- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Remailer ideas
by fnerd＠smds.com 25 Nov '92

25 Nov '92

Tom.Jennings(a)f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG sez >Well, remailers are working, admittedly a bit clunky at the moment, Okay, here's something easy to implement: a "From: stripper" specifically for the cypherpunks address, like, cypherpunks-anon(a)toad.com . The point is that all you have to do to use it is to have the address. The same for the following ideas: Harder: something that takes mail to arbitrary "user ids" at its machine and remails based on them, so you could send to me at, say, sw%%smds.com(a)remailer.somewhere.com . Harder: take a long encrypted address as the user id. Do mail systems allow arbitrary length user ids? Anyway, you'd be mailing to things like: wjefa248hap94ghs39p8g4s9perspe98b9p08serhg9p8serh9sherp9hse9rp89sper898psexrg99p8ser989regp9ser9pys98per9pse8ry9p8sxyer9p8yser9p8ys9per8p9se8ry9pseyr8sezrpahw4pwa49nw84th9w8y34w456yuvw05536vue4w5vw38064vw306uw45(a)remailer.somewhere.com I realize these things have weaknesses beyond the kazoo, but wadaya think? -fnerd fnerd(a)smds.com (FutureNerd Steve Witham)

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DC-NETS & bibliography request
by Mark W. Eichin 25 Nov '92

25 Nov '92

This list is the first place I'd seen references to DC-NETS; thanks for the glossary posting explaining what the term is. Is there a published paper on them, or somewhere else I can get info on the algorithms involved? On a related note, is there a "crypto anarchy reading list" or bibliography that anyone has collected, for further delving into the terms brought up? I suspect many of the better references would only be available in electronic form, but they should still be listed... _Mark_ <eichin(a)athena.mit.edu> MIT Student Information Processing Board Cygnus Support <eichin(a)cygnus.com>

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Re: The List is YOURS, So Speak Up!
by Bob Stratton 25 Nov '92

25 Nov '92

Hi all, After Tim's stirring message about the use of the list, I couldn't help but drop a line to the list myself. I'm yet another person interested in Mac implementations of PGP, and encrypted mailers. I work for a Macintosh software company as a developer, but have spent most of the last several years working with big machines, so I haven't picked up all of the bad habits that I see Macs furthering across the Net. (Most of these have to do with writing unportable code, as if no other manufacturers' hardware matters.) I'm also sort a mailer weenie, so this talk of encrypted mailers has me quite interested. I've started studying more of the fundamentals (I've only read David Kahn's book, back in 8th grade, which was a while ago :-) I'm especially interested in the MIME/PEM issues, and fervently request coredumps from anyone who's been following those to date. My company (which I DO NOT speak for) develops TCP/IP based communications software for the Mac, so needless to say, a nice RSA-encrypted Mac mailer could fall within our purview. My company is also very interested in privacy issues. In point of fact, the VP of Engineering and I recently addressed a Virginia state assembly subcommittee for purposes of having them remove SSNs from driver's licenses.. (YAY!) I'm new to tbe Mac world, but not the mailer world. I shall try to be a resource for this list's work. There's another person here who's also interested in the GUI design for a new Mac incarnation of PGP. I see a couple of possible UI features: - Live folders, for drag and drop en/decryption - Encryption to/from the clipboard (which is basically what I'm doing now, except through intermediate files) - An MPW tool implementation, with pipes. (I suspect that I'd use this mostly for testing the 'engines') I want to reiterate the sentiment posted by several to KEEP THINGS PORTABLE. I know it's not chic for a Mac developer to say that, but so be it. Bob Stratton Engineer, InterCon Systems Corp. <strat(a)intercon.com> +1 703 709 5525 "The Constitution's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we have now."

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The List is YOURS, So Speak Up!
by tcmay＠netcom.com 25 Nov '92

25 Nov '92

Lurking Cypherpunks, My message earlier today on a scenario for the banning of cash led to about 10 responses mailed to me in private e-mail. Typical is the following (the author has been deleted, as he chose not to post it to the list as a whole): "I'm interested. I was considering removing myself from the cyberpunks list, because the traffic/info. ratio is too high (low?).. I'm glad I didn't, because your message is the type of thing I joined the list to read. I don't suppose there somewhere where I can get a 'condensed version' of the cyberpunks list, or something similar? "I've heard a bit about "crypto anarchy" (only from cyberpunks mailing list), and i'm interested. What's the next step?" You folks out there ARE the list! If there's something you want discussed, go ahead and start a new thread. Raise some issues, stir up some shit. It seems from some of the messages I got today that people think they either have little to add to the discussion, or are fearful of the consequences of posting their comments to a list such as ours. About the former point, all I can say is that the best learning comes from arguing a position and learning to defend it. Merely _posting_ a message generates added interest and piquancy about the list, I've discovered. So consider this an invitation to the hundred or so folks who have yet to post on this list! For those who are paranoid, well, chances are They already know who you are. They have files on you. Remember this, * It is not illegal to advocate violence. AND * it is not illegal to advocate the overthrow of the government. HOWEVER, * it _is_ illegal to advocate the overthrow of the government by violent means. If you stay away from this last item, you're relatively safe. (Even advocating drug use has not seemed to have much effect on the posters on alt.drugs.) In any case, the work being done by Eric Hughes, Hal Finney, and others, should give us fully anonymous posting capabilitites in the near future. Even with digital pseudonyms! (Check out the postings of "Cassandra" and "Pollyanna" for starters.) If the socioeconomic aspects of crypto anarchy interest you more than, say, discussions of random number generators, then clearly you should _post_ on those topics! And if all you have are _questions_, then by all means ask them! Those of us who post frequently on this list cannot try to anticipate your questions and concerns. I've been spouting this stuff for years and they haven't taken me away yet, nor have they [TRANSMISSION HALTED BY ORDER OF THE CRYPTO AUTHORITY] -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | PGP Public Key: by arrangement.

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One Mac feature I'd like
by dkrieger＠netcom.com 25 Nov '92

25 Nov '92

John -- While using MacPGP yesterday, I thought of a useful feature that (I hope) wouldn't be too hard to implement -- the ability to encrypt to/ decrypt from the Clipboard. This would eliminate the need for saving one's text as a file in order to use PGP... one could Copy text from any text application, open PGP, encrypt it in the Clipboard, and switch to a terminal program to Paste it to a host for mailing... or, one could Copy ciphertext from the terminal program and decrypt it from the Clipboard. dk --

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virgin key
by DELTORTO＠AppleLink.Apple.COM 25 Nov '92

25 Nov '92

Greetings CypherFolk, I'm still in Europe, researching combinations of sleep deprivation and extended train travel, but the time for return to sf.ca.us is drawing closer. I'm still temporarily off the c-punks mail alias due to technical/fiscal reasons so buzz me directly at <deltorto(a)applelink.apple.com> until January 93. Appended below is my brand-spankin'-new 512-bit public key. Give it a workout so I can see if it works (out). I have an interesting keyring from over here if anyone is interested. Will attend meeting anytime in '93 if I'm notified so we can pass the baton -er- floppy. dave del torto -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.0 mQBNAisMWqcAAAECALhs0wMpfVaVFIP/pk3MouI7X8sqpbB6eKiCoVPWBAOeMhB3 bOE8gibIgx5Gg+yTTmp5WOBXzmqmN8s2NPwzoIMABRG0LkRhdmlkIERlbCBUb3J0 byA8ZGVsdG9ydG9AYXBwbGVsaW5rLmFwcGxlLmNvbT4= =cnh0 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY-----

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Question about the MacPGP
by Fan Li TAI 24 Nov '92

24 Nov '92

Hiya, About the MacPGP, isn't it possible to sort of write a script addon to the various telecoms software? What I mean is that when you start reading mail, you click somewhere, and all input from the modem is translated direct by the script so that you can read the plaintext. But when you reply, you will have to use the telecoms' editor and upload the text... Somewhat like that rot13 thing in news really (or the VMS implemantation of it). Ciao. -Tai

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Mailing-list
by julian＠panix.com 24 Nov '92

24 Nov '92

Can you add me to the cypherpunks mailing list? --Julian Dibbell, julian(a)panix.com (Steven Levy and/or Tim May may [or may not] vouch for my worthiness, as necessary)

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Scenario for a Ban on Cash Transactions
by tcmay＠netcom.com 24 Nov '92

24 Nov '92

Cypherpunks of the World, I'm relatively convinced that the various "trial balloons" for restricting the use of encryption are part and parcel of a larger, albeit not formally discussed, plan to adopt some form of a digital cash system. Before your start cheering, it is highly unlikely that this system will the "digital cash" system of the form we have been discussing (anonymous transactions, untraceability, David Chaum-style systems, etc.). My grim scenario is contained in the message below, which I just posted to another list, the "Extropians" list. --Tim May Forwarded message:

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Scenario for a Ban on Cash Transactions
by tcmay 24 Nov '92

24 Nov '92

SCENARIO FOR A BAN ON CASH TRANSACTIONS The recent discussions about black markets, loss of tax revenues, and restrictions on the use of encryption lead me to speculate that moves may be afoot to ban or severely restrict the use of cash. Such talk of a "cashless society" comes up periodically, with some taking a religious/conspiratorial view (electronic bank accounts tatooed on our foreheads, fulfilling the "mark of the Beast" prophecy) and others talking about how the "international bankers" have already selected a system (to be implemented in a national emergency, perhaps an Emergency Order following a series of bank collapses). Some putative benefits of banning cash and replacing it with electronic versions (such as debit cards, either privately issued or issued by the government): 1. Faster and more complete tax collection, with the tax authorities and implicit partner in all economic transactions (save for black markets, but I'll discuss that later). The "faster" part will be a one-shot gain, just as the witholding tax system instituted in WWII as an emergency program was a one-shot benefit. But such an immediate gain may be quite attractive to planners faced with rapidly escalating national debt. ($4.5 trillion, increasing by at least $400 billion a year...more if the "IOUs" for social security are considered) The "more complete" part will be an attempt to recapture taxes now lost to the underground, or barter, economy. "Serious" black marketeers, or dealers in illegal substances, will of course not be greatly affected, but a shift to purely electronic money will hurt their ability to move money (unless they control the banks and S&Ls, as may be the case....but that's another story). 2. A general closing of the underground economy, separate from the issue of recapturing lost tax revenues. As the underground economy increases, especially to the levels seen in other countries, pressures to "close the loopholes" (= cash) may mount. The failing "War on Drugs" has already been used to justify many serious abridgements of basic rights; applying the same logic to creating a cashless society seems to be the next step. 3. "Welfare reform" by restricting the allowable expenditures that can be made. For example, a welfare, food stamp, or AFDC recipient could be barred from buying liquor with his or her "money." Electronic money need not be "fungible," in the sense that all forms are interchangeable--it is fairly easy to attach various restrictions to the electronic databases which hold the money. Such restrictions would meet with a lot of popular support, and so could undercut the protests a bit. (Support may also come from the "national identity card" aspects, as such a card would help to solve the problem of illegal immigrants and those who move to jurisdictions with better welfare benefits. I'm not _approving_ of this, merely pointing out a source of support for "welfare cards.") (Bypasses can still be done, as with food stamps which are sold in exchange for booze. Ironically, the flourishing black market in food stamps is a motivation for going to an "electronic welfare card," which is being talked about and which is an obvious precursor step to the eventual ban on paper money cash.) 4. Fears of the growing ease of counterfeiting may push this shift along. Color copiers are now so good that nearly undetectable counterfeiting of U.S. currency is straightforward. Attempts to embed conductive threads, holograms, etc., are helping, but the longterm future is not bright for physical money (excluding gold, which has its own problems that I won't discuss here). (Note that foreign printing presses can quite easily produce excellent counterfeit currency, for use in destabilizing foreign regimes, in economic warfare, etc. Apparently the U.S. has supported the flooding of Iraq with counterfeit currency. And Iraq has supposedly printed vast amounts of counterfeit U.S. and European currency. Digital money, cryptographically protected, is about the only protection against this threat.) 5. If the government controls and sets the protocols for electronic money, this gives them de facto control over encryption systems and protocols. Use of non-approved protocols may be considered ipso facto proof of money laundering, black marketeering, and tax evasion. The Dennning/Rivest key registration proposal appears to be some advance planning for creating a system in which the government is effectively a third party in all communications (= transactions). I suggest we look at all such key registration proposals in this light. 6. More speculatively, the elimination of cash may be used to prop up U.S. banks, which many feel are facing a rocky future. By making the banks the "mediators" of such a government-mandated electronic money system, this both "privatizes" the system and provides a new revenue stream for these powerful lobbying interests. For example, your local bank may issue the debit card and may take, say, 0.5% of every transaction. The government might then take, say, 3% of every transaction as its "cut." (The actual details are likely to be hideously complex, along the lines of the V.A.T. taxes of Europe, and so this example should only be taken as a rough example of what could happen.) Now it has long been clear to me that the future of money lies in electronic form, cryptographically protected. The prolific use of credit cards for mail-order purchases points to the need for a purely electronic form of usable money, as do systems like AMIX (which uses VISA-type credits and debits). The issue is who creates this system, and what controls exist. It seems unlikely that the U.S. government will allow "competing currencies" (one form of digital money, and arguably what we already have with various tradable financial instruments, which rise and fall in value depending on various forces) to spring into being, at least not in forms that are truly like cash. However, if the government creates this cashless society, then the government will have unprecedented control over nearly all aspects of our lives. All transactions, no matter how trivial, will be recorded, stored, and subject to analysis. A complete audit trail of all purchases, food preferences, entertainment choices, liasons with others, etc., will exist. This is the concern David Chaum has eloquently raised, and which he has been dealing with (partially) with his digital money and untraceable transactions systems. Furthermore, transactions which are deemed to be politically incorrect, and there are dozens of obvious examples to choose from, can be _outlawed_ by the mere typing of a few lines of instructions into the appropriate data bases. (For example, someone arrested for DUI tries to buy some beer..."Your transaction cannot be completed. Have a nice day." appears on the cash register. Or a pregnant woman--and under Clinton's computerized health care system this will all be known--tries to buy some cigarettes....) Reread John Brunner's amazingly prescient "Shockwave Rider" for some visions of a fully-computerized society. This trend toward a cashless society, controlled by the government, represents the greatest threat to our libery and our future I can imagine. We need to start planning to head this off. Those interested in "crypto anarchy" as one technological solution are encourage to get in touch with me. (I now have MacPGP, which makes things slightly easier than before, but it's still a pain to download files and decrypt them. The anonymous remailer services discussed on the "Cypherpunks" list should help as well.) Make no mistake, a government-run cashless society will be worse that Orwell's worst. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | PGP Public Key: by arrangement.

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