- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Anonymous Posting
by Nomen Nescio 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

Tim May wrote: > I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or > even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to > kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the > millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist > Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine. This was the remark I had in mind: Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001: > (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope > and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are > rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this... I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement. My apologies. > Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next > several years. Cuts both ways, of course. If the past is any guide, mostly the innocent would die. > And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and > Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim > YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor > potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man, > allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their > farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which > might be all they really want, oy vey! I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel, but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of land was chosen. Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism. The area is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that it's important to other people as well. Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as crazies, especially the ones from the U.S. Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is a good guide to the cypherpunks. The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like defining a "cypherpunk". It is clear that many Zionists are not religious. > And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of > Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended > Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building > any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for > example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or > legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics > have bombed abortion clinics. Agreed. Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion is murder. Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as incitement. What is insidious about charging people with organizational involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system. The organization itself doesn't stand trial. At the same time the members are not charged with any specfic crime. Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the defendant stands a good chance of conviction. It is very close to simple political repression. > The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and > Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the > modern age. And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of > them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic > homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins > of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or > otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago. But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here? I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent. Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare. Some Jewish people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?", but they do not seem to be genetically driven. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by "embracing the future". This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps I'm not getting your point. The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which one could describe as "embracing the future". Many Christians, Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this department. For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without a fuss. Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is taught. I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to find a way to not be murdered any more. After over 1000 years of abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was unsafe to live among Europeans. My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea and they'd have a country where they would have full political rights and even own land without fears of confiscation. Most peoples have done exactly the same thing at some time or other. And, there was already a sizeable Jewish population in Palestine. Do you believe that Jewish activities along these lines are more offensive than similar activities by many other people? If so, do you find them offensive because they are so recent, or is it just the unpleasant fact that American money is contributing to it? > I don't care too much if Arabs and Jews are killing each other, but > I hate like hell to see taxpayer money and armaments shipped to > ZOG-Occupied Palestine to help kill more Arabs and expand ZOG > borders. Agreed. I have better things to do with my money, too. Here's my somewhat uninformed take on the Middle East: Anything the U.S. is doing there is going to be related to oil. Support of Israel gives the U.S. cards to play with the oil producing countries. If the oil producing companies are uncooperative, Israel gets new cool weapons. If they are cooperative, then the U.S. news media start talking about the bad things the Israelis are doing. When the oil producing countries complain, the answer is probably that the Jewish lobby is so powerful that the U.S. has to support the Israelis. I believe that the Jewish lobby is powerful only to the extent that they are allowed to be. If they stood in the way of U.S. policy to any significant extent, they would be curtailed. Israel also plays a useful role for the oil producing governments - they help keep the population unified. A great deal of money flowing into the area does not benefit the populations of the countries there. For example, half of adult male Saudis are illiterate. Keeping those people focused on Israel keeps them from noticing where the money is going. Also, the rulers can accuse detractors of being Israeli spies. I do not think U.S. support for Israel has much to do with post-Holocaust compassion or with the desire to support a democracy in the Middle East or with the Jewish lobby. > And I am offended--but also amused--by the irony of European Jews > recapitulating Hitler's "lebensraum" and "Endlosung" solutions so > soon after WW II ended. Yes, Jacobo Timerman ("Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number") said the same thing a few years after he fled to Israel from Argentina. He made himself somewhat unpopular by questioning the propriety of the invasion of Lebanon. Some Israelis felt he was ungrateful. Sort of interesting because the original idea was that everybody Jewish could consider themselves Israeli and therefore gratitude would not be in order. (A comparison could be made to the Palestinian situation with respect to their alleged brother Arabs.) Anyway, there is probably a well understood psychological phenomenon at work. Once somebody is abused, they will tend to find somebody else, hopefully subordinate, to mistreat. I've wondered whether this effect isn't related to explain Henry Kissinger's criminality. Kissinger lost two relatives in the Holocaust, but in his political career he associated with and backed people with less than pristine credentials. For example, Nixon had connections to war criminals associated with the Rumanian Iron Guard. The military regimes Kissinger encouraged in South America tended to have people with a certain admiration for the Third Reich. The policies pursued in Southeast Asia bear certain similarities to those of the Nazis. Timerman, incidentally, described himself as Zionist. >> People carp about Tim, but I'd like to see anybody try to do one >> Tim May quality post every day for two weeks. > Thanks, even if you're a Jew-lover. Literally the truth, although not exclusively. ;-)

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China Stories - US Busting Crypto Exports, Fighting Censorship by Corrupting Safeweb
by Bill Stewart 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

The NYT and USA Today both have articles about the Customs busting two US Chinese guys for exporting US military crypto gear. It's the KIV-7HS, made by our old buddies at Mykotronx (who made Clipper.) The NYT said the Feds were worried that if the Chinese reverse engineered it, they'd be able to crack lots of our crypto secrets. Normally I'd say that if that's the case, it's really shoddy crypto - but one of the interesting things Bamford mentions in "Body of Secrets" is that one of the US spies, I think Hansen or Walker, had been feeding crypto keys to the Russians, so the crypto gear they got from the Pueblo made it possible for them to crack years of messages; perhaps they're worried about the same thing here. Eugene Hsu of Blue Springs, MO and David Yang of Temple City CA face a maximum penalty of 10 years in jail and $1M fine. Meanwhile, the NYT had a front-page story that one of the US propaganda agencies is proposing to help fight censorship in China by promoting Safeweb, which is partly funded by In-Q-It, the CIA venture fund. They've apparently got about 100 servers, and the Triangle Boy feature makes it possible for them to keep changing IP addresses to make blocking harder. I assume if there are also Chinese Spies using it, the CIA will be able to get the operators to rat out their identities... But the main use will be to feed lots of news into China. I'd already mistrusted Safeweb - not their honesty, but their technology, since they require you to enable Javascript to use their tools. Yes, it makes it easy to write cool and powerful tools, but even if _their_ Javascript is perfectly secure, the fact that you need to have it turned on leaves you vulnerable whenever you read other web pages. (Also, their Javascript is slightly buggy; I've had trouble with window size and positioning issues.) A third China Card in the news is the GAO's announcement that they suspect that Code Red originated at a university in Guangdong. Keith Rhodes, GAO's chief technologist, gave written testimony to the House Government Reform subcommittee, but didn't return US Today's calls. Of course, the real blame belongs to Microsoft - and US Today, who are getting surprisingly technical this week, has a couple of articles about the recent Hotmail/Passport hacks, in which security consultant and former Yahoo security advisor Jeremiah Grossman, who had recently cracked Hotmail in three lines of code, now has it down to one line... This is another cross-site scripting attack.

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Re: secure IRC/messaging successor
by Derek Atkins 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

gale has scaling problems to large numbers of users, in particular for group messaging. -derek Eugene Leitl <Eugene.Leitl(a)lrz.uni-muenchen.de> writes: > Gale http://www.gale.org/ seems a well thought out infrastructure. Is the > consensus "this is it", or have I missed any alternatives? -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warlord(a)MIT.EDU PGP key available --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)wasabisystems.com

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SIG: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] ANNOUNCE: PGP Source Code Now Available For Download (fwd)
by Jim Choate 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 05:13:52 -0400 From: "R. A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> To: Digital Bearer Settlement List <dbs(a)philodox.com>, dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu, cryptography(a)wasabisystems.com Subject: Fwd: [PGP-USERS] ANNOUNCE: PGP Source Code Now Available For Download --- begin forwarded text

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Re: News: "U.S. May Help Chinese Evade Net Censorship"
by jamesd＠echeque.com 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

-- On 30 Aug 2001, at 14:41, Faustine wrote: > Of course it has a trap door, that's probably the whole point > of getting it over there in the first place. And by the way, if > you're going to question SafeWeb for cooperating with CIA, you > might as well criticize ZeroKnowledge for selling a boatload of > the Freedom beta to the NSA in 1999 as well. What did they > think they wanted it for, farting around on Usenet? I bet they > had that sucker reverse-engineered and compromised in two > minutes flat. Stands to reason. I think it most unlikely that they could compromise rot-13 in two minutes flat, and as for reverse engineering, any decent crypto system makes its engineering publicly available, so that reverse engineering is quite unnecessary. No one should ever use a system that has to be reverse engineered. --digsig James A. Donald 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG vmwKl1+31thMlrC2hl4XzwiD6EPSMqrBX8OqN5J0 4qFXhFjCIcqlGNHPzxbUC4Kfz95pkdg5H60E8+j1v

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Fellow PPL associate
by Details Instantly 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

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Re: Anonymous Posting
by Anonymous Coredump 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

Tim May wrote: > I don't recall the context, but I don't have any such friends or > even acquaintances. Even those I know on the Far Right don't want to > kill _all_ Jews, just the pesky freedom-stealing ones, and the > millions who form the Zionist Occupation Government in the Zionist > Entity of ZOG-Occupied Palestine. This was the remark I had in mind: Tim May wrote on August 16, 2001: > (I know folks who think Judaism is in fact far worse, and who hope > and pray for the day when 4 million Jews in Occupied Palestine are > rounded up and liquidated. I take no position on this... I see now that "all Jews" mischaracterized your statement. My apologies. > Add nerve gases and biological agents to the mix over the next > several years. Cuts both ways, of course. If the past is any guide, mostly the innocent would die. > And I won't shed a tear, as those who left New York and Oslo and > Berlin and Phoenix to go to some tiny patch of land which they claim > YHWH the Terrible granted to the sons of a desert minor > potentate--this all revealed in a hash dream by an old man, > allegedly--well, they were fools in 1948 to kick Arabs off of their > farms and out of their homes. The Jews will suffer mightily. Which > might be all they really want, oy vey! I've known very few Jewish people who believe God gave them Israel, but it clearly has something to do with why that particular patch of land was chosen. Maybe it's the Schelling point of Zionism. The area is symbolically loaded for Jewish people, but the downside is that it's important to other people as well. Most Israelis that I've known see the religiously based Zionists as crazies, especially the ones from the U.S. Saying that Israelis are a certain way because there are people in Israel with certain views is as reasonable as saying that Jim Bell is a good guide to the cypherpunks. The exact nature of Zionism seems hard to pin down, sort of like defining a "cypherpunk". It is clear that many Zionists are not religious. > And I know many people who support, as I do of course, the right of > Aryan Nation(s) to do their thing without lawsuits from offended > Jews and liberals. Last I heard, Aryan Nation(s) was not building > any gas chambers. Shutting down the "organization" due to, for > example, the murder of Allan Berg in Denver makes no more moral or > legal sense than shutting down the Catholics because some Catholics > have bombed abortion clinics. Agreed. Many prominent Catholics have publicly declared that abortion is murder. Applying the same level of integrity as has been applied in criminal trials of technical people, this could be seen as incitement. What is insidious about charging people with organizational involvement is that it bypasses the criminal justice system. The organization itself doesn't stand trial. At the same time the members are not charged with any specfic crime. Thus, the trial can consist of little more than innuendo and the defendant stands a good chance of conviction. It is very close to simple political repression. > The Jews lacked their equivalent of a Reformation, the Lutheran and > Calvinist revolution in thinking which laid the groundwork for the > modern age. And instead of moving on, embracing the future, many of > them retreated to a desert land they thought of as their historic > homeland, never mind that more Polish blood flowed through the veins > of Jews born in Krakow than blood from their ancestors who fled or > otherwise left Palestine 1500 or more years ago. But aren't you the one bringing up the racial purity theory here? I've never known a Jewish person, and I've known many, who spent any time worrying about the genetic purity of their Jewish descent. Presumably they exist somewhere, but the breed is rare. Some Jewish people do seem to have long discussions about "What is a Jew (sic)?", but they do not seem to be genetically driven. I am having a little difficulty understanding what you mean by "embracing the future". This strikes me as a straw man, but perhaps I'm not getting your point. The Jewish community, even the Jewish religious community, does not seem to have had any problem accepting scientific discoveries, which one could describe as "embracing the future". Many Christians, Protestant and otherwise, have had serious problems in this department. For example, the theory of evolution was accepted without a fuss. Even in Jewish religious schools, the theory of evolution is taught. I think the idea behind going to Palestine and founding Israel was to find a way to not be murdered any more. After over 1000 years of abuse ending with 2/3 of the group being killed, it doesn't seem unreasonable that many of the survivors would conclude that it was unsafe to live among Europeans. My guess is that they figured they could just sort of push the Arabs aside and after a bit of fuss, everybody would get used to the idea and they'd have a country where they would have full political rights and even own land without fears of confiscation. Most peoples have done exactly the same thing at some time or other. And, there was already a sizeable Jewish population in Palestine. Do you believe that Jewish activities along these lines are more offensive than similar activities by many other people? If so, do you find them offensive because they are so recent, or is it just the unpleasant fact that American money is contributing to it? > I don't care too much if Arabs and Jews are killing each other, but > I hate like hell to see taxpayer money and armaments shipped to > ZOG-Occupied Palestine to help kill more Arabs and expand ZOG > borders. Agreed. I have better things to do with my money, too. Here's my somewhat uninformed take on the Middle East: Anything the U.S. is doing there is going to be related to oil. Support of Israel gives the U.S. cards to play with the oil producing countries. If the oil producing companies are uncooperative, Israel gets new cool weapons. If they are cooperative, then the U.S. news media start talking about the bad things the Israelis are doing. When the oil producing countries complain, the answer is probably that the Jewish lobby is so powerful that the U.S. has to support the Israelis. I believe that the Jewish lobby is powerful only to the extent that they are allowed to be. If they stood in the way of U.S. policy to any significant extent, they would be curtailed. Israel also plays a useful role for the oil producing governments - they help keep the population unified. A great deal of money flowing into the area does not benefit the populations of the countries there. For example, half of adult male Saudis are illiterate. Keeping those people focused on Israel keeps them from noticing where the money is going. Also, the rulers can accuse detractors of being Israeli spies. I do not think U.S. support for Israel has much to do with post-Holocaust compassion or with the desire to support a democracy in the Middle East or with the Jewish lobby. > And I am offended--but also amused--by the irony of European Jews > recapitulating Hitler's "lebensraum" and "Endlosung" solutions so > soon after WW II ended. Yes, Jacobo Timerman ("Prisoner Without a Name, Cell Without a Number") said the same thing a few years after he fled to Israel from Argentina. He made himself somewhat unpopular by questioning the propriety of the invasion of Lebanon. Some Israelis felt he was ungrateful. Sort of interesting because the original idea was that everybody Jewish could consider themselves Israeli and therefore gratitude would not be in order. (A comparison could be made to the Palestinian situation with respect to their alleged brother Arabs.) Anyway, there is probably a well understood psychological phenomenon at work. Once somebody is abused, they will tend to find somebody else, hopefully subordinate, to mistreat. I've wondered whether this effect isn't related to explain Henry Kissinger's criminality. Kissinger lost two relatives in the Holocaust, but in his political career he associated with and backed people with less than pristine credentials. For example, Nixon had connections to war criminals associated with the Rumanian Iron Guard. The military regimes Kissinger encouraged in South America tended to have people with a certain admiration for the Third Reich. The policies pursued in Southeast Asia bear certain similarities to those of the Nazis. Timerman, incidentally, described himself as Zionist. >> People carp about Tim, but I'd like to see anybody try to do one >> Tim May quality post every day for two weeks. > Thanks, even if you're a Jew-lover. Literally the truth, although not exclusively. ;-)

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SIGINT Law in the US
by John Young 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

Lawrence Sloan writes in the Duke Law Journal http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?50+Duke+L.+J.+1467 ----- "The various allegations surrounding ECHELON can be roughly grouped into two categories. The first set of allegations, coming primarily from Europe, concerns the use of the ECHELON system to conduct economic espionage on behalf of American companies. The second set of allegations involves the illegal use of ECHELON to collect intelligence about American citizens. This second set of allegations will be the focus of this Note. In a society such as ours, which considers privacy and freedom from intrusive government to be fundamental values, the prospect of the American government spying on its citizens is extremely troubling. These allegations raise questions about the sufficiency of the legal restrictions placed on the collection and use of signals intelligence. The use of national intelligence assets to conduct industrial espionage for the benefit of American companies over their foreign competitors is controversial, but that issue turns primarily upon matters of policy rather than law. This Note will focus on the legal restrictions on signals intelligence (SIGINT) activities and, thus, will set aside the primarily policy-driven question of using national intelligence assets to conduct economic espionage." -----

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The Tim May Question
by Anonymous 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

In another message Tim wrote: >On Sunday, August 26, 2001, at 12:11 AM, Reese wrote: >> It's easy to stay on topic, or on a topic, it's another thing to be >> appropriate. Tim is good, but easy improvement is within reach, as >> you sort of noted. > > Fuck off. I'll take constructive criticism from people who are > better writers than I, or at least in the same ballpark. > > But not from those who have left no lasting impression. I'm not sure if Reese was replying to one of my messages, but this obsession less productive posters have with Tim is peculiar. Looked at as an engineering problem, one tends to look at the underperforming components. Let's say you are running a steel mill, and the average uptime of your blast furnaces is 10%. One is 95%. Nobody would spend their time trying to get the last 5% out of the best furnace. Anybody would look at it and figure out how to get the other furnaces performing. So, some other force is at work. One candidate is the usual tedious resentment that some people feel towards people they see as smarter, more knowledgeable, and more creative than themselves. This sort of behavior is deeply repugnant to me, much more so than occasional political incorrectness. Another candidate is that certain people see Tim as somehow their leader (or something), therefore making him accountable in some way. Given that Tim is not anybody's leader and doesn't seem to want to be, this is less repugnant than it is ridiculous.

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Oppose the Expansion of Government Secrecy!
by Matthew Gaylor 01 Sep '01

01 Sep '01

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