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Slashdot | Further Updates On Terrorist Attack
by Jim Choate 12 Sep '01

12 Sep '01

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/12/0251205.shtml -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ natsugusa ya...tsuwamonodomo ga...yume no ato summer grass...those mighty warriors'...dream-tracks Matsuo Basho The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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[psychohistory] What can a Society Do? (fwd)
by Jim Choate 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:17:01 +0800 From: "Chen Yixiong, Eric" <cyixiong(a)yahoo.com> Reply-To: psychohistory(a)yahoogroups.com To: extropians(a)extropy.org, "Msal-Politics(a)Yahoogroups.Com" <msal-politics(a)yahoogroups.com>, "Langmakercafe(a)Yahoogroups.Com" <langmakercafe(a)yahoogroups.com>, "Psychohistory(a)Yahoogroups.Com" <psychohistory(a)yahoogroups.com> Cc: Personal_Discourses(a)yahoogroups.com, sociologistics(a)yahoogroups.com Subject: [psychohistory] What can a Society Do? From: Extropians List Originally: RE: TERRORISM: looking for solutions > As some of my posts to the list over the years have shown one of the > big problems I think we will face in the future is "trustability". > How do you trust that you will not be betrayed and/or damaged > by other entities whose inner workings you cannot verify. The concept of trustability has its roots in Game Theory. >From what I know of Game Theory, I can draw some conclusions: 1) Without trust, a society will function only on its lowest denominator, if we consider it a society at all. People will only look out for their self-interests and would not perceive to preemptively strike those they perceive as a threat, to ensure their own survival. 2) To create trust without a free information flow, the most common solution would require establishing a hierarchy. In such an organization (e.g. Governments), by virtue of the inequality of power, can track and punish individuals who infringe on trust and thus maintain a working level of trustfulness (and also a related concept called security). 3) A society without any structure, if it has to function efficiently, would have to self-create a Government. thus, anarchism would not work because it would sow its seeds for its own destruction. Humans have an instinct to form groups (of whose's members they can trust much more than others) thanks to evolution selecting out anti-social humans. Notes: Godel's Incompleteness Theorem forbids any system that claims to cater for all people in all situations. Surely, the claims by capitalist-anarchists do not work because of such. While the Theory of Evolution may *appear* to apply to human society, it fails (as the Theorm predicts) to apply to human societies because humans can and will think out of the system. Placed in simple terms, humans can and do exploit the social systems they encounter. This ability confers the ability to lie, to see through paradoxes and to "make-believe", and confers the greatest difference between a human and a Turing machine. Evolution Theory applies well only to beings simple enough to remain within the system rules. 4) The fastest way to create trust would require the removal of the ability to make deceit in all of us, or our disire to do so. While we know this has high impossibility, we can approximate something like that by: a. Having a free flow of *all* information, including what we consider as private b. Having a group of people capable of handling such free flow of information (such as those not prone to gossip) c. the exclusion of people who refuse, or has insufficient ability to participate in such open-ness Notes: There does exist groups of people who do not, or cannot make deceit. Please visit www.autism.org for more information. Considering this point further, you may want to refer to the Theory of Sociologistics [sociologistics.webhop.org] I base my assumptions on the above three conclusions that I can draw, and with some other goals. These include: 1) The Freedom to Self-Actualisation [similiar: The right to (lead a meaningful) life] Those of us with sufficient intelligence to wonder about the purpose or meaning of our life, has the potential and probably the disire to lead a life in accordance to one's purpose. In our societies, we often cannot do so because we do not have a proper social system that allows (or even recognises) this. For instance, a lot of us have to work in jobs we dislike so that we can just survive. Someone once wrote that a life not worth writing about does not worth living too, yet too many of us have to lead such lives without a means to reject or escape from it. Project Sociologistics aims to create a social system (in theory) that supports such a fundamental "right", as long as such pursuit of self-actualisation aims to understand the universe and conducted in an ethical manner. This means that as a astrophysicts, one will not need to play politics to gain funds, but merely to allow others to evaluate one's proposal in an open and logical manner. It means your can pursue your projects of seeking knowledge without worrying about survival, or making a living, lack of resources, or other irrelevant barriers that stop it, at least in theory. 2) Freedom from Mundane Issues Our societies operate with such a high level of inefficiency that I find it amazing that we managed to achieve so much despite such inefficiencies. The largest contributor of inefficiency lies with the Governments which impose rules to maintain the operation of our societies within their pre-defined "safe" limits. Not recognizing Godel's Theorem, these Governments create rules that don't work, or work poorly. These governments make things worse by: a. not utilising adequate Information Systems b. allowing public contribution c. allowing full public disclousure of their internal workings d. applying the latest in social research e. and most importantly of all, discouraging public participation directly and indirectly (such as by establishing a complex system of rules and organisations that removes the ability or individuals to act) As such, those who control Governments gain opportunities to abuse their power, and those controlled by Governments, meanwhile, have to put up with inefficiencies that can sometimes have such severity that it threatens their lives. While there exists people who believe that the solution lies with abolishing Governments as we know them, their solution of anarchism still cannot solve the same fundamental issue with the human ingenuity at systems exploitation. Meanwhile, some of the more moderate advocates of individual empowerment believe that the idea of using the system of "checks and balances" and forming a minimum Government would solve the problem. However, their rules of ensuring no abuse will not work, due to Godel's Theorem. Thus, any system based on rules alone cannot work, neither can a system merely based on symmetrical power (i.e. anachism) as such symmetries have very low stability. I realised that the key could lie in the members of a society. Even thought sentient beings such as humans, capable of trans-Godel self-referential thinking, must have internal inconsistencies since they can experience a more or less complete range of experiences, they can keep the inconsistency as low as possible by training in science and logic. In such a manner, they can control their inconsistencies (such as by applying it to creative problem solving) instead of letting these run amok such as in wars or the latest terrorist bombing. I label such people as rational people, and these, would no doubt have the qualifications to participate in the New Colony project (i.e. the applied form of Project Sociologistics). Even though they still have inconsistencies, they can operate below the threshold of chaotic social functioning, and thus we can design bare minimum systems that can support them and let them develop the rest by themselves without worrying of systems exploitation. They will understand that, if they have to choose to sacrifice some of their self-interests (such as by giving up opportunities to let the more needy have them first) in order to maximise the public good. 3) Freedom to Transcend this goes beyond the freedom to think, or of free speech. If you notice, the three freedoms overlap each other. The provision of this freedom allows people to seek to transcend themselves, for instance, uploading their minds into another (probably electronic) medium so as to gain various advantages. In this society, we shall not overly concern ourselves with the concept of "God" getting angry at our self-experimentation, or the prejudice against sentient computers. We shall bravely go where no one has gone before in our exploration of the Universe. 4) Freedom to Trust What good would we, to live in a society of whom members we cannot trust. This freedom provides for high levels of trust among a society's own members, such as by disclosure of all data each one has on everything. It facilitates, via unity, the ability to execute projects that require many people. If everyone will trust each other like a mother with a child, our societies will have much lesser problems. In practice, new members will usually enjoy a lower level of trust than incumbent ones, and spies could exist, but how we will solve this issue and related others, would come in the paper of Sociologistics and not in this article. This has a lot of overlap with the (unlisted) Freedom to Publish (or "Free Speech"), where one can publish one's views freely. With the freedom to trust, we no longer perceive publishing views as a "right", but as an obligation to help other members achieve more knowledge. 5) Freedom of Non-Interference Last but not least, this last freedom aims to take into account people with other goals and beliefs. This aims to respect tha choices by people, even if they choose a path fraught with excessive suffering than one which allows them to transcend. This applies to the society both ways, in that it will not interfere in other's affairs if they don't interfere with it, and the hope that others will also comply with this rule. This also applies on the microscopic manner, where one seeks not to interfere with each other's activity unless one has his or her interests threatened. In my writings on the Paradox of Free Speech & Integration, I had shown that a society with even one irrational individual can wreak havoc with the implementation of "Free Speech" by introducing conflicts, which one must resolve by censorship (and thus go against free speech) or expulsion of that individual. Now, I can add the option of a difficult process of working within the irrationality to resolve the issue. Notes: The current version, and various parts of the Theory itself, requires a significant rewrite to integrate Godel's Theorem and the concepts of Game Theory into them. I recognize the limitations of my knowledge and ability and thus aim to progressive update and complete the theory as much as I can. Meanwhile, my hopes for higher level of participation seems to have diminished for now. Clearly, creating an independent rational society by taking over another nation would just spur military action, but also face uncooperation among the irrational people who would break the system of trust. Hence, I recommended, and continue to recommend, the setting up of a colony in unclaimed or purchased land or space. Making a colony work gets difficult enough, but having to fend off military attacks while doing so, will make it almost impossible to work. Converting an irrational to an rational one would sounds so impossible that I think this problem does not have enough worth to justify assigning our computing resources to solve it. hence, I hope with this posting, to provide some hints on how we can construct a society based on trust. I hope it helps. Please read the paper, or part of it, before formulating the reply, as you could contribute redundant points that I would find reluctant to reply due to insufficient time. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/VjIolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-~> to unsubscribe from this group, send a blank message to mailto:psychohistory-unsubscribe@egroups.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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800 service affected? (fwd)
by measl＠mfn.org 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:19:45 -0700 From: Roy <garlic(a)garlic.com> To: "nanog(a)merit.edu" <nanog(a)merit.edu> Subject: 800 service affected? According to Genuity: "In response to today's tragic events, the Federal Communications Commission has shut down all non-critical 1-800 numbers around the country." I haven't seen any sign of this.

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Ben-Laden Demolition
by osama_ben-laden＠hushmail.com 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

Ben-Laden Demolition delivers 4 generations of demolition excellence. You always receive prompt and efficient service at the best possible price. Fully licensed, bonded and insured, Ben-Laden Demolition specializes in exterior, selective and fire damage wrecking. We can handle any project: Commercial, Governmental, Industrial, and Bridges. Ben-Laden Demolition is ready to be your most dependable and versatile player on your destruction team. Call today for a free consultation, estimate or project solution. Osama CEO, Ben-Laden Demolition "When it absolutely, positively, has to be demolished today!"

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Re: Ben-Laden Demolition
by keyser-soze＠hushmail.com 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- - ----- Original Message ----- >Ben-Laden Demolition delivers 4 generations of demolition excellence. You always receive prompt and efficient service at the best possible price. Fully licensed, bonded and insured, Ben-Laden Demolition specializes in exterior, selective and fire damage wrecking. We can handle any project: Commercial, Governmental, Industrial, and Bridges. Ben-Laden Demolition is ready to be your most dependable and versatile player on your destruction team. Call today for a free consultation, estimate or project solution. > >Osama >CEO, Ben-Laden Demolition >"When it absolutely, positively, has to be demolished today!" You might to add that you're available for parties and Hollywood special effects productions (the collapsing towers reminded me of Independence Day). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Hush 2.0 wmAEARECACAFAjuevpwZHGtleXNlci1zb3plQGh1c2htYWlsLmNvbQAKCRAg4ui5IoBV nxPuAJ4my/KxpPzWo2IbH75FoqOtiO/ioQCfWMSBvsIoNs1rHFdyYea4LfT6gV0= =OyCW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Manhattan Mid-Afternoon
by Jim Windle 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

I have been out trying to give blood. At this point all hospitals and blood donation centers have been inundated with volunteers and are only taking Types O+ and O- which are the universal donor types. Anyone in the area with those types should try to donate today. They are asking the rest of us to come back tomorrow or later in the week as they expect the need for blood to be protracted. All the subways were closed but are now running again as are the city buses, the bridges and tunnels are still closed to non-pedestrian traffic I hear. Most businesses have closed for the day and sent people home who are all walking on the street. Banks, drugstores and grocery stores are still open, and busy. Passing the &th regiment armory on Park Ave, the national guard are reporting apparently to help in cordoning off and cleaning up the WTC area. I also stopped at the grocery store on my way home, it was crowded, a bit more than the last blizzard, but there are still items on the shelves. There is a small amount of non-official traffic, but a number of streets are closed off. I did however see a couple of lage cranes headed downtown. Some street with power sub-station or telephone switching facilityes are closed off and barracaded with NYC garbage trucks or Dept. of Transportation concrete mixer trucks. There are a handful of F-15's circling over Manhattan, the r! est of the normal overhead air traffic is nonexistent at the moment. Police and police auxilary are out directing traffic at major intersections, manning barricades and walking about answering questions. I have not been south of mid-town so I can't speak of lower Manhattan where the attack was but here there has been no "panic". The sidewalks are very crowded, people are somber and tense but don't seem to anticipate anything else here in the city and ae quite willing to help if possible. The lines at both the Manhattan Blood center and at Lennox Hill Hospital were around the block with people waiting to donate blood. The plume of smoke is still rising and plainly visible from any rooftop and at ground level looking down the avenues. So far the infrastructure of the City seems to be handling things. The broadcast tower at the WTC is gone so some broadcast TV and radio are out, but other local stations are still on the air and the cable feed appears unaffected. The subways are not running but were apparently shut down for fear of a terrorist act. The subway line does not run through the WTC anyway. The PATH train to NJ does however. It is apparently out but how badly or if at all the tunnels were damaged I cannot say. All the financial markets are closed, it is not clear when the stock exchange will reopen, I have heard a rumor it may close for the week. It is not close enough I think to have been damaged but it seems that all downtown is shut off and will be for some time until the the fire is under control and the area has been cleaned up, that could be a while. Phone and intern! et service is still up though the network is burdened, earlier today I had some difficulty getting a dial tone but not now. Obviously the City has been the target of a major terrorist attack, but except for a few people fleeing immediately after the attack I have heard of no one leaving. The official response seems to have been very efficient in terms of deploying to protect other potential target, particularly the city's infrastructure. I cannot speak of the response at the WTC not having been there but it seems they have called in everyone and everything that can possibly be of use in the situation though with an attack of this magnitude that still may not be enough. Jim Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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Eyewitness Account Of The WTC Attack: A Hard Rain By Jonathan Wallace
by Matthew Gaylor 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

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Cypherpunks and terrorism
by Nomen Nescio 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

The terrorist attacks present a real-world situation which has ties to the recent discussion about morality. What are the roles of we who provide technology that aids terrorists as well as honorable people who seek the shield of privacy? Do we bear a share of the responsibility for the deaths and other consequences of terrorist attacks such as we have seen today? Today, remailer operators are shutting down their services. Why? Do they feel shame and guilt at providing a service which could foster destruction? Maybe they should have thought of that before deciding to run a remailer. Or are they merely fearful of being blamed for the attacks or their aftermath? That would be a rather cowardly action, to run a service which can cause harm but to run and hide as soon as the heat is on. (Thankfully, a number of remailer operators continue to courageously offer their services.) It is likely that the effects of the attack will include restrictions on American freedoms. Since the attacks were all carried out by hijacked airliners, chances are that this is where security will be focused. Increased security checks for passengers and employees are a certainty. There may be some additional measures with wider implications. Perhaps we will finally see a national ID card which must be carried at all times and shown on demand to law enforcement personnel. Workers in sensitive industries may have to go through more stringent background checks. At this point there is no indication of any significant Internet component, so it is not too likely that we will see new restrictions there. The net result is a decrease in the freedom that we all cherish. This is a paradox. The technologies we support can lead to violent actions which end up hurting our goals. The question we must all face, then, is whether we are doing more harm than good? How much good do remailers and encryption do, balanced against the harm which they can cause? We should all reflect on this. We must be sure that our actions promote our goals and not set them back.

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Re: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline
by Greg Broiles 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

While it's understandable that people want to avoid being swept up in hysterical backlashes against people involved in this morning's terrorist activity, it's worth remembering - especially for people interested in aiding law enforcement - that a lot of investigations begin and move forward with anonymous tips which are later corroborated by witnesses willing to testify. Given the clear indifference for human life shown by the terrorists, the ordinary witness-protection steps taken by law enforcement may not be comforting enough to allow aiders and abettors of this morning's actions to report their knowledge with confidence - so it may be more important than ever that the remailers continue to operate. Given that, does anyone have any tips for compiling the current Mixmaster release under FreeBSD or OpenBSD? The make fails for me on both platforms - it looks like a failure related to the recent integration of OpenSSL into the standard BSD distributions, which I've been unable to remedy thus far. At 01:17 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, R. A. Hettinga wrote: >Status: U >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:42:22 -0400 >To: politech(a)politechbot.com >From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> >Subject: FC: Anonymous remailer operators start to take remailers offline >Sender: owner-politech(a)politechbot.com >Reply-To: declan(a)well.com > >[From a remailer operators mailing list. The discussion arose in response >to the attacks. --Declan] > >******** > >From: Len Sassaman <rabbi(a)quickie.net> >Subject: status of randseed >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:40:37 -0700 (PDT) > >Randseed's been taken offline, as a precautionary measure. All mail >currently destined for randseed will be bounced. > >We'll be back online at sometime in the future > >******** > >From: "J.Francois" <frenchie(a)magusnet.com> >Subject: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:46:37 -0700 >Organization: MagusNet, Inc. Design * Develop * Integrate > >I no longer run an anon remailer but I still operate a public proxy. > >By now everyone is aware of the bombings here in the USA. > >So, do we suspend anon communications channels during the crises or do we stay >operational. > >Opinions? >-- >Jean Francois - JLF Sends... >Once at a social gathering, Gladstone said to Disraeli, >"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some >vile disease". Disraeli replied, "That all depends, Sir, upon >whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." > >******** > >From: Len Sassaman <rabbi(a)quickie.net> >Subject: Re: Opinions on Operations due to bombings. >To: <jlf(a)magusnet.com> >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:23:44 -0700 (PDT) > >I'm not concerned that the remailer network is, was, or will be used by >the actual terrorists. What concerns me is the assholes who will >inevitably send bogus threats, tips, and other noise to various news >groups, federal offices, and officials. > >I don't want to get caught in the middle of this. I'm sorry. I'm currently >unemployed and don't have the resources to defend myself. At this point >in time, a free-speech argument will not gain much sympathy with the feds, >judges, and general public. > >And investigators don't need more noise to sort through. They'll have >enough as it is. > >I'd like to see remailers continue operating. But this needs to settle. >I may put mine into middle, mix only mode if I feel up to it.. > >******** -- Greg Broiles gbroiles(a)well.com "We have found and closed the thing you watch us with." -- New Delhi street kids

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Less talk, more action
by attila! 11 Sep '01

11 Sep '01

This is not the time to "investigate" and "blame" --it's time to turn Iraq into a glass parking lot and Afghanistan into a cinder. It takes less than 30 minutes to re-target and deliver the ordnance... I'll settle for the Casablanca Inspector: "round up the usual suspects". Anything less than a dramatic response of 'shoot first and ask questions when there is silence' is insufficient. Bin Laden may have been capable of placing the hijacking teams, but Iraq is the clear beneficiary. Bin Laden may get revenge, but Saddam gets an opening. A ground war against Iraq's legions would be foolish --the Gulf war was won against his hordes by pulverizing them with carpet bombing and demoralizing them --by the time our troops moved, there was virtually no resistance. I'm automatically ruling out North Korea (not capable); Iran (enough problems of their own and not capable of sustained action); Russia (not in their best interests); and China (could not afford the economics of war). Bin Laden is bent on revenge, and Saddam is a megalomaniac who does not care if his people are targeted. If Bush fails to take a dramatic step, eg: incinerate Baghdad, then the talking heads will be playing Neville Chamberlain; the UN will "condemn" the action while accusing the US of creating the conditions which brought on the attack; and, Iraq and the rest of the Arabs, etc. have the opportunity to play counter-threats.... If the US waits to retaliate, the Arabs will show a united front --if Iraq is gone before they can even start to argue among themselves, there will be muted satisfaction in their governments that Saddam's head was finally delivered on a platter. If the retaliation is fait accompli, nobody has time to comment --and no-one, other than perhaps the Syrians will mourn the loss of Baghdad. If Iraq is not permanently neutralized, they will power strike across Jordan and Syria into Israel --at that point, the Israelis will preemptively nuke Baghdad. From a strategic standpoint, it would be far preferable for the US to do its own dirty work than accept world opinion that the US was either a) too impotent to clean its own mess; or, b) that Israel was the pawn, thereby uniting the Arabs. We probably have upwards of 20,000 dead in NYC alone; now is not the time to be squeamish about collateral damage in foreign targets. Lastly, what the US does in the first hours will determine the US' ability to prosecute the action in its entirety. Today we determine whether or not America has the will to survive. If we falter, the whole world will kick us when we are down --eg: the third vision begins. Make us proud to be Americans, George...

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