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Re: Redlining
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:47 AM 12/11/1996, Timothy C. May wrote: >1. The _general_ subjects of "bigotry" and "redlining" are not >closely related to themes of this list, though the implications of >strong privacy for these issues is certainly on topic. (And my views >on these implications are well known...I've seen no point to step in >to the debate to repeat them, and don't plan to argue with Matt M. >about the "evils of bigotry.") > >2. Many of the posts by Matt M. and "Red Rackham" and others have >been so massive, containing paragraph-by-paragraph rebuttals of >political and ethical points, that I've just given up on trying to >follow the points. > >If anyone has well-formed questions about how redlining and "bigotry" >is affected by strong cryptography and crypto anarchy, fire away. >Just don't bury them deep in a long diatribe about the evils of >"prejudice" and "discrimination." Didn't Tim May originate the "Generation of Science" thread or, earlier, the sliderule thread? I don't think either topic can said to be strictly cypherpunk unless a discrete logarithm sliderule has been invented. The truth is that I enjoyed those threads as did most others on the list. I would like to see more like them. And, I dare say that my posts are more worthwhile than 7 out of 8 posts we've been seeing on the list lately. >(Personally, and off-topic for the list (so I'll be brief),... Point 1: You obviously find the subject interesting enough to comment on it. Others probably also find it interesting. Point 2: Excuse me if I am wrong, but your comments look to me to be precisely on topic for this list, anyway. >...the ills of our society seem to me to have _very little_ to do >with "prejudice." In fact, most people are not "discriminating" >enough, in the sense that discrimination implies value judgements and >assessments of probable success based on data available. As someone >noted, the Asian communities in the U.S. are doing well and are quite >"discriminatory" in lending policies. Get used to it, as crypto >anarchy will make coerced transactions even more difficult. The >racial and ethnic groups which are most into "victimology" are the >least successful--which is _cause_ and which is _effect_ may be >debatable to many of you, but the correlation is very clear....maybe >it's time they try something different, like getting their culture to >embrace learning, reading, science, math, and business success, >instead of glorifying victimization, crack cocaine, basketball stars, >and pimps.) This obsession of "on topic/off topic" is not healthy for the list. It stifles brainstorming and the free exchange of ideas. Red Rackham P.S. Sorry for the length of some of the messages. That Miszewski had the temerity to actually stand up for his beliefs, so it was unavoidable.

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Re: Redlining
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"ichudov(a)algebra.com" 11-DEC-1996 14:01:18.43 >The problem is, people can choose what credit history they want to have >(I can be a saver or a spender, for example), but nobody can change the >color of their skin. >This is central point of the theory why discrimination based on credit >histories is OK, while the discrimination based on race is not. First, I would point out that redlining does not necessarily equal credit discrimination based on race; it may mean credit discrimination based on poverty, which has an unfortunately high correlation with being a member of some races. (I won't go into the explanations for why this is the case here; most people who try to explain it don't take enough factors into account.) Second, let's take a look at whether inequalities based on factors that people cannot change is something that is wrong. This topic is wider in its application than redlining and credit; one example important to me in my field is in genetic screening usage for insurance purposes. (In that case, you've also got that limits on insurance uses of data when individuals can gather the data in question mean that someone can predict their own chances of needing insurance... leading to those who are healthy not purchasing it, and those who aren't purchasing it.) The first topic to mention in this regard is that of privacy. I believe I am among most people in finding a question about my behavior (e.g, my sexual activities) significantly more intrusive than a question about my personal characteristics (e.g., my gender). But I would hope that everyone would agree that it would be idiotic and irresponsible not to have someone's payments for insurance vary with their behavior; this would encourage irresponsible behavior and discourage responsible behavior. The second topic to mention in this regard is that inequality due to factors one cannot change is a fact of life. This is particularly true of capitalism (e.g., someone who has a genetic tendency toward large size will consume more food and thus spend more money on food), but it is also a problem in any other economic system - economics is not all of life. Even if one concludes that inequality is wrongful and needs to be "alleviated", there are many areas more important than credit on which one would logically start... such as forbidding merit-based admissions, which are biased in favor of those with higher IQs. I trust that my audience sees exactly why this idea, and similar ideas, are ultimately nonsense? The third topic is that one commonly applied idea used by the proponents of absolute equality is that found in Rawls' _Theory of Justice_, under which the just outcome is said to be found by a group of people who do not know what situation they will be in. (This is a vast oversimplification of the book(s) in question, which upon closer examination may realize the idea I am about to write down.) The simplistic conclusion is that everyone will want everything to be the same, since any individual might be in a bad or good situation. But if you have a choice between 49 dollars and a 50/50 chance of 0 or 100 dollars, you should take the latter. In other words, a situation in which inequalities exist can still be one that is overall better than a fully equal situation. There are a number of respects in which the insurance and credit markets fall under this category. The most obvious is the direct cost of regulation. Less obvious but perhaps more important is the uncertainty factor; the use of more data (for an insurance or credit decision) leads to less uncertainty in the ultimate outcome, and thus to less risk of unexpected claims (for insurance) or defaults (for credit). Thus, smaller businesses (which are also made more possible by lowering other regulatory costs) can exist in a deregulated insurance or credit market. The removal of the current ogliopolistic situation in such markets for the initial insurance or credit grantor would improve prices. -Allen

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PGP Public Key Server beta release available!
by Marc Horowitz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The new PGP Public Key Server which has been running on pgp.ai.mit.edu for the past several months is now available as a beta release. This is the first public release of the code, and while it has proven mostly reliable, it is not guaranteed to be perfect. Because it uses hash tables and balanced trees instead of a flat file format, it trades a disk space for a substantial performance improvement over the old pgp-based key server. The PGP Public Key Server home page can be found at <http://www.mit.edu/people/marc/pks/>. This page contains links to the sources, the server running on pgp.ai.mit.edu, and my thesis, which documents the specification and design of the key server. If you have any problems, questions, or comments, I read comp.security.pgp.tech. That's probably the best forum for discussion and questions, but you can send me email, too. In order to have an idea how how many people are using this key server, if you install it, for public use or not, please let me know. Marc Horowitz marc(a)mit.edu -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMq85Ce/JP4Ec8n/VAQE+pQP+OOKf9dC06RR/oL+wRPSVBg9TFOrnGhDu AT+qz2pAOchTnVZqPQKEDUr0mfDqmMhC9CU5oAjS36N3OFJoUwuwHSlt+4Ixnj9A ld0fVHKhyME4v+F6X/O7g6LOj07y6qIWcQqoGEqyFH08Keso8wXdH83BLjbN/8tl bwBpSZMUL7E= =Aqyq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Redlining
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"mjmiski(a)execpc.com" "Matthew J. Miszewski" 11-DEC-1996 16:21:56.21 >Actually, my assertion was that the basic motivation was racism and >ignorance. My example of student loan default rates should clear that up. >College graduates generally live outside of redlines and yet are regularly >offered credit. And yet default rates on student loans are outrageous (the >government backing of these loans is irrelevant to individual >creditworthiness). That some groups not within redlines have high default rates is not an argument against groups within redlines having high default rates. The market distortion caused by government sponsorship is certainly relevant to whether individuals are offered credit; I would suggest that in many cases the students in question would not be offered credit, as per their high default rates, if it were not for government sponsorship removing the risk from the lender. You have also not bothered to answer the criticisms from Mr. Rackham about why, if the sole motivations were racism and ignorance, people would not be offering the residents of such areas loans; as (he?) pointed out, this would appear to be a particularly attractive move for middle-class blacks, if your assertion was the case. -Allen

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Merry Christmas, You Punk-ass Mo'-fo's!
by Santa Claus 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

* * /|\ ///*\\\ * * * //\\ * //\\ * * * * * // \\ // \\ // \\ S A N T A * * * N O R T H P O L E | | \____/ Wherever you go, whatever you do, Remember that Santa is always with you. I live in your heart, I dance in your soul, I show you what love is, and good things to know. The Spirit of Christmas spreads all through the land, With joy and the giving of gifts you should have. But gifts are just one thing to give and to get -- We wish you much more, far more than that. My elves send you pride in whatever you do, My reindeer give strength on days you feel blue, My wife, Mrs. Claus, grants wisdom and grace, Belief in yourself and all you create. And me, what do I give? Is there much more? Plenty and plenty you won't find in stores. I give you the knowledge that you can do more Than you ever knew -- of that be quite sure. My sleigh's packed with toys, my list sweeps the floor, A cup of hot cocoa and I'm out the door. Just gaze high in the sky where Peace always soars, And you live in my heart as I live in yours. * * * * * * M e r r y C h r i s t m a s * * S a n t a C l a u s --------- This santa poem was sent to you from a person who visited the ReplyNet site (www.reply.net) and entered your name and address on our Santa page. Your e-mail address is NOT being collected.

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In Defense of Anecdotal Evidence
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:09 AM 12/12/1996, E. Allen Smith wrote: >From: IN%"mjmiski(a)execpc.com" "Matthew J. Miszewski" 11-DEC-1996 19:43:51.88 >>If I wanted to I could repeatedly issue heart-wrenching stories of >>poverty in America (similar, of course, to politicians using "real >>world examples" in speeches). You seem to assume that this would be >>"wrong". > > As did Ronald Reagan in talking about "welfare queens"... as >could I in discussing how my grandparents got out of poverty and have >two children with MDs and one with a PhD. Statistics are preferable >to anecdotal evidence for just this reason; I've seen that over and >over again in science. Anecdotes are for lawyers talking to juries >and demagogic politicians talking to the masses. Statistics are a useful tool, but they have their problems. Their accuracy is often in doubt. Most scientific data comes with an error analysis so you can tell what the figure means. For some reason statisticians never do this so we cannot tell whether their numbers are accurate to within 0.1%, 1.0%, 10%, or even worse. There are many other problems. For instance, users of statistics assume they have a random sample, even in cases where that is far from clear. Social statistics are a black art. There was a study awhile back which claimed gun ownership reduced violent crime. That is a surprising result. It was apparently obtained by subtracting out all the other factors that could explain the differences in the areas studied. This process must involve some real stretches statistically. I can't imagine how cultural differences are determined and subtracted - I assume it is a subjective process. Another problem with statistics is that they are difficult to verify. We may wish to verify the information in cases of deception - sometimes well meaning - but also for cases of statistical incompetence. It is also hard to explore the details of the study if the authors are unavailable. The advantage of first hand experience is that it is primary evidence. You know it's true because you were there and saw it. The advantage of anecdotal evidence (in the sense we have been using it) is that the person who is telling you the anecdote was there and saw it. You can cross-examine them and get a full understanding of the evidence provided. Specific examples, that is anecdotal evidence, also provide a nice framework for discussing our abstract beliefs about what is morally right or wrong, or what various parties should be expected to do or say in particular situations. Specific examples also make it possible for the participants in the conversation to deepen their own understanding of their experiences. You might have seen something and interpreted it in a particular way. Somebody else might be able to show you how you misinterpreted what you saw. Red Rackham

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Re: "Bigotry" and related topics...a brief comment
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"tcmay(a)got.net" "Timothy C. May" 11-DEC-1996 18:12:33.87 >If anyone has well-formed questions about how redlining and "bigotry" is >affected by strong cryptography and crypto anarchy, fire away. Just don't >bury them deep in a long diatribe about the evils of "prejudice" and >"discrimination." Yes... an analysis of the ways in which an insurance or credit company could keep its disallowed data in secret, with sufficient incentives for the individuals with knowledge of it not to disclose this practice, is an interesting topic. One of the more obvious ways is to subcontract the risk analysis to businesses operating in countries without such limits, leaving the main insurance or credit company with just the claims process, reserves management, and paperwork. Unfortunately, as shown by the EU's attempts to make multinationals doing business there keep data inside EU borders and under EU privacy laws, countries are likely to clamp down on this process. >difficult. The racial and ethnic groups which are most into "victimology" >are the least successful--which is _cause_ and which is _effect_ may be >debatable to many of you, but the correlation is very clear....maybe it's >time they try something different, like getting their culture to embrace >learning, reading, science, math, and business success, instead of >glorifying victimization, crack cocaine, basketball stars, and pimps.) While I would fully agree with you that such cultural factors are a considerable amount of the problem, I'd have to call attributing all of the problem to them an oversimplification. I'd also point out the cultural factors caused by the development of cultures under uncivilized (in the sense of lacking cities) and unindustrial conditions, something that is not helped by the current PC multiculturalist wish to bring such cultures back. (The reasons for African cultures not developing in this route are an interesting debate; I find Sowell's argument of lack of navigable rivers and the presence of various diseases such as malaria reasonably convincing.) Other factors include the lack of parental education and nutrition resulting in lower parental IQs resulting in lower child IQs; interracial adoption, while opposed by the PC types, is one way to solve this problem. Another factor is lingering racism, which is regretably still present in subsections of the country. Hopefully, as various factors promoting large, noncompetitive corporations (and unions) disappear, the resulting companies will be forced to be sufficiently competitive to ignore such prejudices. -Allen

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Re: Credentials without Identity--Race Bits
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:38 PM 12/11/1996, Timothy C. May wrote: By the way, on this >oftentimes off-topic issue of "bigotry" and "racism," here's a zinger >some of you may not have thought much about. And it's certainly >related to the themes of Chaumian "credentials without identity," >which is very much on-topic. > >While it has been claimed by some that "crypto anarchy" means that >race won't matter, that cyberspace interactions will be color-blind, >this is misleading. > >While many--probably most--users will care only for cyberspace >personna issues, and not meatspace personna issues of race, color, >height, weight, etc., this is not something built in to anonymous >transactions. > >Consider a "race credential" offered by some entity. Perhaps one goes >down to the local Aryan Nations office and gets one's genetic >heritage stamped, or down to the Kwanzaa Youth Center to be similarly >stamped.... > >(Why some groups might want this is left as an exercise for the >reader. Perhaps a less-inflammatory example (to some of the >sensitive amongst you) might be that some women want to interact in >"women only" forums--a clear case of discrimination, no?--and may >want a "gender bit" avaiable to display as a credential.) Tim May is to be commended for making this fine point. I simply had not thought of this possibility. This is also empirical evidence of the worth of a wide ranging discussion. If Matt and I hadn't pursued our discussion, this excellent point would not have been made. As Tim has pointed out, it is time to reconsider our beliefs regarding the morality of discrimination. The fact is, sometimes we like to spend time with people who have a lot in common with ourselves. This often supports a higher level of communication because the parties involved really understand where the other is coming from. This is true of men in the locker room, women, Albanians, or whomever. And what is occuring is not even a bad thing. It's good for people to spend time with people they like and respect or at least know well. ("No man is a hero to his valet.") The "politically correct" fully recognize this. That is why they see gay groups, feminist groups, etc. as worthwhile. It is only people perceived as successful or powerful who are not supposed to associate with each other. Instead, they are expected to volunteer their time and personalities for everyone else's benefit. Somehow we never hear what they are supposed to receive in return for this, but I am guessing they are supposed to lovingly accept rudeness, abuse, and guilt for their services. Tim said in another message that there are times when discrimination is rational. I have no doubt this is true. How often do we look at a degree from MIT on a resume and hire? The degree to which we fear cryptoanarchy is the degree to which we fear leaving people alone to run their lives as they see fit. I do not greatly fear cryptoanarchy. Red Rackham

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Re: Redlining
by drose＠AZStarNet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

M. Miszewski wrote: >Actually, my assertion was that the basic motivation was racism and >ignorance. My example of student loan default rates should clear that up. >College graduates generally live outside of redlines and yet are regularly >offered credit. And yet default rates on student loans are outrageous (the >government backing of these loans is irrelevant to individual >creditworthiness). Whoa! How 'bout backin' out minority-oriented "beauty" and other phony trade "schools" from your assertions? Looka-here: the moment that you exclude merit from scholastic and credit decisons, the more that you get into unfortunate decisons for society.

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Re: Redlining
by drose＠AZStarNet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Matt Miszewski wrote: (snip) > I wish I lived where you did where racism hurts nobody. Just >give me a general location and Ill start to move my clients there ;-|. A general location? Hee hee!

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