- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Why Digital Cash is Not Being Used
by Richard Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From the keyboard of: "Michael V. Caprio Jr." <mikecap(a)WPI.EDU> > BTW, what is fungible? I've seen this term used several times, but have no > idea what it means. When I don't know what a word means, I grab for a dictionary. :-) If we're going to implement digital cash, we need to understand at least the basics of monetary systems, and the terms involved. Accordingly, the American Heritage Dictionary brings you: fungible (fun-jih-bull) adj. 1. Law. Returnable or negotiable in kind or by substitution, as a quantity of grain for an equal amount of the same kind of grain. 2. Interchangeable. fungible (fun-jih-bull) n. Something that is exchangeable or substitutable. Often used in the plural. [Medieval Latin fungibilis, from Latin fungh (vice), to perform (in place of).] - fungibility n. Richard

1 0

Re: remail 1.9
by snyderra＠dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:51 AM 5/4/94 +0200, Patrick wrote: >Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Errr, yeah. How about setting up an ftp site with this software, or an email address that will automatically send this to those interested, rather than mailing it out to cypherpunks every time? Bob -- Bob Snyder N2KGO MIME, RIPEM mail accepted snyderra(a)dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu finger for RIPEM public key When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.

1 0

Re: Announcement RE: Lobbying...
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Arsen Ray Arachelian says: > And they can kiss my fat ass for all I care. As long as crypto > is legal there ain't a thing they can use that list for > except to deny you jobs. Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as: (1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United States or abroad. Section #120.17 defines "Export" as: [paragraphs 1 - 4 skipped] (5) Performing a defense service on behalf of, or for the benefit of, a foreign person, whether in the United States or abroad; or [paragraph 6 skipped] I expect that most on this list know that cryptographic software and systems with the capability of maintaining secrecy or confidentiality of information (excluding systems using cryptography for authentication purposes only) are considered export controlled defense articles. (See section #121.1, Category XIII) Posting instructions on how to use and/or build cryptographic software to a mailing list containing foreign persons could be interpreted by some as a violation the ITAR regulations. However, I think they would have to stretch the point quite a bit, considering the fact that it is legal to export cryptography books and discuss cryptography with foreign nationals in an academic setting. Also, the posted instructions could be considered "information in the public domain" (section #120.11), which is *not* subject to the ITAR regulations. My hypothesis: The TLAs could shut down the cypherpunks mailing list (as it now exists) by dragging all the U.S. list members into court. The TLAs would probably lose the case, but they would still do a lot of damage to the lives of the U.S. list members. Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

9 9

Re: Giving Value to Digital Cash
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Perry writes: > > Most major economies are using fiat money today, so it is clear that > > fiat money will work. > > Fiat money works because guns are used to force people to accept it. > You have to pay your taxes in it, the laws are written so that all > commercial paper requires that you use it, the government makes all > its purchases in it, etc. The result of this is that it is accepted. > It is substantially harder for people to accept fiat money that > doesn't have guns barrels backing it up. Fiat money works because people can get other people to accept it, though guns are a popular way of making that happen. Most major economies use it because it's a good deal for guys with guns. You don't have to pay taxes in fiat money in the US; they'll accept real gold or silver money if you want to use it instead of the cheap paper. It's still legal _payment_ for debts, as opposed to mere tender like greenbacks. But bad money does drive out good, so people spend fiat money. Green stamps were fiat money, but somewhat useful once. US postage stamps are fiat money, and they do use guns to prevent other people from offering competing mail service, but people will often accept them as money for small purchases; it used to be a popular way of sending small payments by mail before checking accounts became nearly universal. Bill

1 0

Double betting and money laundering...
by Peter Wayner 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This is a corollary to the debate on using financial markets for laundering by placing bets on both directions. Apparently, casinos are now on the lookout for people who are teaming up to play both halves of a bet. One casino kicked out two guys who apparently were betting on pass and don't pass on the craps table. Why were they bothering? Was it laundering? Nope. It turns out that casinos hand out free "comps" based on the amount of betting that you do. This is called being "rated." They notice that you're betting $10 chips and figure that the math shows that you'll probably lose x dollars per hour. Then they give you free room and food to show their appreciation. The casinos have elaborate computer tracking systems that would scare privacy activists. They watch you're trading and try to give you free amenities worth up to some fixed percentage of what the odds say you'll lose. The article that I dug this out of said the percentage was often 30%. (I think it was in this morning's NYT.) So these guys were betting like crazy to make it seem like they were high rollers who were entitled to big comps. -Peter

1 0

TLAs, etc.
by Carl_Ellison＠vos.stratus.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > Jim Miller says: > > > > My hypothesis: The TLAs could shut down the cypherpunks mailing list > > (as it now exists) by dragging all the U.S. list members into court. > > The TLAs would probably lose the case, but they would still do a lot > > of damage to the lives of the U.S. list members. > > > > > > > ::Gulp:: Don't give 'em any ideas.. > > -- Jane Doe, subscriber, Cypherpunks List :) ;) ..one solution to a heavy mailing list... :-) Actually, we might try inviting such prosecution -- e.g., with each of us posting source code for some algorithm to the list. This is so clearly publication (ala newsletters on paper) that the case would never hold but it wouldn't hurt to have a court rule.

4 3

ghostmark trading, etc.
by Matt Thomlinson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've had quite a few messages requesting ghostmarks, and I'm responding to each of them. For the first few days (at least) I'll be sending a few (less than 4) ghostmarks to whomever wants them (and starts up their "electronic wallet" -- the client software). send me mail with your clients' key to redeem my startup offer. Remember, if you want to bet on the sonics/nuggets game, the deadline is 3pm PST. Stakes: 20gm. (you need not have a client key already generated to enter this drawing) if you have any questions about how to use my bank or where to get the software, feel free to mail. That's what I'm here for. mt Matt Thomlinson Public Relations The Phantom Exchange Matt Thomlinson University of Washington, Seattle, Washington. phone: (206) 548-9804 Check my home page -- ftp://ftp.u.washington.edu/public/phantom/home.html PGP 2.2 key available via email, or finger phantom(a)hardy.u.washington.edu

1 0

re: digital cash
by lassie!jim%lassie＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- X-date: 5/3/94 X-pay-to: Cypherpunks subscription X-amount: 36.25 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a iQCVAgUBLcftKVfzDU5jV4uhAQHV4wQAhaLeXcGW2vAbkh5nA39oOc+/OK39C9V8 5W/bmOVFfxtheZ+BKRYqJ3hewmBPIKW1epJ4+C8eh+1Jy6XllYAkFZmG8HbtsBAl kP80Fz7uTloANQahfdMajbQQum0PDuasXNX4rMkBYoQG93k2JloRJfWNBWcBPpeU djXEXYngy1M= =whUr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Make sure that you run this thru the bank server so I get a copy of my canceled check back and my mounthley reconciliation is updated. -- * Spelling errors are intentional and international * Jim Nalbandian netcomsv!lassie!jim%lassie(a)netcom.com Tempe, Arizona, USA N7SZS(a)K7BUC.AZ.US.NA No free man shall ever be de-barred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain there right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government. <-------- Thomas Jefferson --

1 0

The ITARs [support your CRYPT-IN rights!]
by a2＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Jim Miller says: > > Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as: > > > > (1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign > > persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, > > development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, > > repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, > > destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or > > (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data > > controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United > > States or abroad. > Perry E. Metzger responds: > This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about > cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a > grotesque denial of my first amendment rights. > > I wonder if I should hold an open enrollment cryptography class for > the sake of civil disobediance. > > > This is exactly the sort of issue the Cypherpunks were formed to address. CALL TO ACTION: I suggest that those of us who are able to do so immediately lay plans to offer such courses. These courses should only contain open information, and they be specifically advertised to foriegn nationals living in the US. To the extent possible we should coordinate these courses, perhaps to content, certainly to date and notification of the interested authorities. The should happen in every corner of the land. The time for the CRYPT-INs has come! [No one who supports with the government's right to suppress publically available information should participate.] -a2

1 0

PKP licensing of RSA
by Bruce C. Dovala 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi all, Just what may be a stupid question concerning licensing of the RSA algorithm from PKP. I have friends who would like to use freeware PGP but are hesitant to do so because of _possible_ patent infringement against PKP. On the other hand, they aren't crazy about paying $100 for the ViaCrypt version. (And that price will increase shortly, I believe. Does anyone know if PKP will directly license RSA for single-user use? (In other words, get the freeware version of PGP and then get a license from PKP to use it "legally"). I would imagine the license would cost less than $100 if available (why do I doubt that ViaCrypt is in this for their health?). Yes, I realize that this would mean there would be a record of licensees. And if the government chose to make "non-Clipper" encryption illegal in the future, they would have a list of people to investigate. A LONG list. Included on which would be all cypherpunks and everyone who bought a copy of ViaCrypt PGP. So what are they going to do about it? I think it is well out of their control. It would be politically unsound to investigate all registered ViaCrypt users. Obviously, this question is for the benefit of those who, for whatever reason, must remain "strictly legal". But who don't care to pay $100 for ViaCrypt's version. People who are willing to use the unlicensed freeware version (not like _I_ ever would ;) ), could continue to do so. Maybe I'm way off-base here. Don't flame me, just correct my thinking. (Though I am wearing my Nomex suit!) Thanks for any intelligent replies, Bruce

3 2