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Re: OECD crypto policy draft guidelines
by Robin Whittle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What is this list about?? Religion, the semantics of reality vs. perception or doing something constructive about crypto policy??? The latest draft of the OECD guidelines are now at my WWW site. http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr/crypto/oecd_dr.htm Check them out - especially para 59. All the bad bits have been relegated to debateable things in square brackets. Get your mind into this and get your comments to Marc Rotenberg - who I understand is involved with the OECD crew. So much for "PICS is not censorship" being off topic for this list! - Robin . Robin Whittle . . http://www.ozemail.com.au/~firstpr firstpr(a)ozemail.com.au . . 11 Miller St. Heidelberg Heights 3081 Melbourne Australia . . Ph +61-3-9459-2889 Fax +61-3-9458-1736 . . Consumer advocacy in telecommunications, especially privacy . . . . First Principles - Research and expression - music, . . music industry, telecommunications . . human factors in technology adoption. . . . Real World Interfaces - Hardware and software, especially . . for music .

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Re: Redlining
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"mjmiski(a)execpc.com" "Matthew J. Miszewski" 11-DEC-1996 03:52:03.23 >This is the essence of, at least, my disagreement with you Red. I dont >agree that redlining doesnt harm people. You see no harm. I do. Of course redlining causes harm to those who are redlined... they can't get credit. But the same can be said of any system of keeping track of who is likely to repay credit; it means that someone who has defaulted on past loans won't get future ones. Quite simply, while I would agree with you that racism certainly persists (it would be difficult for me to grow up in the South and not see this), I would argue that you have no evidence for that the basic motivation behind redlining is that the people in such areas are less likely to repay credit. -Allen

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WEB: Yahoo/Firefly Website recommendation service
by Alexander Chislenko 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Firefly Network Inc. has just launched a public beta of our website recommendation service on My Yahoo! This service is the result of a partnership between Yahoo! Inc. and Firefly Network, Inc. in application of Automated Collaborative Filtering (ACF) technology to the Web. It allows users to find interesting websites interest and like-minded people, and otherwise help the user navigate the vast domain of sites and people in an intelligent and personalized way. To access the service, please go to <http://my.yahoo.com/> and then click on Firefly button (top right). The recommendation system draws its intelligence from users' ratings. At this point, the database is still small, so you may not get recommendations in all categories and the ones you get may not be optimal. However, as the system collects more ratings and learns more about your personal preferences, you will notice better and better performance. Your ratings will be included into the initial rating database and will help shape experience of many people who will come to the system after you, so please be considerate rating sites. If you have any remarks on the quality of the system or its interface, please send a message to <webfly-seeding(a)firefly.net> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alexander Chislenko <sasha1(a)netcom.com> www.lucifer.com/~sasha/home.html Firefly Network, Inc.: <alexc(a)firefly.net> www.ffly.com 617-234-5452 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Data Security in Buildings
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As follow-up of the recent discussion of RF detection, we've put a 1995 article on data security in buildings at: http://jya.com/datasec.htm It describes architectural measures to protect data beyond that provided by encryption. We offered this article by E-mail in 1995. Ta-da: a request came from DOJ. It cautions that the global snooping is booming, so what worked in 1995 may be Moscow-Embassy Potemkin: for security hire an ex-KGB spookitect!

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Re: Redlining
by Matthew J. Miszewski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 03:05 AM 12/11/96 -0700, drose(a)azstarnet.com wrote: >Many people of good will find racial discrimination to be abhorrent. OTOH, >I'm sure that as an attorney you are cognizant of the fact that financial >institutions have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. Are you suggesting that a fiduciary responsibility is violated by *not* redlining? I stated before that all *real* qualifying factors remain in force. The only irrelevant method to be eliminated is place of residence. Granted, if a certain bank only made loans through direct mail campaigns or some such, an argument *might* be made that risks are higher in certain residential neighborhoods. Breach of fiduciary duty would be thrown out almost immediately as a claim. > >In any case, have you given any consideration to taking your well-meaning >but off-topic thoughts to any one of a number of perhaps more appropriate fora? > Actually, I mentioned redlining as an aside to a totally different point. Red has asserted, and I tend to agree, that this is actually on point. We are discussing the possibilities of crypto anarchy. Matt -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMq8U4bpijqL8wiT1AQG+KgP9GOTcxgKTqR+AgUf2qiRjO97kV+QdQ7Tq 6PZIjQYmgSM6YS5Yg75A8iSD2soi9ZFfEM++6TGHqCZ1ViLpNTuQZJGjxB3mUs8D U5eYiPmUEw9NC0z0CCwIPFyxouWtL4lhG3rUEopLuUuqB1OwPkbShIddkGxYRnqt prsuIc6m314= =zUqA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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The Redlining Topic
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:05 AM 12/11/1996, drose(a)AZStarNet.com wrote: >Matthew J. Miszewski wrote: >Many people of good will find racial discrimination to be abhorrent. >OTOH, I'm sure that as an attorney you are cognizant of the fact that >financial institutions have a fiduciary responsibility to their >shareholders. > >In any case, have you given any consideration to taking your >well-meaning but off-topic thoughts to any one of a number of perhaps >more appropriate fora? A discussion of redlining is very much on topic for cypherpunks. Capital markets and their (alleged) inefficiencies are very close to the heart of cypherpunk thinking. A thread we haven't pursued, but will likely get to, is the ways in which inefficiencies are typically introduced by the government, even in the case of redlining. After that point is made, a discussion of the ways in which cryptoanarchy will circumvent governmental scheming will certainly be germane to this forum. Discussions of the nature of bigotry and racial discrimination lie very close to the cypherpunk thinking. In a cryptoanarchy it will be very hard to enforce our ideas of what other people should think. Affirmative action, anti-redlining laws, etc., will likely become far less effective. Disaster? No, a blow struck for human dignity and freedom. Similarly, allegedly well-meaning programs to help the poor through seizure of other people's assets will not do well in a cryptoanarchy. Is this a terrible outcome? Not really. The reasons why are worth discussing and they are worth discussing in this forum. The cypherpunks list benefits from a wide ranging discussion. This was one of the original ideas of the group and is, presumably, why it is a completely open mailing list. These sorts of complaints are particularly inappropriate now that there are two other restrictive mailing lists available for those who want them. One is coderpunks. The other is Perry Metzger's cryptography list. A wide ranging discussion is beneficial because it allows us to truly explore our ideas. Not only do we then achieve a deeper understanding, but completely new ideas also arise. "Let a hundred flowers bloom, let a hundred schools of thought contend." I note that in your comments above, you couldn't resist making a comment which is, apparently in your view, off topic. I would encourage you to pursue these ideas. You obviously find them interesting. Rather than making killjoy comments, which do nothing to promote the discussion, perhaps you should consider posting long thoughtful posts which you believe would raise the level of discourse in this forum. Barring that, learn how to use a killfile. You can killfile on subject line. You can killfile on origin. (I sign my posts consistenly, so they can be killfiled, even though I am posting through the remailers.) Red Rackham

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Re: Redlining
by Douglas Barnes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Another interesting aspect -- there's been huge growth in the "making loans to folks with non-traditional or bad credit histories" market recently, as the market for folks with good credit histories has become saturated. This has been done largely by various NBFIs operating outside of the normal "bank" structure, and specializing in certain kinds of consumer loans. It is vitally important to realize that to a bank, a loan is a "product," that they "sell" to customers. It is how the bank makes money. If the market is operating properly, irrational refusals to loan on the part of some institutions will create a market opportunity for other institutions. The problem with banking & financial services is that they are already so heavily regulated, and the barrier to entry is so high, that the market seldom operates properly. Thus we see _more_ regulation piled on (such as the CCRI) to address the problems that come about from the previous piling-on of regulations. When there is little competition between banks, this creates a situation which, viewed in isolation, seems "unfair" to those at the fringes of the loan market. The superficial answer to this problem is to force banks to lend in areas that are less profitable for them than their traditional areas -- at this point banks almost begin to resemble monopoly public utilities, which, when you look at the regulations they operate under, is almost the case. The more enlightened answer is to back off enough on the regulation so that marginal loan markets become attractive business opportunities, and any truly irrational lending practices (e.g. based on race) lead directly to losing business to a competitor. Doug At 11:31 AM 12/11/96 EDT, you wrote: >From: IN%"mjmiski(a)execpc.com" "Matthew J. Miszewski" 11-DEC-1996 03:52:03.23 > >>This is the essence of, at least, my disagreement with you Red. I dont >>agree that redlining doesnt harm people. You see no harm. I do. > > Of course redlining causes harm to those who are redlined... they >can't get credit. But the same can be said of any system of keeping >track of who is likely to repay credit; it means that someone who has >defaulted on past loans won't get future ones. Quite simply, while I >would agree with you that racism certainly persists (it would be >difficult for me to grow up in the South and not see this), I would >argue that you have no evidence for that the basic motivation behind >redlining is that the people in such areas are less likely to repay >credit. > -Allen >

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Check out today's Salon
by Martin Minow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

There's an article on Phil Zimmerman in today's Salon http://www.salon1999.com/news/newsreal.html Martin.

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Commerce Crypto Export Regs
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forward from: cyberia-l(a)listserv.aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:55:52 -0800 From: Cindy Cohn <Cindy(a)MCGLASHAN.COM> Subject: Draft of Commerce Department Crypto Regs Steptoe and Johnson have kindly posted the draft Commerce Department regulations on encryption exports at http://www.steptoe.com/commerce.htm. [Snip] If you have trouble getting through, we've mirrored this document at: http://jya.com/commerce.htm

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Credentials without Identity--Race Bits
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

By the way, on this oftentimes off-topic issue of "bigotry" and "racism," here's a zinger some of you may not have thought much about. And it's certainly related to the themes of Chaumian "credentials without identity," which is very much on-topic. While it has been claimed by some that "crypto anarchy" means that race won't matter, that cyberspace interactions will be color-blind, this is misleading. While many--probably most--users will care only for cyberspace personna issues, and not meatspace personna issues of race, color, height, weight, etc., this is not something built in to anonymous transactions. Consider a "race credential" offered by some entity. Perhaps one goes down to the local Aryan Nations office and gets one's genetic heritage stamped, or down to the Kwanzaa Youth Center to be similarly stamped.... (Why some groups might want this is left as an exercise for the reader. Perhaps a less-inflammatory example (to some of the sensitive amongst you) might be that some women want to interact in "women only" forums--a clear case of discrimination, no?--and may want a "gender bit" avaiable to display as a credential.) But, you may ask (if you are new here or haven't been following the work of Chaum and others), won't display of such a race or gender bit compromise one's identity or be easily forged? The simple answer is "No." Hal Finney has written several good articles for this list about "credentials without identity." And of course David Chaum wrote the originals. The canonical example is that of an "age field" in an unforgeable ID card, granting one access to, say, a bar, without revealing identity. (This become especially important in an age of smartcards and wide use of cardreaders at entr points to various places...without a "credentials without identity" system, every passage through such a portal provides too much information to those compiling surveillance records, dossiers, customer preference lists, etc.) But a "race field" would allow those who wish to only communicate with certain races to do so. Just to set the record straight, and one reason ethnic separatist groups are likely to become intensely interested in crypto anarchy. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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