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Skype security evaluation
by Steven M. Bellovin 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Skype has released an external security evaluation of its product; you can find it at http://www.skype.com/security/files/2005-031%20security%20evaluation.pdf (Skype was also clueful enough to publish the PGP signature of the report, an excellent touch -- see http://www.skype.com/security/files/2005-031%20security%20evaluation.pdf.sig) The author of the report, Tom Berson, has been in this business for many years; I have a great deal of respect for him. --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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Bamford on the NSA and the Greek mobile phone tapping scandal
by John Ioannidis 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

As some of you may remember, there was a scandal in Greece back in February 2006 involving the interception of mobile phones belonging to high-level government officials, including the Prime Minister. The CALEA software on the Ericsson switches used by Vodafone was blamed; it had apparently been surrepticiously turned on and was copying traffic to an equal number of "shadow" phones. An thorny point in the investigation was the revelation that the "shadow" phones had also been used to make phone calls to Laurel, MD. An interview with James Bamford on the possible role of the NSA in the "Mavili-gate" was published in last Sunday's (5/8) "To Vima", one of the major Athens newspapers. I contacted the journalist, Alexis Papahelas, asking for permission to forward the article to this list, and he was kind enough to send me the original raw transcript. Here it is, very slightly edited for obvious transcription mistakes. The published article (in Greek) can be found in: http://www.tovima.gr/print_article.php?e=B&f=14755&m=A20&aa=1 -- Mr. Bamford Good Evening from Athens, thank you very much for being with us tonight. JB: My pleasure -- Let me ask you first of all, there has been a lot of discussion here in Greece about this lawful interception software, explain to me what it is, and whether the US put pressure on worldwide companies to install that after 9/11 especially? JB: Well the software is basically used to attach to commercial communication facilities, like the AT&T in the US, or whatever commercial company it is, and anything that goes over these communication facilities gets picked up, whether it is e-mail, or telephone calls and divert it to the US Government, whoever attached the equipment. -- Is it your understanding that most of the hardware companies around the world, that provide mobile telephone companies with equipment, had this installed at some point? JB: Well in the US there was a lot of requiring that US companies do it, but around the world I think there was pressure by the US for a lot of the friendly countries to the US, allied countries to do as much as they can in terms of domestic eavesdropping and this type of equipment is most useful for that. -- As you know, during the Olympics here in 2004, a lot of the US intelligence agencies were here, based here, they had a lot of equipment here, now do you imagine they were able back then to monitor conversations between mobile phones here in Greece? JB: Oh, the technology has been long in existence for them to be able to monitor mobile phone calls, the US monitors phone calls all over the world, and it has the equipment, so I would imagine that especially since there was a large US contingency at the Olympics in Athens, that they would have, the NSA would have had a presence there with an eavesdropping capability. -- Give us a sense of you know, what an NSA operation would entail here in Greece. JB: Well, what would have happened was, the US would fly over a team plus equipment. They would first scan out the best places to maybe put antennas to intercept microwave communications, communications that would carry mobile phone signals, for example. On the other hand they could have also worked out an agreement with Greek telecommunications companies, or the Greek Government to install NSA equipment on their facilities in order to monitor the communications, so it is hard to say but there is very little question that the NSA did a lot of monitoring during that period of time. -- What you are saying is very important to us, so to my understanding is that the NSA does strike, I suppose secret agreements, with phone companies around the world, is that what you are saying? JB: Oh sure, it tries as much as it can to get phone companies around the world to co-operate with the NSA in order to help its world-wide monitoring operations. -- And would it be acceptable for them also, to try to recruit some people from inside the companies, if they cannot strike such an agreement? JB: Yeah, NSA does that too it will try to make a deal, to get somebody to co-operate. In the old days the NSA would try to get a code-clerk at an Embassy to co-operate, but these days they try to get people, that have access to large databases, or telecommunications facilities. -- We have sent you e-mails, and you have an idea of what this Greek system of interception looked like. Does it tell you something, I mean how sophisticated is it, does it tell you it is a US intelligence agency, a British, somebody else? What is your assessment? JB: Well I think it is pretty much a standard communications system, in terms of mobile phone calls and so forth, they all pretty much operate the same way, it is just that it is a different frequency, maybe some different equipment, but the ideas are that the signals go from the hand-held cell-phone to a repeater and from a repeater to maybe another repeater, eventually making their ways back to central telephone exchange where the information is retransmitted out to wherever it is supposed to go, so the NSA is set up for one reason and that is to eavesdrop on communications around the world so this would not be a tremendous technological difficulty for them. -- But can you say with some certainty that this was an American operation, or it could be somebody else? JB: Well, I am just speculating because I don't know for sure, but if the NSA was over there during the Olympics, and the US almost always sends a team consisting of people including NSA people to major events around the world, where Americans are going to take part, to try to find out if there is going to be any terrorism, and one way of doing that is by monitoring the communications, that go through the air, the communications that are communicated both internally and externally from that country. -- How many mobile phone-call-conversations could the NSA monitor in a country like Greece on any given day? JB: It is hard to say. What they would probably do , is to focus on the key-links where they think that the bulk of the communications-exchanges are going to be and probably intercept those kind of communications. And once they intercept them, the NSA would have computer-facilities so that the communications would go through the computers and they are probably going to be looking for calls from Afghanistan, information that they think is very susceptible to terrorism, for example in other words numbers that they have of previous terrorist contacts. They would all be fed in the computer, and then any e-mail or telephone-call with those numbers or e-mail- addresses would be kicked out. -- Now, who translates all of these things, because I imagine it is like thousands of hours of conversations that are being transmitted to NSA. everyday. JB: Well it is, but they take in enormous amounts of communications, but filters, computerized filters sort of get rid off by 98% of it, and there is only a 2% that actually gets analyzed in the end. And those 2% are whether names in the computer, people that they are suspicious of, telephone numbers that they are looking for, e-mail-addresses, and once they get down to those, and they do have a number of people that speak a wide variety of languages, including Greek at NSA. -- What is the most technologically advanced way of intercepting mobile phone conversations? Because for a while we are assuming that the code of transmitting over the air is safe. Is it still safe or has the NSA broken it? JB: No, if the communications are traveling through the air, which they do by a mobile phone call, they are going to go a very short distance so they get to a repeater and they eventually go to a central telephone office, so again if you are able to intercept those signals as they go through the air, which you would basically just need a microwave antenna, or if you have co-operation of the company or the Government, then you can get access of that. I mean they are not intercepting the entire communications systems by entering or leaving the country, certainly, but they are probably looking at certain key communications-node, where they think there may be communications coming from lets say places like Afghanistan, or Iraq or some place like that. -- Give us a sense of the Size of NSA, in terms of the budget of people working for it and so on. JB: NSA is the largest intelligence agency in the world, and it is twice the size of the CIA, it is far more secret, and it has about 38.000 people. Again NSA's entire job, at least until recently, was to spy overseas, to eavesdrop on communications in foreign countries. So most of those people are either at the headquarters at NSA, or else in countries around the world. NSA over the years has had a number of facilities in Greece at various times, I am not sure if they have one there now, but in the past they have had bases in Greece. -- And do you think they are focusing in that area from what you know, from your research, was Greece always sort of an important target for them? JB: Well, Greece has always been a target, I think it depends on world climate how important it is at various times, I mean right now it probably has less importance than it did in other times, because now they are focusing primarily on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, N. Korea, areas like that, but if it looks like some terrorists are coming into Greece, or are operating in Greece, or if it looks like the Government may be communicating with countries that the NSA is very interested in, such as Iran, Iraq or any places in the Middle East than the NSA would be very interested. -- Let me go back to what was the Greek system and so on.You had said in previous answer that there are very few people in the world, that could actually manipulate this Eriksson software in order to gain access to this system. How many people in the world have this kind of knowledge? JB: I don't know how many people around the world, but NSA's job, that is their entire job. This agency was created for one purpose and that is to eavesdrop on the maximum matter of communications around the world. NSA could find a way to get a trapped door or a back door into say an Eriksson telephone system, you know they would do it. Because those systems are used by people all over the world. -- In this case we are talking about a very big cell-phone- company, VODAFONE, which is a multinational as you know, would they risk you think their reputation, and you know, go ahead and co-operate with NSA at that level? JB: I would think that they would not co-operate at that level, but what the NSA normally does, is it hires people that have worked for companies like that, and these people tell them how the systems work and then their job with NSA is to reverse engineer these systems, to find ways into them, so although I doubt that the head of Eriksson would co-operate with NSA, the NSA has enormous technological capabilities to find sort of back doors, or trapped doors, or ways by reversed engineering into these systems. -- Knowing how these people work there is a legal investigation, a judicial investigation here in Greece, do you think they will ever find the answers, I mean who was behind this interception, any physical evidence, any traces? JB: Well, it is hard to say. This happened in the US several times, where there has been a question, whether monitoring has been legal or not, and they have looked into it occasionally and they have found an answer as to who was involved with it, but a lot of times they do not find him. Again with NSA, NSA keeps its information so very-very secret, they wouldn't even let the judges on the surveillance court, they are supposed to prove NSA warrants about it, they wouldn't let Congress except for 8 people. Over 500 people know about it, so NSA tries to keep it extremely secret. -- You are one of the world experts in this kind of issues, so if you had to take a bet today who was behind this kind of operations in Greece? JB: I just cant say, I don't know enough information about it , all I can tell you is that NSA's job is eavesdropping on communications around the world , Greece is a target occasionally whenever they think there is something important. NSA has bases in Greece and NSA looking for indications of terrorism during the Olympics, so whether they are involved with this recent operation I don.t know but certainly they have an interest in it. -- Your advice to someone using a mobile phone, should they talk openly or no? JB: The problem, cell phones also, there is not kind of information that the NSA cant eavesdrop on one way or another, this is why in the USA there is a big debate right now about making the NSA go through a quirk and get an authorization before they eavesdrop on somebody, but overseas the NSA can eavesdrop on anybody they want, there is no restriction on eavesdropping in Greece, even if there was an American in Greece, NSA could eavesdrop on that person without going through a quirk. -- so you are saying even the crypto phones that the prime minister/government/military are using they are vulnerable to this kind of penetration you say. JB: Well, crypto phones are probably NSA's biggest targets around the world, whether or not the NSA was able to break the encryption of the algorithm to get into those phones I don't know. I don't have this information, but I know obviously NSA's key job, NSA's first job is intercepting communications, and second job is breaking codes such as the codes that encrypts that communications, and third job is making USA encryption systems. -- Thank you --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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Bush administration proposal would criminalize 'attempted'
by Sunil Garg 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

copyright infringement Gonzales proposes new crime: 'Attempted' copyright infringement http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9719339-7.html Attorney General Alberto Gonzales is pressing the U.S. Congress to enact a sweeping intellectual-property bill that would increase criminal penalties for copyright infringement, including "attempts" to commit piracy. "To meet the global challenges of IP crime, our criminal laws must be kept updated," Gonzales said during a speech before the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in Washington on Monday. The Bush administration is throwing its support behind a proposal called the Intellectual Property Protection Act of 2007, which is likely to receive the enthusiastic support of the movie and music industries, and would represent the most dramatic rewrite of copyright law since a 2005 measure dealing with prerelease piracy. The IPPA would, for instance: * Criminalize "attempting" to infringe copyright. Federal law currently punishes not-for-profit copyright infringement with between 1 and 10 years in prison, but there has to be actual infringement that takes place. The IPPA would eliminate that requirement. (The Justice Department's summary of the legislation says: "It is a general tenet of the criminal law that those who attempt to commit a crime but do not complete it are as morally culpable as those who succeed in doing so.") * Create a new crime of life imprisonment for using pirated software. Anyone using counterfeit products who "recklessly causes or attempts to cause death" can be imprisoned for life. During a conference call, Justice Department officials gave the example of a hospital using pirated software instead of paying for it. * Permit more wiretaps for piracy investigations. Wiretaps would be authorized for investigations of Americans who are "attempting" to infringe copyrights. * Allow computers to be seized more readily. Specifically, property such as a PC "intended to be used in any manner" to commit a copyright crime would be subject to forfeiture, including civil asset forfeiture. Civil asset forfeiture has become popular among police agencies in drug cases as a way to gain additional revenue, and it is problematic and controversial. * Increase penalties for violating the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's anticircumvention regulations. Criminal violations are currently punished by jail times of up to 10 years and fines of up to $1 million. The IPPA would add forfeiture penalties. * Add penalties for "intended" copyright crimes. Certain copyright crimes currently require someone to commit the "distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period of at least 10 copies" valued at more than $2,500. The IPPA would insert a new prohibition: actions that were "intended to consist of" distribution. * Require Homeland Security to alert the Recording Industry Association of America. That would happen when CDs with "unauthorized fixations of the sounds, or sounds and images, of a live musical performance" are attempted to be imported. Neither the Motion Picture Association of America nor the Business Software Alliance (nor any other copyright holder, such as photographers, playwrights or news organizations, for that matter) would qualify for this kind of special treatment. <snip> ------------------------------------------- Archives: http://v2.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: http://v2.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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[IP] Bush administration proposal would criminalize 'attempted' copyright infringement
by David Farber 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Begin forwarded message:

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Northern Light Focus
by csr＠cs.northernlight.com 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Dear Northern Light Customer, I have had the personal privilege of hearing from many of you over the past five years regarding the many different ways you have benefited from our search and content services. So it is with gratitude and hope that I share with you the new direction that Northern Light is taking today. As of January 16, 2002, NorthernLight.com is discontinuing free public access to our Web search in order to focus on delivering authoritative and timely news and archive content that you can rely on. We are refining our business to focus more exclusively on the needs of business researchers and enterprise customers. I hope you find that this change makes NorthernLight.com an even more valuable resource for your research requirements, as we simplify our service by reducing the clutter, including the advertising distractions. As consumers of quality research content, you may be wondering what this change means to you. I am pleased to inform you that our Special Collection will continue to be available for free searching and pay-per-view access from Northern Light's Web site. And in the very near future, we will be introducing a consumer subscription option to our customers, allowing you to download 50 documents per month for a small monthly fee. In addition, advanced search forms, real-time news, Search Alerts, and Special Editions will still be available at no cost to NorthernLight.com visitors. If you are interested in learning more about becoming an enterprise customer, with access to Web search, flat-rate content packages for the corporate desktop, customized usage tracking, and numerous other enterprise benefits, please contact enterprise(a)northernlight.com, or call (800) 804-6533. Or you can read more about it here: http://www.northernlight.com/docs/acct_help_enterp.html Thank you for being with us through the years, and I hope you will continue with us for many more. Cordially, David Seuss, CEO Northern Light Technology, LLC ----- End forwarded message -----

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Re: [IP] Can't we just get some answers or facts about this?
by unknown＠example.com 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

INTEL -- responding to continuedmis information on IP Please remove my name or identifying information if forwarding this to IP or elsewhere. I work closely enough to this industry to fear repercussions. Yes. This is one of the technologies used on the Pentium D: http://www.intel.com/standards/case/case_dtcp.htm It embeds a private key in each CPU. The key cannot be directly extracted, only used for signature and decryption operations. The idea is that your computer receives encrypted data from the set-top box, and can route it to a variety of other targets---but it's always encrypted when it leaves. So that might include other PCs in your home, or a television, or a monitor, or a storage device. It even works over IP, counting hops to ensure it doesn't leave your home. There is a similar technology by Macrovision which appears to also be supported. So does it *contain* DRM? Well, if DRM is policy, no. Does it contain content-protection technology? Absolutely. Does it contain technology to help restrict you from using media you purchased in accordance in fair and legal ways? Yes. ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as eugen(a)leitl.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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[IP] DO READ Can't we just get some answers or facts about this?
by David Farber 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

INTEL -- responding to continuedmis information on IP X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.730) Reply-To: dave(a)farber.net Begin forwarded message:

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[IP] Guardian Observer (London) on Google Privacy Issues
by David Farber 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1582719,00.html Our internet secrets stored for decades Privacy groups want the law changed to stop Google using, or divulging to outside agencies, the vast amount of personal data it has access to. By Conal Walsh Sunday October 2, 2005 The Observer Google took a further step away from its folksy image when it hired its first professional lobbyist in Washington earlier this year. But it turned out to be a timely move. The world's biggest search engine has been under attack on many fronts in 2005 - and its activities have spawned a cottage industry of Google critics, who complain above all that the company's dramatic rise to prominence is a threat to our privacy. Much protest focuses on the company's use of 'cookies' - pieces of programming code - which Google plants on your computer's hard drive when you use its service. The cookies enable Google to keep a record of your web-searching history. They don't expire until 2038, meaning that potentially sensitive information on your interests and peccadilloes could be stored for upwards of 30 years. It is sobering to think what fraudsters, identity thieves, blackmailers or government snoopers could do with this information if they got access to it. Privacy groups are up in arms. 'We need to re-evaluate the role of big search engines, email portals, and all the rest of it,' says Daniel Brandt, of the website Google Watch. 'They all track everything. Google was the first to do it, arrogantly and without any apologies; now everyone assumes that if Google does it, they can do it too.' Lauren Weinstein, founder of the US-based People for Internet Responsibility, says out-of-date privacy laws fail to capture the information-gathering powers of youthful but powerful new media companies. 'The relevant laws are generally so weak - if they exist at all - that it's difficult to file complaints when you can't find out what data they're keeping and how they are using it,' says Weinstein. Google says these fears are unfounded, that it respects privacy and keeps strictly within relevant privacy laws. Personal data are logged on computer files but 'no humans' access it, says the company; safeguards are in place to prevent employees from examining traffic data without special permission from senior managers. Nor is personal information shared with outsiders. All Google's records are impenetrable to hackers. Besides, say Google devotees, open access and the empowerment of the individual are central to the whole philosophy of the company; it would never seek to misuse or betray its users' secrets. Life, though, can be complicated. In repressive countries such as China, Google and other portals have little choice but to accommodate the authorities, which regularly censor the internet and spy on users. In the US, Google has declined to say how often it responds to requests for information from America's intelligence and law enforcement agencies. And there are concerns that what Google is building with its data-retention operation is a vast marketing database, which one day could be exploited ruthlessly. Simmering discontent turned into open confrontation earlier this year when Google launched Gmail, a free email service designed to compete with Yahoo and Microsoft's Hotmail. To ordinary punters, the great advantage of Gmail was the enormous two gigabytes of storage space it offered, enabling users to keep all their old messages. But Google planned to make the service pay by scanning customers' emails for keywords in order to send them targeted advertisements - a flagrant breach of privacy, according to opponents. The Consumer Federation of America demanded that Google rethink the scheme, while California politician Liz Figueroa called for changes in the law to protect users' 'most intimate and private email thoughts'. The London-based campaigners Privacy International filed complaints with data protection agencies in several countries, including Britain. The UK Information Commissioner took no action after consulting with Google, but campaigners argue that government bodies operating with a small staff and obsolete laws are no match for a technology superpower like Google, which is expanding at an almost exponential rate and continues to innovate in its use of personal data. In claims denied by Google, Privacy International's Simon Davies asserts that there is 'an absence of contractual commitment to the security of data' and 'fundamental problems in achieving lawful customer consent'. For now, campaigners may have to console themselves with a story of the biter bit. Google's chief executive, Eric Schmidt, was reportedly enraged this month when an online newspaper published his address and other personal details - having found them on Google. ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as eugen(a)leitl.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as eugen(a)leitl.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as eugen(a)leitl.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as eugen(a)leitl.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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Skype security evaluation
by Steven M. Bellovin 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Skype has released an external security evaluation of its product; you can find it at http://www.skype.com/security/files/2005-031%20security%20evaluation.pdf (Skype was also clueful enough to publish the PGP signature of the report, an excellent touch -- see http://www.skype.com/security/files/2005-031%20security%20evaluation.pdf.sig) The author of the report, Tom Berson, has been in this business for many years; I have a great deal of respect for him. --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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Bamford on the NSA and the Greek mobile phone tapping scandal
by John Ioannidis 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

As some of you may remember, there was a scandal in Greece back in February 2006 involving the interception of mobile phones belonging to high-level government officials, including the Prime Minister. The CALEA software on the Ericsson switches used by Vodafone was blamed; it had apparently been surrepticiously turned on and was copying traffic to an equal number of "shadow" phones. An thorny point in the investigation was the revelation that the "shadow" phones had also been used to make phone calls to Laurel, MD. An interview with James Bamford on the possible role of the NSA in the "Mavili-gate" was published in last Sunday's (5/8) "To Vima", one of the major Athens newspapers. I contacted the journalist, Alexis Papahelas, asking for permission to forward the article to this list, and he was kind enough to send me the original raw transcript. Here it is, very slightly edited for obvious transcription mistakes. The published article (in Greek) can be found in: http://www.tovima.gr/print_article.php?e=B&f=14755&m=A20&aa=1 -- Mr. Bamford Good Evening from Athens, thank you very much for being with us tonight. JB: My pleasure -- Let me ask you first of all, there has been a lot of discussion here in Greece about this lawful interception software, explain to me what it is, and whether the US put pressure on worldwide companies to install that after 9/11 especially? JB: Well the software is basically used to attach to commercial communication facilities, like the AT&T in the US, or whatever commercial company it is, and anything that goes over these communication facilities gets picked up, whether it is e-mail, or telephone calls and divert it to the US Government, whoever attached the equipment. -- Is it your understanding that most of the hardware companies around the world, that provide mobile telephone companies with equipment, had this installed at some point? JB: Well in the US there was a lot of requiring that US companies do it, but around the world I think there was pressure by the US for a lot of the friendly countries to the US, allied countries to do as much as they can in terms of domestic eavesdropping and this type of equipment is most useful for that. -- As you know, during the Olympics here in 2004, a lot of the US intelligence agencies were here, based here, they had a lot of equipment here, now do you imagine they were able back then to monitor conversations between mobile phones here in Greece? JB: Oh, the technology has been long in existence for them to be able to monitor mobile phone calls, the US monitors phone calls all over the world, and it has the equipment, so I would imagine that especially since there was a large US contingency at the Olympics in Athens, that they would have, the NSA would have had a presence there with an eavesdropping capability. -- Give us a sense of you know, what an NSA operation would entail here in Greece. JB: Well, what would have happened was, the US would fly over a team plus equipment. They would first scan out the best places to maybe put antennas to intercept microwave communications, communications that would carry mobile phone signals, for example. On the other hand they could have also worked out an agreement with Greek telecommunications companies, or the Greek Government to install NSA equipment on their facilities in order to monitor the communications, so it is hard to say but there is very little question that the NSA did a lot of monitoring during that period of time. -- What you are saying is very important to us, so to my understanding is that the NSA does strike, I suppose secret agreements, with phone companies around the world, is that what you are saying? JB: Oh sure, it tries as much as it can to get phone companies around the world to co-operate with the NSA in order to help its world-wide monitoring operations. -- And would it be acceptable for them also, to try to recruit some people from inside the companies, if they cannot strike such an agreement? JB: Yeah, NSA does that too it will try to make a deal, to get somebody to co-operate. In the old days the NSA would try to get a code-clerk at an Embassy to co-operate, but these days they try to get people, that have access to large databases, or telecommunications facilities. -- We have sent you e-mails, and you have an idea of what this Greek system of interception looked like. Does it tell you something, I mean how sophisticated is it, does it tell you it is a US intelligence agency, a British, somebody else? What is your assessment? JB: Well I think it is pretty much a standard communications system, in terms of mobile phone calls and so forth, they all pretty much operate the same way, it is just that it is a different frequency, maybe some different equipment, but the ideas are that the signals go from the hand-held cell-phone to a repeater and from a repeater to maybe another repeater, eventually making their ways back to central telephone exchange where the information is retransmitted out to wherever it is supposed to go, so the NSA is set up for one reason and that is to eavesdrop on communications around the world so this would not be a tremendous technological difficulty for them. -- But can you say with some certainty that this was an American operation, or it could be somebody else? JB: Well, I am just speculating because I don't know for sure, but if the NSA was over there during the Olympics, and the US almost always sends a team consisting of people including NSA people to major events around the world, where Americans are going to take part, to try to find out if there is going to be any terrorism, and one way of doing that is by monitoring the communications, that go through the air, the communications that are communicated both internally and externally from that country. -- How many mobile phone-call-conversations could the NSA monitor in a country like Greece on any given day? JB: It is hard to say. What they would probably do , is to focus on the key-links where they think that the bulk of the communications-exchanges are going to be and probably intercept those kind of communications. And once they intercept them, the NSA would have computer-facilities so that the communications would go through the computers and they are probably going to be looking for calls from Afghanistan, information that they think is very susceptible to terrorism, for example in other words numbers that they have of previous terrorist contacts. They would all be fed in the computer, and then any e-mail or telephone-call with those numbers or e-mail- addresses would be kicked out. -- Now, who translates all of these things, because I imagine it is like thousands of hours of conversations that are being transmitted to NSA. everyday. JB: Well it is, but they take in enormous amounts of communications, but filters, computerized filters sort of get rid off by 98% of it, and there is only a 2% that actually gets analyzed in the end. And those 2% are whether names in the computer, people that they are suspicious of, telephone numbers that they are looking for, e-mail-addresses, and once they get down to those, and they do have a number of people that speak a wide variety of languages, including Greek at NSA. -- What is the most technologically advanced way of intercepting mobile phone conversations? Because for a while we are assuming that the code of transmitting over the air is safe. Is it still safe or has the NSA broken it? JB: No, if the communications are traveling through the air, which they do by a mobile phone call, they are going to go a very short distance so they get to a repeater and they eventually go to a central telephone office, so again if you are able to intercept those signals as they go through the air, which you would basically just need a microwave antenna, or if you have co-operation of the company or the Government, then you can get access of that. I mean they are not intercepting the entire communications systems by entering or leaving the country, certainly, but they are probably looking at certain key communications-node, where they think there may be communications coming from lets say places like Afghanistan, or Iraq or some place like that. -- Give us a sense of the Size of NSA, in terms of the budget of people working for it and so on. JB: NSA is the largest intelligence agency in the world, and it is twice the size of the CIA, it is far more secret, and it has about 38.000 people. Again NSA's entire job, at least until recently, was to spy overseas, to eavesdrop on communications in foreign countries. So most of those people are either at the headquarters at NSA, or else in countries around the world. NSA over the years has had a number of facilities in Greece at various times, I am not sure if they have one there now, but in the past they have had bases in Greece. -- And do you think they are focusing in that area from what you know, from your research, was Greece always sort of an important target for them? JB: Well, Greece has always been a target, I think it depends on world climate how important it is at various times, I mean right now it probably has less importance than it did in other times, because now they are focusing primarily on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, N. Korea, areas like that, but if it looks like some terrorists are coming into Greece, or are operating in Greece, or if it looks like the Government may be communicating with countries that the NSA is very interested in, such as Iran, Iraq or any places in the Middle East than the NSA would be very interested. -- Let me go back to what was the Greek system and so on.You had said in previous answer that there are very few people in the world, that could actually manipulate this Eriksson software in order to gain access to this system. How many people in the world have this kind of knowledge? JB: I don't know how many people around the world, but NSA's job, that is their entire job. This agency was created for one purpose and that is to eavesdrop on the maximum matter of communications around the world. NSA could find a way to get a trapped door or a back door into say an Eriksson telephone system, you know they would do it. Because those systems are used by people all over the world. -- In this case we are talking about a very big cell-phone- company, VODAFONE, which is a multinational as you know, would they risk you think their reputation, and you know, go ahead and co-operate with NSA at that level? JB: I would think that they would not co-operate at that level, but what the NSA normally does, is it hires people that have worked for companies like that, and these people tell them how the systems work and then their job with NSA is to reverse engineer these systems, to find ways into them, so although I doubt that the head of Eriksson would co-operate with NSA, the NSA has enormous technological capabilities to find sort of back doors, or trapped doors, or ways by reversed engineering into these systems. -- Knowing how these people work there is a legal investigation, a judicial investigation here in Greece, do you think they will ever find the answers, I mean who was behind this interception, any physical evidence, any traces? JB: Well, it is hard to say. This happened in the US several times, where there has been a question, whether monitoring has been legal or not, and they have looked into it occasionally and they have found an answer as to who was involved with it, but a lot of times they do not find him. Again with NSA, NSA keeps its information so very-very secret, they wouldn't even let the judges on the surveillance court, they are supposed to prove NSA warrants about it, they wouldn't let Congress except for 8 people. Over 500 people know about it, so NSA tries to keep it extremely secret. -- You are one of the world experts in this kind of issues, so if you had to take a bet today who was behind this kind of operations in Greece? JB: I just cant say, I don't know enough information about it , all I can tell you is that NSA's job is eavesdropping on communications around the world , Greece is a target occasionally whenever they think there is something important. NSA has bases in Greece and NSA looking for indications of terrorism during the Olympics, so whether they are involved with this recent operation I don.t know but certainly they have an interest in it. -- Your advice to someone using a mobile phone, should they talk openly or no? JB: The problem, cell phones also, there is not kind of information that the NSA cant eavesdrop on one way or another, this is why in the USA there is a big debate right now about making the NSA go through a quirk and get an authorization before they eavesdrop on somebody, but overseas the NSA can eavesdrop on anybody they want, there is no restriction on eavesdropping in Greece, even if there was an American in Greece, NSA could eavesdrop on that person without going through a quirk. -- so you are saying even the crypto phones that the prime minister/government/military are using they are vulnerable to this kind of penetration you say. JB: Well, crypto phones are probably NSA's biggest targets around the world, whether or not the NSA was able to break the encryption of the algorithm to get into those phones I don't know. I don't have this information, but I know obviously NSA's key job, NSA's first job is intercepting communications, and second job is breaking codes such as the codes that encrypts that communications, and third job is making USA encryption systems. -- Thank you --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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