in the above link. Indeed. It's hilarious, especially the References section. Thanks! I think maybe you should take a look at the Noontide Press catalog. - -rich ObCopyrightViolation (not really on-topic, because Carto and Pierce were kicked out of the Birch Society, but it's funnier than, for example, <http://www.c2.net/~rich/nab9608-1.gif>): TALKIN' JOHN BIRCH PARANOID BLUES (Words and Music by Bob Dylan) 1970, 1973 Special Rider Music Well, I was feelin' sad and feelin' blue, I didn't know what in the world I was gonna do, Them Communists they wus comin' around, They wus in the air, They wus on the ground. They wouldn't gimme no peace. . . So I run down most hurriedly And joined up with the John Birch Society, I got me a secret membership card And started off a-walkin' down the road. Yee-hoo, I'm a real John Bircher now! Look out you Commies! Now we all agree with Hitlers' views, Although he killed six million Jews. It don't matter too much that he was a Fascist, At least you can't say he was a Communist! That's to say like if you got a cold you take a shot of malaria. Well, I wus lookin' everywhere for them gol-darned Reds. I got up in the mornin' 'n' looked under my bed, Looked in the sink, behind the door, Looked in the glove compartment of my car. Couldn't find 'em . . . I wus lookin' high an' low for them Reds everywhere, I wus lookin' in the sink an' underneath the chair. I looked way up my chimney hole, I even looked deep inside my toilet bowl. They got away . . . Well, I wus sittin' home alone an' started to sweat, Figured they wus in my T.V. set. Peeked behind the picture frame, Got a shock from my feet, hittin' right up in the brain. Them Reds caused it! I know they did . . . them hard-core ones. Well, I quit my job so I could work alone, Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes. Followed some clues from my detective bag And discovered they wus red stripes on the American flag! That ol' Betty Ross . . . Well, I investigated all the books in the library, Ninety percent of 'em gotta be burned away. I investigated all the people that I knowed, Ninety-eight percent of them gotta go. The other two percent are fellow Birchers . . . just like me. Now Eisenhower, he's a Russian spy, Lincoln, Jefferson and that Roosevelt guy. To my knowledge there's just one man That's really a true American: George Lincoln Rockwell. I know for a fact he hates Commies cus he picketed the movie Exodus. Well, I fin'ly started thinkin' straight When I run outa things to investigate. Couldn't imagine doin' anything else, So now I'm sittin' home investigatin' myself! Hope I don't find out anything . . . hmm, great God! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMofAP5NcNyVVy0jxAQEWUwH/VBpVAQeLio6vvqk4+Wku+y2zSETIqat8 KQso3BxkgV8mC3wiD7oC4YdJTnGIFnh5Zutt6po0wF/URkpda7zBcA== =r6Fl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: RSA and me...
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:14 AM 11/10/96 GMT, Gemini Thunder wrote: >'Lo. >Is the "RSA in 3 lines of Perl" a munition (under ITAR)? >What if I got it as a tatoo? Its been done. (Someone got it a year or so back...) What was funny about it was that i remarked (in jest) "what if the tattoo artist made a typo? Would it still be illegal?". Seems the tatto artist *HAD* made a typo and had to go back and fix it. I think that the person with the tattoo would be thrown in the LaBrea ITAR pits just to be safe... --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD." - alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano(a)teleport.com |

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FY 1997 classified programs list now available.
by ratak 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dc-stuff(a)dis.org Date: Mon Nov 11 19:16:08 1996 People! I got this message today, and the web site : http://www.frogi.org/classified-programs.html It has all the details, take a close look at what the U.S Goverment has been up to in regards to there classified programs branchs... God damn do they ever spend money...! All research done by:: Paul McGinnis / PaulMcG(a)aol.com http://www.frogi.org/secrecy.html [military secrecy site] - -----Begin Included Message ----- Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:44:14 -0500 From: PaulMcG(a)aol.com To: skunk-works(a)mail.orst.edu, area51(a)lists.best.com Cc: I have posted my new, extensive list of classified military programs (and the references I used to find them) in the FY 1997 budget at: http://www.frogi.org/classified-programs.html (NOTE: requires a Web browser with table support) There are some shocking revelations such as 31% of the Air Force's research and development budget is being spent on programs whose purpose -and- cost is classified. Doesn't anyone believe in public accountability for taxpayer money? ___________________________________________________________________ GarGoyle Securities - -Intrusion Assessment Systems - -Security Consultation/Education/Curriculum Development - -Project Management/Research/Analysis World Wide... - -Member of CITDC (Canadian International Trade Development Council) - -Email: ratak(a)GargSec.mb.ca (Jason E.J. Manaigre) - -Web: www.GargSec.mb.ca - -Email for PGP key with phrase 'Get Public Key' as Subject ___________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMofP4PqtmO8M92GRAQGrKQgAtmH+2O5k8AODrjR1qvBoR6Q37AqWJ6Rg OOF0OeugKHr1rppeJDYhYCHyBXQ5m+ktrpecpPKBDqfSbHFnjrMI9jmXUcs5KTPz JjV5C3EssD4TIj7/EcOwgV4qWt18I2T4D612nj3yQ3S68D+brUNCthrJpsEfKFKX yAnizzUOtnBLeosnUkz4FDF5lM5MgadU7/kCmO8k/g9NrZHfIj8PMifDVx4bLeCl E+MdXoSqZnY47+RECL7vFOEIlBTfjBRjf2C/QGWBc1W6feBgL5R1OlZBHv2hIZLZ 72DcDzt8pjhbebqIU0AM4mLmNwmQT2qh3p47VopVjHaIr2/uHg4+2w== =OR7L -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Why is cryptoanarchy irreversible?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>At 12:58 AM 11/8/1996, stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com wrote: >> Strong vs. weak crypto isn't the real issue - for most business use, >> weak crypto is obviously unacceptable, but strong crypto with GAK >> is ok as long as it doesn't interfere with use (and as long as the >> government bureaucrats don't sell too many keys.) To which, at 09:02 AM 11/8/96 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote: >We often say that the government is a security weak point and that >this makes GAK impractical. However, this is not true. If the >holders of the government keys were individually responsible for >their release, they would not be released very often. That is, >in order to use cryptography you must purchase an expensive >encryption license. That pays the salary of a certified "key >escrow agent" who is the only person who can decrypt your messages. >What stops him from revealing your keys to unauthorized parties? >It's his business. If that's not enough, you back it up with >criminal penalties for disclosure. And, hiring this person is >no different from hiring an employee for your company. > >There are already similar activities. Lawyers are nominally employees >of the state. Employees of Swiss banks can go to jail for violating >their secrecy laws. Then there is the meat-packing inspectors, I don't know if this should give piece of mind or instill new fear. The inspectors were put in there because the meat was rancid, the thing is, some of it still is if you listen to the critics. A partial fix at least. >At 12:58 AM 11/8/1996, stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com wrote: >> The government might be able to stop new Netscape versions from >> using strong crypto - threatening to confiscate the company's >> ill-gotten gains from aiding and abetting money launderers might help, >> and threatening to confiscate PCs that use unapproved crypto. >> But it's tough to use a widespread threat like that on popular >> software once it's out there. To which, at 09:02 AM 11/8/96 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote: >I agree, if the software is popular. But, if the fears of the GAKers >and the dreams of certain cypherpunks are real, such software will >not be popular. Another point is, if the government attacks Netscape for their strong crypto(which is pretty hard to get, I'm in Oklahoma and I couldn't get it because some server didn't know for sure that my server was in the United States or Canada), someone will probabally make an in-line plug-in for encrypted data, and this plug-in may affect more of the browser than the existing system, making it more dangerous to the governments schemes. Anyone know where the data is stored on how to write for Netscape?

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Re: Why is cryptoanarchy irreversible?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:02 AM 11/8/96 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote: >At 12:29 AM 11/8/1996, Jim McCoy wrote: >>Peter Hendrickson writes: >>[...] >>>> Get a warrant, search my system, find nothing but a bunch of applications >>>> and a collection of risque (but definitely legal) pictures which I exchange >>>> with a few friends. You may suspect that when the images are concatenated >>>> in a particular way the low-order bits form a stego filesystem but no one >>>> will be able to prove it in court. > >>> Are you concatenating these images by hand? If so, the level of entropy >>> is probably low enough to recover the information through brute force >>> methods or you are hiding a very small amount of information. > >> I hide the relatively small amount of data within a very large amount of >> data which makes it impossible to find. Data from analog sources, like >> the "real world" (images, sounds, etc) is noisy. This is a fact of life. >> Because this data is noisy I can hide information in the noise. As long >> as the information I am hiding maintains the same statistical properties >> of noise it is impossible to pull the information out of the data file unless >> you have the key. If I am paranoid enough I can make this key impossible >> to discover without a breakthrough in factoring. > >Where will you keep your secret key? Remember, when they go through your >house they bring 20 young graduates from MIT who are just dying to show >how clever they are and save the world at the same time. > >> This is the essence of steganography and the nature of signal and noise are >> fundemental principles of information theory. > >The concept of noise is not all that well defined, however. There is no >way to look at a signal and say "this is all noise." Sometimes physical >theories may lead you to believe that it is all noise. That is fine >for many applications, but when becomes less convinced of things if >the consequences are severe. > >>> If you are not doing it by hand, you own terrorist software and will pay >>> the price. > >> Ah yes, terrorist programs like cat and perl and operating systems like >> Linux which contain a loopback filesystem that I can hook a perl >> interpreter into at compile-time (which is enough for me to rewrite the >> program from scratch each time if necessary, unless things like math >> libraries are also outlawed on computers :) I think that the crypto >> concentration camps are going to be very crowded places. > >Can you elaborate on this? I am curious to know exactly what you are going >to keep in your head and what goes on the disk. Please post the Perl >code that you would type in from scratch every time. (Most of the message left for clarity) I would type dungeon at the prompt and Ctrl-Alt-6 at the first door. But that's just me. BTW. The hypothetical Steno program (Trojan Horse) that I wrote about earlier (and that this refers) could have its own source hidden in the opening screen of both the game and the bmp that I would use for my windows background. If anyone has access to the source of a soon to be released game, they could add this to it as an easter egg, thus, the author would be spreading a very powerful tool which would be advertized several months after it was released. If it were added to a program with references to cypherpunks or similar, it might even reach the (primary) target audience.

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Re: Exon Countdown Clock and farewell messages
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:59 AM 11/8/96 -0800, Michael Page wrote and Rich Graves forwarded: ... >We would attempt to send it via a Email, but the respected Senator does not >have Email. (The Irony). ... There is no irony here, Mr. Exon tried to control the internet for the very reason that he didn't understand it and one of his granddaughters did. Perhaps if he did understand the internet then he wouldn't be a threat. Remember, people fear that which they don't understand.

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Re: RSA and me...
by stewarts＠ix.netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Gemini Thunder wrote: >> 'Lo. >> Is the "RSA in 3 lines of Perl" a munition (under ITAR)? >> What if I got it as a tatoo? Lucky replied >Somebody did this. Check the RSA in perl homepage. Furthermore, you'd be wasting pain, time, and money. Perl5 makes it possible to do RSA in two lines of Perl :-) And that'd leave room on your arm for the 3-line RC4! If you want to leave the country with it, you might need to register as an, um, international arms dealer... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk

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Re: How many people killed by there own governments (Was: Re: a retort + a comment + a question = [RANT])
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:27 PM 11/11/96 -0500, Joseph M. Reagle Jr. wrote: >>With regard to b), governments--primarily through the use of >>their militaries--have killed, by some counts 170,000,000, men, >>women and children in this century alone. Hardly the guardians >>of freedom, in my opinion. > > Do you have a breakdown of that number? I'm working on one of my thought >experiments and am looking for the appropriate stats: > > >o THUGS V. GOVS > (during times of "modern" govts. 1800+) > >Deaths by Govts. on "own people" > > US Civil War x M > US Native Americans > Hitler: Jews 6 M > Hitler: Others 6 M > Stalin: 30 M > China: Cult Rev x M > France: Rev x M Don't forget that the likely cause of the 1917 world-wide influenza pandemic was probably caused or greatly increased in seriousness by the WWI movement of soldiers, and the conditions at the front. Had there been no war, there might still have been a very localized outbreak, but it would have been much less serious. The estimate of 170 million seems a bit high, but not by much. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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"Messer im Kopf"
by ph＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Messer im Kopf" is a German film made in 1978 which I highly recommend. Roughly translated its title is "Knife in the Head". It has relevance to many of the issues we have been discussing. In the late 1970s Germany was in a limited state of turmoil due to fears of "terrorist" (1) groups, particularly the Baader-Meinhoff gang. Around this time a curious incident occurred. The German government had had some success in apprehending some gang leaders. In response, the others hijacked a Lufthansa jet and demanded that the government release their friends. Four of the leaders of the gang then died in prison. The government declared these deaths to be suicides, but considerable doubt surrounds this claim. The government certainly wanted to discourage further hijacking experiments. The elimination of the gang leaders would certainly have sent a strong message. The logic is compelling. On the other hand, it is not inconceivable that the deaths were suicides intended to discredit the government. The Baader-Meinhoff gang popped up again in the late 1980s when they were suspected of having murdered the banker Alfred Herrhausen. (At that time their name had changed, but I do not remember what it was.) Their size was estimated to be about 20 active members with perhaps 3000 financial supporters. (2) Many other European trouble-making groups of the 1970s were successfully penetrated and virtually eliminated. The Baader-Meinhoff gang stands out as one which apparently solved this problem. (It is interesting that infiltration is the usual means of dealing with troublesome organizations.) The motivations of the group are unclear to me. It is widely assumed in the media that they were (or are) communists, but I have seen it suggested repeatedly that they were in fact sympathetic to the far right. (I haven't researched this. I do not know how open this question is.) "Terrorist" groups are interesting in that they generally do not have a known membership or location. Certainly, this is germane to many Cypherpunk discussions. In the late 1970s the German government considerably extended its surveillance and monitoring activities and was generally in a state of alarm regarding terrorists. Great effort was made to identify everybody. I can't say how much success they had in their stated goals, but I would love to know as it relates to some of the ideas we have been discussing. I assume the "security" infrastructure is still in place, which does not bode well for future German history. The film is set in the late 1970s and addresses many of the issues faced by Germans at that time. The main character is a scientist who is having marital troubles. His life becomes more complicated when he gets caught up in a scuffle the police are having with "suspected terrorists". He is shot - not knifed - in the head. After a long rehabilitation, he has no memory of what occurred. Every other person in the film attempts to use his ignorance for their own political or personal ends. More specifics would lessen your appreciation of the movie. More generally, you will see a portrayal of a society which is disentegrating. I found the police particularly alarming. It is not clear whether our own society is not on the same path. Some will find this heightens their interest. The grimness of institutionalized behavior comes through very strongly. Nearly every character in the film is employed directly or indirectly by the government. The film itself was funded by the German government. Yet, it is surprisingly skeptical of the government's role. It should be noted that there are no real terrorists in the film. The police and the "suspected terrorists" are playing a game of "cops and robbers" with the police holding the live ammunition. Don't think both sides don't both enjoy it! This is perhaps the most worthwhile aspect of the film. While everybody else is playing games, the main character is maimed, but the game goes on regardless. Many of has have had long discussions involving the implications of various technologies and how to effect the our kind of political change in the world. It is helpful to remember that real people are involved. The readers of this list are by no means the people who would benefit most from this lesson. "To win without fighting is best." -- Sun Tzu(?) That said, the film also gives a feeling for what it might be like to operate in a hostile domestic environment. The film is hard to get in the United States. Last I heard, you could rent it from a company in Chicago. If there is sufficient interest, it might be a good film for Cypherpunk Movie Night. An invited speaker who understands the film better than I do would be a possibility. Footnotes: (1) These groups committed acts which are typically described as "terrorist". It is unclear what the term means. When similar actions are committed by established groups, the term "terrorism" is not applied. The term originated at the time of the French revolution when some philosopher kings seized control of the government and executed a number of VIPs. The Economist published this excellent article: http://www.economist.com/issue/02-03-96/sf1.html (2) The IRA is said to have about 200 active members, which is an indication of just how much trouble a small group of people can make if they set their minds to it. Disclaimer: Some of the facts above may be slightly wrong as I am relying on memory. The gist of the text should be correct. Peter Hendrickson ph(a)netcom.com

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