- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

The reason we need to give up our rights...
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We are told that we must give up our right to privacy in order for the government to protect us from the horrors of child molesters, et al. Recently, a Canadian man was charged with 572 instances of having individual and group sex with pre-teenage boys. He was sentenced to a 'duece-less' (two years less a day), which is 'soft time' in Canada, and is served in a provincial jail instead of a federal institution. We are expected to give up our right to privacy so that the sores on our children's bums can be healed just in time for this guy to get out and have another go at them? Would it be ridiculous to suggest that the government *needs* this man back out on the streets in 16 months (if he does 'good time') because there is a shortage of child molesters to hold over our heads for their next attack on our rights and liberties? Hell, give Tim McVeigh a pardon, and then use it for an excuse to make use of compost in the commission of a crime a felony. Personal not to FedUpMonger: I'm just OldAndTiredMonger. I don't need this shit anymore.

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Re: Jim Bell sentencing delayed
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg, What's your take on repeated delay in Jim's sentencing: 1. A squeeze on Jim to finger co-conspirators. 2. Weak case, must use procedure to punish. 3. To let time served be the sentence. 4. Jim was up to something worse now being discovered (like 5 below). 5. Jim is a secret gov agent, now feet up in Tacoma IRS laughing at those who fell for suckerbait, screwball AP written by IRS as a sting (a recent book package to Jim was returned marked "Not in Jail"). 6. The court was hoodwinked by IRS, too, and the AUSA is preparing an indictment of the stingers and federal defenders and who knows who else that was in on it. 7. Secret Agent Jim is squealing on his double-crossing secret agents, cutting a deal with whoever else is double- crossing whomever. He's going down, they're going down, we're going down, the whole country's going down; Up the Revolution!

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Re: Protocols for Insuran
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Monty Cantsin wrote: > The Emergency Room Scenario is a little more challenging. One > way to deal with it is to wear some obvious signs of wealth like > a $10,000 watch. In a pinch you can give them the watch. ;-) > (Some of the nurses won't know what it is, but the doctors will, > I am sure.) Except that very likely you'll be in the Emergency Room in the first place, because you got shot during the mugging for your watch -:) Does that count as "evolution in action" too? :)

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Re: Protocols for Insuran
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com wrote: > Actually, the real "sucker rates" are the amounts small > > businesses pay for insurance. > The big businesses (who can buy in bulk) get a pretty reasonable > deal for what they get. The smaller companies who cannot > bargain the price down get screwed. (The rate my wife's > employer was paying was close to double what my insurance costs > and it covered ALOT less.) > I seriously doubt that most people could afford to self-insure > at the going rate. (Not unless they have some serious income > they want to get rid of.) Think of this as "evolution in action" <G>

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Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:35:38 +0000 > From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths(a)exeter.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT > Mark wrote: > > > > Jim Choate wrote: > > > Indeed. Yet in a democracy, any two other members are assumed to know > > better than me, and any 51% to know better than the other 49%. > > > > Democracy is merely the scoundrel's last attempt to maintain the divine > > right of kings by coverting it into the divine right of the elected. > > > > >Which means we should have the lowest number of incarcerated individuals > > >instead of the most. I didn't write any of this. Please be more careful with your quotes. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:28:52 +0100 (MET) > To: Jim Choate <ravage(a)ssz.com> > Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd) > > It doesn't make it right whether it is the Khmer Rhouge, SOG, Shinning Path, > > The SLA, CIA in Laos or Columbia, Ruby Ridge, KAL 007, TWA 800, IRA, SDS, > > Black Panthers, or some old lady in Ill. who wants to committ suicide. > > Suicide is hardly a terrorist action. [Names withheld to protect the terminaly stupid] It isn't the act your moron, sorry; more-off, it's the reason. Pay attention and quit napping, this isn't television. There are no commercials. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 04:13:59 -0800 (PST) > From: mark(a)unicorn.com > Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT > Jim Choate wrote: > >If we as individuals can't make our own decisions about what is best for us, > >what makes you think some stranger will do any better? > > Indeed. Yet in a democracy, any two other members are assumed to know > better than me, and any 51% to know better than the other 49%. No, it doesn't - your definition of democracy is a simplistic if not childish view intended to cast democracy in the worst possible light imaginable. What you describe is a democracy which has no bill of rights or explicit limitations on the issues that the democratic body can vote on. Obviously there is nothing in the definition of a democracy that prevents those founding the democracy from stating: "Congress shall make no law respecting ..." or "The rights of the people to .... shall not be infringed." Grow up. > Indeed, thereby proving that democracy *doesn't* work. You've proved nothing except your a priori dislike for democracy because you want to convince others you are an angel. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 02:57:51 -0600 > From: TruthMonger <tm(a)dev.null> > Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)) (fwd) > Jim Choate wrote: > > > Juries are supposed to be composed of your peers, not who the prosecution or > > defence believe will best support their case. It should be that the first 12 > > poeple called who don't have a valid excuse to be excused are the jury, the > > next 12 are the back-ups. > > You're way off base here, Jim. As a matter of fact, the government > goes to extraordinary lengths to make certain that we get a jury of > our peers. No, I just hit a home run. The fact is that if the defendant is facing a charge that can result in the death penalty *NO* juror will sit on that jury who will a priori eliminate the death penalty as a potential verdict. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:40:35 +0000 > From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths(a)exeter.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd) > > > We hear on TV etc people saying "If this draconian measure saves the > > > life of one innocent child its worth the loss of my right to walk in > > > the park, or whatever". This is clearly shit, but can people suggest a > > > sensible measure of when new legistlation is justified? > > > > Is this a trick question, or sumpin'? > > > > If not, then the answer is "the Constitution." > > I was trying to start from somewhere more fundamental than the > Constitution, but if I understand you, you're saying that an arbitary, > allbeit 'self-evident', set of limitations are set down (i.e. the US > Constitution) at some point in time and no new laws should be made that > contradict this set of rules. > By doing this, aren't we putting a dictatorial limit on whatever > democracy we come up with? In effect saying "we're all equal under God, > and God wrote the Constitution"? No, that is not the way it works at all. [Geesh] Let's start from the beginning, shall we. Our government does *NOT* start with the Constitution [one spin-doctor approved lie down]. It starts with the Declaration of Independance. It defines those self-evident issues of a democracy we are speaking of. Further, the founding fathers [NOT just the framers of the Constitution; second spin-doctor approved lie down] felt those rights were God given because they were inherent in being a human being, not something like a drivers license you had to prove you were responsible enough for and could be taken away [third spin-doctor lie down]. You got those rights (barring social institutions to the contrary, which are a challenge to overcome for democracies - and we fail miserably) because you breath and shit - period. [fourth spin-doctor lie down] Even my being a pantheist, and hence rejecting the concept of divinity, allow that we have rights which are inherent in our existance (Nature's God, which for me are synonymous). Rights that can only be taken at the pain of death or continued violence [fifth spin-doctor lie down]. That violence abrogates the social contract between myself and others (ie society) because it does not allow me the latitude that is mine by simple existance [sixth spin-doctor lie down]. Allow me to quote the first and part of the second initial paragraphs of that founding document: When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation. We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness--That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such Principles and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of Abuses and Ursurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. *THAT* is the definition of democracy, *NOT* some bullshit definition that a government spin-doctor spews forth in a government spin-doctor institution better known as a school telling you that some ephemeral 'rule-of-law' is the ultimate authority in this country [seventh spin-doctor lie down]. Political oppressors are like the Terminator, you can't reason with them and it will kill you. They're meat-bop (thanks Rudy!) machines with faulty processors. Democracies should be based on cooperation, NOT compromise (ie giving up rights to make sombodies elses job easier). [eighth spin-doctor lie down] Tim and others predict a revolution, while I agree in principal that a social and political revolution and hence an accounting (hopefuly with about another 50 amendments to the Constitution) is coming I disagree that it will or needs to be violent. This ilk of 'patriot' hates so much they have become what they hate - users of violence to get their way and to hell with the consequences. They're simply the next wave of oppressors if we let them. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:06:00 +0000 > From: Tim Griffiths <T.G.Griffiths(a)exeter.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd) > But the bit I'm trying to get at. Doesn't the idea of what those rights > are change from social group to social group? Do they? My thesis is that people are people and the basic things that make them satisfied and productive are the same: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Prove that people over time change their base behaviour or that that base behaviour is fundamentaly linked to the societial more's that they are exposed to. Note, that there is a distinct difference between these base behaviours and how they express them. > Furthermore, doesn't having > a irrefutable set of laws place a fundamental (ist) limit on a > democracy that exists under them? Who, other than you, has said that there was a such thing as irrefutable laws? Laws or not rights, if your assertion is this please be so kind as to demonstrate that as well. Demonstrate that such a concept as irrefutable laws has an existance as anything other than idle mental mechanations. > Is it possible to have a true > democracy without the assumption of a 'higher authority'? Where in a democracy is there the assumption there is a higher authority than the governed? ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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