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Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
by J.A. Terranson 24 Dec '03

24 Dec '03

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003, Sunder wrote: > That all depends on your definition of sovereign. After all, "we" put, or > at least helped, that monster into power. No different an action than we > the many times before putting tyrants into control of small, but important > nations under the guise of "protecting democracy." <huge snip> Whether we put the mofo into power or not is not relevent: the "nation" is a sovereign, regardless of the current figurehead who purports to represent it. Note: I don't *think* that anyone here is arging that Saddam was a nice guy - we're all just arguing at cross purposes. Camp A (me) seems to be arguing from a meta [societal] position, while Camp J is arguing from a personal-dislike position. Neither camp is likely to deter the other, since our frames of reference can never intersect :-( -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin(a)mfn.org "Unbridled nationalism, as distinguished from a sane and legitimate patriotism, must give way to a wider loyalty, to the love of humanity as a whole. Bah'u'llh's statement is: "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." The Promise of World Peace http://www.us.bahai.org/interactive/pdaFiles/pwp.htm

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Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
by Tyler Durden 23 Dec '03

23 Dec '03

Well, again you've WAY oversimplified things. Indeed, this oversimplification is curiously identical to US foregin policy mistakes. Ho Chi Min, like Mao, would take guns from anybody in order to get the job done. If that meant wearing a Soviet uniform for 15 minutes, then sobeit. Don't mistake that for Eastern-European-style Soviet block "governments". Was Ho Chi Min ultimately a dictator? Sure. A Soviet-style dictator? Well, I'd argue only nominally. I'd also argue that our post World War II betrayal of Ho had a lot to do with shoving him into the arms of the Soviets, just like with Mao. (But in neither case did the association stick.) The important notion is that, unlike in Europe, China and Vietnam never had anything resembling a democracy or Parliament or anything like that. They were still largely fuedal, agrarian societies that weren't really in a position to critically evaluate the implications of Soviet-style rulership (and in fact they probably viewed it as being merely a non-Monarchic version of what they'd always done). BUT...the Soviets were providing guns and money and we weren't. That both countries were really only externally Stalinst for a brief while (ie, a couple of decades) is evidenced by the fact that both economies are as about, in SOME ways, as free-wheeling and as capitalistic as exists these days. Of course, both are still certainly authoritarian and, depending on the subject, oppressive, but this has nothing to do with their politico-economic stance per se, as is now obvious. In other words, the moral of this story is that you can't merely graft on a western political philosophy--in this case Marxism--to cultures that have unbroken traditions dating back to the stone age. It may look 'Marxist' on the outside, but internally that transplant ain't going to take root. That US foreign policy in the far east in in Indo-China during most decades of the 20th century was a complete disaster was precisely due to the views you seem to hold. It's why we didn't back Mao when even though it was obvious BILLIONS of dollars were being siphoned away by Soong Tse-Vung and the Chiang regime...it's why we backed Lon Nol to overthrow Sihounouk (bringing in the Khmer rouge), and it's why we didn't back Ho even though he fought with us against the Japanese. Had we stood back from our prejudices, respected the soverignity of those nations, engaged and offered some guns in order for them to choose their OWN government, I'd bet the era of Soviet-style government in both China and Vietnam would have been much shorter, and in Cambodia it would have CERTAINLY never existed. In other words, YOU (and people with beliefs just like yours in the US government) are responsible for the spread of communism in the far east. Now you and your friends (including, I suspect, the guy who signs your paycheck) are going to do the same thing in the near east: you're going to force many ostensibly neutral nations into the Fundamentalist Islamic camp, because you just don't get it, and think we have the right to interfere. "Well, the Soviets did it and the liberal left said it was great, so that makes it right." Forget it. Stop saying this crap and use that brain. 9/11 sucked enough in this town...we don't need another. -TD >From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)minder.net >Subject: Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam. >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:35:39 -0800 > > -- >On 22 Dec 2003 at 22:02, Tyler Durden wrote: > > If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really > > don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian > > history. > >He was not a KGB sock puppet. He was KGB. > >The indochinese communist party was run from a desk in Moscow, >and the guy behind that desk in Moscow was one Ho Chi Minh. > > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > tUqRWDkYAq3CLoQkZ14K0qF1d7QxbWlf6d2ZXjZs > 43Qc8nduD4tJh6uumE28HC7EsKfnNFvnGEYCCH0BO _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize

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[IP] Tracking devices required for hassle-free travel? (fwd from dave@farber.net)
by Eugen Leitl 23 Dec '03

23 Dec '03

----- Forwarded message from Dave Farber <dave(a)farber.net> -----

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Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
by Tyler Durden 23 Dec '03

23 Dec '03

James Donald wrote... "They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock puppet. " Uh...huh? You really get a lot of things mixed up. If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian history. Think of Ho Chi Min as, utlimately, a violent pragmatist...he was going to get his guns from whoever he could, and that's what he did. He also had Chinese guns and, during WWII, American guns (yes: We were allied with Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese during WWII). Likewise, you accused Saddam Hussein of being allied with bin Laden, which is also silly. In fact, bin Laden has regularly called for Saddam's death, and I see no reason to believe he wasn't serious. Likewise, your lambasting of Chomsky on the "Chomsky Dis" website also indicates huge and suspicious gaps in knowledge. I'm starting to connect the dots here: I dare you to read the name that signs your paycheck. -TD >From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)lne.com >Subject: Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam. >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:14:20 -0800 > > -- >On 22 Dec 2003 at 1:10, Tim May wrote: > > I, and many others, were against the war in Vietnam without > > being supporters of Ho Chi Minh or the Soviets or anyone of > > that ilk > >True, but amongst the vast mass chanting Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, >one could no more discern principled opponents of the Vietnam >war, than one can today discern principled opponents of the >Iraqi war among the Americans worrying about poor little >victimized Saddam, and the mass of Europeans jumping for joy >over the fall of the two towers. > >Amidst the pro Saddam posters on this thread, many have come >rather close to chanting "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh" -- for the >example the argument that the evil CIA deprived the third world >masses of their beloved socialism provided by benevolent >dictators, and the argument that the US "created' the Afghan >resistance -- and thus presumably every other resistance >movement against the Soviets. > > > Essentially _none_ of them were supporters of the Soviets or > > the North Vietnamese qua North Vietnamese.) > >Now I get to call you the pinko: > >They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well >knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock >puppet. And when that sock puppet was discarded to reveal the >iron fist of the NVA that had been moving its lips, none of >them were surprised or dismayed. Similarly Jane Fonda was >supposedly not a supporter of the North Vietnamese qua North >Vietnamese, yet without hesitation she lied about the condition >and treatment of the POWs she met, whom she depicted as >leniently treated war criminals. When some of those she lied >about returned home to speak the truth, she stuck to her >position, counter attacking them as hypocrites and liars, >denying that they had shown signs of starvation and torture. > >I find it strange that the speakers at your rally were so >remarkably different from the speakers at my rally -- >particularly when so many of the pro Saddam posters in this >thread sound like they are new nyms for the same people who >spoke at my rally. > >If any of your speakers really thought the NLF was something >other than a KGB sock puppet, they would have had posters of >the supposed NLF leader on their wall. Instead, not one of >these supposed supporters of the NLF blinked when the most of >the NLF vanished in the 1975 purge. > > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > vgi7SNuqDzYgX5I5Cmd4QPW+QLDM2w78B+RO1o8f > 4oxwhPbCXdnYRp30H5XOTLwLfzQyCsQo15VgpDWYW _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com

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Trusted Computing = Kevlar Doors
by Major Variola (ret.) 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

When the Trust Computing Worm (tm) comes out, will anyone recognize it as a version of the jihadist pilot who uses the impenetrable aircraft door? Just wondering. And doesn't Tom Ridge look great in Orange?

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Humiliating the Conquered, Part II
by Eric Cordian 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

If you think it was embarrassing for the former regime in Iraq to see their fearless leader getting a public louse inspection, just wait until Christmas, when America again demonstrates it can walk the streets of Baghdad with impunity. Yesterday, the crew of WWE Smackdown arrived in Baghdad to set up for their special Christmas broadcast of Smackdown! "Live from Baghdad." "The Smackdown crew with Steve Austin arrived yesterday in Baghdad at the 28th U.S. Military Combat Support Hospital to hand out gift packages to troops and give t-shirts to those injured." "World Wrestling Entertainment in proud to present a special edition of SmackDown! from Baghdad on Christmas night. Join the Superstars of SmackDown! as they have the honor of competing in front of Americas troops in what should be an evening filled with action, excitement and emotion." Goodness, where are the Donkey Carts of Mass Destruction when they are really needed. :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
by Tarapia Tapioco 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

Harmon Seaver wrote: > > This isn't a ski mask burglary. We KNOW Saddam ruled Iraq. > > We KNOW what crimes were committed. Simple syllogism. > > No we don't. We only know what the propaganda mills have told us. > Twenty years ago it was a different story. The propaganda mills were working for Saddam, not against him. <http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1599076.php> "Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard - awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff." <http://www.techcentralstation.com/041103H.html> "It appears there is another, more troubling, reason Jordan decided not to report these hideous crimes until the regime was safely out of the way: CNN didn't want to lose its on-the-ground access to a big story." Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, and countless Iraqi refugees all report similar stories of widespread torture and murder. Is it your position that these are all propagandists? Dismissing as "propaganda" any reports that oppose your argument, while accepting as truth any claim that supports it, is simple intellectual dishonesty.

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UN using Satellite Photos to track Israeli Apartheid Wall
by Bill Stewart 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3334235.stm It's fun what you can do with satellite images. The UN's using them to track the progress of the apartheid wall that Israel's building to "keep Palestinian suicide bombers out". They haven't been all that careful about whose land they're excluding.

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Cypherpunks List Info
by cpunk＠lne.com 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

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Give us at least 3 Nyms
by Major Variola (ret.) 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

. We had to get very disciplined and accept nothing less than three names." A major obstacle was simply gathering the names correctly, considering that many Arabs have four proper names, including family and tribal surnames http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-tribalcode21dec21,1,4576…

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