- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

All your canadians are belong to us
by Major Variola (ret) 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

At 11:08 AM 9/21/02 -0400, Greg Vassie wrote: >> says Dr Ann Coavoukian, the commissioner of information and privacy in >> Ontario, U.S.A. "People are lying and vendors don't know what is false [or > >As a resident of Ontario, Canada, I'm quite surprised to learn that >Ontario has been annexed by the United States. Ontario, California?

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Re: Random Privacy
by R. A. Hettinga 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

At 12:32 PM -0400 on 9/21/02, Adam Shostack wrote: > | > Ontario, U.S.A. "People are lying and vendors don't know what is >false [or > | > what is] accurate, so the information is useless." > | > | As a resident of Ontario, Canada, I'm quite surprised to learn that > | Ontario has been annexed by the United States. > > Randomized geography. :) Ontario, California? Of course, California is another country. :-). Cheers, RAH -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: Random Privacy
by Tim May 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 09:29 AM, Tim May wrote: > On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 02:16 AM, Blanc wrote: > >> Interesting little article from >> http://pass.maths.org.uk/issue21/news/random_privacy/index.html: >> >> Excerpt: >> How old are you? How much do you earn? >> > > Not a new idea. Ted Nelson (IIRC) wrote about using coin flips to > randomize AIDS poll questions. ("Have you engaged in unprotected sex?" > Flip a coin and XOR it with your actual answer.) I remember talking to > Eric Hughes, Phil Salin, and others around 1990-91 about this. > > (BTW, as you probably know or can imagine, there have been crypto > methods proposed for safeguarding certain kinds of data collection, > e.g., schemes using "random coin flip protocols" for answering > questions > like "Are you homosexual?" (supposedly "useful" for public health > planners trying to deal with HIV/AIDS issues. The idea is that the > pollee XORs his answer with a random bit. His answer then doesn't > _implicate_ him, but overall statistics can still be deduced from a > large enough sample.lawmakers will try to take us down the first path. > " Cordian correctly points out that merely XORing with a random bit gives the same statistics as the random bit(s). Now that I think about it, I recollect the proposal was something along these lines: Alice is confronted with a question with a yes or no answer. She flips a coin. If the outcome is "H," she answers the question honestly. If the outcome is "T," she then flips another coin and gives that outcome as her answer. Half the population of pollees is ostensibly answering honestly, the other half is randomizing. No particular person can be linked to an answer. More sophisticated versions, as I recall, had more complicated series of coin tosses (to reduce "noise"). --Tim May

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Re: Random Privacy
by Greg Broiles 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

At 02:16 AM 9/21/2002 -0700, Blanc wrote: >But researchers at IBM think they have the solution. They have developed an >ingenious method to protect our privacy, while still giving companies the >information they crave. That doesn't sound like a solution to me - they haven't provided anything to motivate people to answer honestly, nor do they address the basic problem, which is relying on the good will and good behavior of the marketers - if a website visitor is unwilling to trust a privacy policy which says "We'll never use this data to annoy or harm you", they're likely to be unimpressed with a privacy policy which says "We'll use fancy math tricks to hide the information you give us from ourselves." That's not going to change unless they move the randomizing behavior off of the marketer's machine and onto the visitor's machine, allowing the visitor to observe and verify the correct operation of the privacy technology .. which is about as likely as a real audit of security-sensitive source code, where that likelihood is tiny now and shrinking rapidly the closer we get to the TCPA/Palladium nirvana. So, no, fancy tricks won't solve the basic problem, which is that once you give information to other people, you've got no control over what they do with it. -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles(a)parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961

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Re: Random Privacy
by Eric Cordian 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

Tim wrote: > Not a new idea. Ted Nelson (IIRC) wrote about using coin flips to > randomize AIDS poll questions. ("Have you engaged in unprotected sex?" > Flip a coin and XOR it with your actual answer.) I remember talking to > Eric Hughes, Phil Salin, and others around 1990-91 about this. [snip] > The idea is that the > pollee XORs his answer with a random bit. His answer then doesn't > _implicate_ him, but overall statistics can still be deduced from a > large enough sample. Uh, excuse me?! I can see how such an idea works if you add a random variable with a known mean to the data. A researcher could do this before storing the data, in order to protect the confidentiality of individual respondents, and still be able to compute aggregate statistics. However, if you XOR a bit with a random bit, you have something equally likely to be in either state. Even a large collection of yes/no responses XORed with random bits is indistinguishable from random data. So I am afraid I must give the prior message my coveted "Silliest Thing Said On the Internet This Week" award. <Chortle> -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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Re: Random Privacy
by Tim May 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 09:29 AM, Tim May wrote: > Not a new idea. Ted Nelson (IIRC) wrote about using coin flips to > randomize AIDS poll questions. ("Have you engaged in unprotected sex?" > Flip a coin and XOR it with your actual answer.) I remember talking to > Eric Hughes, Phil Salin, and others around 1990-91 about this. > > (However, IBM is probably busily copyrighting their new invention, > just as Intel copyright their recent "invention" of the anonymous > remailer.) > I meant "patented" in both cases. Part of the continuing idiocy of our patent system, when obvious prior art going back more than a decade counts for nothing in the blizzard of patents. --Tim May

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RE: Random Privacy
by Blanc 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

Said Greg Vassie: >> "Right now, the rate of falsification on Web surveys is extremely high," >> says Dr Ann Coavoukian, the commissioner of information and privacy in >> Ontario, U.S.A. "People are lying and vendors don't know what is >>false [or what is] accurate, so the information is useless." > >As a resident of Ontario, Canada, I'm quite surprised to learn that >Ontario has been annexed by the United States. .................. Heh-heh: the author must be lying. .. Blanc

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女性权益话题调查问卷
by guest 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

女性权益话题调查问卷 ---------闽证字第351100号 ●请您在选中的答案后的方格内打“√”或在___处填写。单位__________________________________________________________________ 通讯地址：_______市____________路_______________街_____________________号联系人________________ 职务____________________ 邮编_________ 联系电话______________________ 手机_________________________________ 您认为当今社会家庭中是否以男子为中心：是□ 否□ 不一定□ 您认为中国男子对女性处女膜的重视程度：重视□ 不重视□ 一般□ 您认为未婚女子处女膜破损的可能性是：剧烈运动□ 婚前性行为□ 儿时游戏（硬物挫伤）□ 手淫□ 先天性处女膜缺陷□ 您对当前手术修补处女膜的看法：价格（2000元以上）偏高□ 价格适中□ 手术风险□ 可以接受□ 不能接受□ 您对人造处女膜的看法：价格（230元统一零售价）偏高□ 价格适中□ 没有风险□ 可以接受□ 不能接受□ 您是否知道圣女・贞德红人造处女膜？是□ 否□ 您是从什么地方知道圣女・贞德红？报刊杂志□ 保健商店□ 从朋友处□ 其他□ 您是否想过求助于贞德红产品？曾经这样做过□ 没想过□ 想过但没付诸行动□ 您是否准备购买圣女・贞德红？购买□ 不买□ 待后购□ 您是否愿意应聘成为圣女・贞德红的直销员？是□ 否□ 您是否愿意做圣女・贞德红区域代理商？是□ 否□ 如果您对圣女・贞德红的营销策划有独特见解或其他建议，请畅所欲言！ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ●谢谢您所提供的宝贵意见，您的个人资料绝对保密，若您同意并填写通讯详细地址、邮编、收信人，将免费寄去“一封只给女人的信函”请您“玉”览。 ●真诚期待您的光临，公司将对开拓市场、营销策划提出创新的客户，给予高额奖励。以下由访问员填写：单位：____________________ 联系人：_______________邮编：__________ 通信地址：______________________________________________________________ 联系电话：______________________ 手机：__________________________ 福建贯华市场研究公司问卷设计调查问卷热线：0594---2331103 E--mail:diho@263.net E--mail:anyxp@sina.com

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Found Object at Party: Knife/pliers multi-tool
by Tim May 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

I found a stainless steel locking pliers multi-tool behind my ice chest on my deck. Someone probably used it at the party as a bottle opener and forgot it was there. Perhaps it was left on the lid of the ice chest and it rolled off in the semi-darkness when someone else opened the lid. It's one of the models made by one of these vendors: Leatherman, SOG, Gerber, Buck, etc. Describe the brand and/or how it operates, opens, etc. and I'll hold it for you or make other arrangements for you to get it back. Comment on the meeting,/party: I counted about 50 people at one time or another, peaking at about 40 during the late afternoon indoor session. A lot of people I'd never met, nor heard of. (If someone lost the multi-tool and doesn't read Cypherpunks, oh well, think of it as Darwin's blade, now mine.) Thanks to all for making for such a great meeting and later party! --Tim May "To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists." --John Ashcroft, U.S. Attorney General

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女性权益话题调查问卷
by guest 21 Sep '02

21 Sep '02

女性权益话题调查问卷 ---------闽证字第351100号 ●请您在选中的答案后的方格内打“√”或在___处填写。单位__________________________________________________________________ 通讯地址：_______市____________路_______________街_____________________号联系人________________ 职务____________________ 邮编_________ 联系电话______________________ 手机_________________________________ 您认为当今社会家庭中是否以男子为中心：是□ 否□ 不一定□ 您认为中国男子对女性处女膜的重视程度：重视□ 不重视□ 一般□ 您认为未婚女子处女膜破损的可能性是：剧烈运动□ 婚前性行为□ 儿时游戏（硬物挫伤）□ 手淫□ 先天性处女膜缺陷□ 您对当前手术修补处女膜的看法：价格（2000元以上）偏高□ 价格适中□ 手术风险□ 可以接受□ 不能接受□ 您对人造处女膜的看法：价格（230元统一零售价）偏高□ 价格适中□ 没有风险□ 可以接受□ 不能接受□ 您是否知道圣女・贞德红人造处女膜？是□ 否□ 您是从什么地方知道圣女・贞德红？报刊杂志□ 保健商店□ 从朋友处□ 其他□ 您是否想过求助于贞德红产品？曾经这样做过□ 没想过□ 想过但没付诸行动□ 您是否准备购买圣女・贞德红？购买□ 不买□ 待后购□ 您是否愿意应聘成为圣女・贞德红的直销员？是□ 否□ 您是否愿意做圣女・贞德红区域代理商？是□ 否□ 如果您对圣女・贞德红的营销策划有独特见解或其他建议，请畅所欲言！ ____________________________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________________________ ●谢谢您所提供的宝贵意见，您的个人资料绝对保密，若您同意并填写通讯详细地址、邮编、收信人，将免费寄去“一封只给女人的信函”请您“玉”览。 ●真诚期待您的光临，公司将对开拓市场、营销策划提出创新的客户，给予高额奖励。以下由访问员填写：单位：____________________ 联系人：_______________邮编：__________ 通信地址：______________________________________________________________ 联系电话：______________________ 手机：__________________________ 福建贯华市场研究公司问卷设计调查问卷热线：0594---2331103 E--mail:diho@263.net E--mail:anyxp@sina.com

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