Re: Announcement RE: Lobbying...
Arsen Ray Arachelian says:
And they can kiss my fat ass for all I care. As long as crypto is legal there ain't a thing they can use that list for except to deny you jobs.
Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as: (1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United States or abroad. Section #120.17 defines "Export" as: [paragraphs 1 - 4 skipped] (5) Performing a defense service on behalf of, or for the benefit of, a foreign person, whether in the United States or abroad; or [paragraph 6 skipped] I expect that most on this list know that cryptographic software and systems with the capability of maintaining secrecy or confidentiality of information (excluding systems using cryptography for authentication purposes only) are considered export controlled defense articles. (See section #121.1, Category XIII) Posting instructions on how to use and/or build cryptographic software to a mailing list containing foreign persons could be interpreted by some as a violation the ITAR regulations. However, I think they would have to stretch the point quite a bit, considering the fact that it is legal to export cryptography books and discuss cryptography with foreign nationals in an academic setting. Also, the posted instructions could be considered "information in the public domain" (section #120.11), which is *not* subject to the ITAR regulations. My hypothesis: The TLAs could shut down the cypherpunks mailing list (as it now exists) by dragging all the U.S. list members into court. The TLAs would probably lose the case, but they would still do a lot of damage to the lives of the U.S. list members. Jim_Miller@suite.com
<<My hypothesis: The TLAs could shut down the cypherpunks mailing list (as it now exists) by dragging all the U.S. list members into court. The TLAs would probably lose the case, but they would still do a lot of damage to the lives of the U.S. list members.
If they want to waste their money on this, let'em. I'd be perfectly happy to wind up in court to defend the cypherpunks. (No I'm not a lawyer, but I certainly won't be a sucker witness.) Compared to what the DA's, and judges make, my paycheck is peanuts, and I could do with a vacation. If they want to fine me, fine, they won't be able to take much away from me as I haven't got much. They'll have to get in line with Visa as I owe my cards about $3K :-) Bottom line: it'll never happen. there's 700 cypherpunks on this list. Good luck getting all of the US members in court. It could drag on for years. By that time we should have enough pressure applied to Clipper's juggular veins to make it go the way of the Edsel.
This is most weird... the previous message of the same subject just appeared now?? Did someone forward this old message to the list? I wrote that a month ago! Is there a mailer problem?
Jim Miller says:
Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as:
(1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United States or abroad.
This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a grotesque denial of my first amendment rights. I wonder if I should hold an open enrollment cryptography class for the sake of civil disobediance. Perry
Jim Miller says:
Section #120.9 of the ITAR defines "Defense Service" as:
(1) The furnishing of assistance (including training) to foreign persons, whether in the United States or abroad in the design, development, engineering, manufacture, production, assembly, testing, repair, maintenance, modification, operation, demilitarization, destruction, processing, or use of defense articles; or (2) The furnishing to foreign persons of any technical data controlled under this subchapter (see #120.10), whether in the United States or abroad.
This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a grotesque denial of my first amendment rights.
I wonder if I should hold an open enrollment cryptography class for the sake of civil disobediance.
Perry
Are there any bills being considered for congress which would remove cryptography from the munitions umbrella ? I think I remember this being talked about earlier on this list..has it gone anywhere ? (It was needed so that US companies could compete with foreigners in this market or some such). Obviously that ammendment is going to need further application if it only affects export controls.
Are there any bills being considered for congress which would remove cryptography from the munitions umbrella ? HR3627, sponsored by Maria Cantwell. Eric
hughes@ah.com (Eric Hughes) wrote:
Are there any bills being considered for congress which would remove cryptography from the munitions umbrella ?
HR3627, sponsored by Maria Cantwell.
EFF was soliciting letter in email for Rep. Cantwell that they would print out and deliver. Are they still doing this? And what's the status of the bill?
Are there any bills being considered for congress which would remove cryptography from the munitions umbrella ?
HR3627, sponsored by Maria Cantwell.
EFF was soliciting letter in email for Rep. Cantwell that they would print out and deliver. Are they still doing this? And what's the status of the bill?
<cantwell@eff.org> still works to my knowlege, I haven't seen anything from DC to the contrary. The status is that it is sponsored and I don't know if it's gone to commitee yet or not. But it's still very alive. -- PGP PUBLIC KEY via finger! JAFEFFM Speaking & Thinking For Myself! * eagle@deeptht.armory.com email info@eff.org * *** O U T L A W S On The E L E C T R O N I C F R O N T I E R **** ***** Committed to Free Public Internet Access for World Peace *****
This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a grotesque denial of my first amendment rights. When this issue came up in a discussion on export control issues with my employer's export control guru, he said that they basically never bothered to enforce this in the case of open courses at colleges & universities (because they knew it was unenforceable and unconstitutional). - Bill
On Wed, 4 May 1994, Bill Sommerfeld wrote:
This is sick. According to this, I cannot teach foreigners about cryptography in the U.S. -- even about the open literature. This is a grotesque denial of my first amendment rights.
does that also mean that an american cannot use his/her knowledge overseas? (btw im australian and therefore know nothing about american law)
When this issue came up in a discussion on export control issues with my employer's export control guru, he said that they basically never bothered to enforce this in the case of open courses at colleges & universities (because they knew it was unenforceable and unconstitutional).
good for him
- Bill
Yours in SYNC. Robert Sturtz __ __ __/// rsturt@wilbur.mbark.swin.oz.au (Ice-Fox on irc) __/// \XX/ Vice-President of Eastern Wargamers And Roleplayers Club \XX/ -------------------------BEGIN SPOOK FODDER------------------------- kill, bomb, maim, plot, c4, sex, murder, assassinate, gun, nuke, plan --------------------------END SPOOK FODDER--------------------------
participants (9)
-
Darren Reed -
hughes＠ah.com -
Ice-Fox (aka Robert Sturtz) -
Jeff Davis -
jim＠bilbo.suite.com -
Matthew J Ghio -
Perry E. Metzger -
rarachel＠prism.poly.edu -
sommerfeld＠orchard.medford.ma.us